Transcript | Ep. 154: Ask Unladylike: Sexual Harm in Your Social Circle?
Caroline: Hey unladies, a quick heads up that this episode features mentions of sexual violence. So if you’d prefer to skip it, please do. Take care of yourself.
Alissa [00:24:38] If we want to end sexual harm, we have to be willing to call people in, we have to be willing to, you know, talk about the harmful impacts of their behavior. But if we cancel people, if we just say, like, “I want nothing to do with you, I don't stand for this,” they actually don't ever learn.
[theme music]
Caroline: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike! I’m Caroline
Cristen: I’m Cristen, and I'd describe today's episode as Advanced-Level Ask Unladylike. We are tackling a trio of listener questions about sexual-harassment deniers, friends dating alleged abusers and what to do when someone you love is accused of sexual assault.
Caroline: Whew! And to help us offer some advanced-level advice on those last two questions, we're calling on an expert and past Unladylike guest, Dr. Alissa Ackerman. Alissa last joined us in 2020 to talk about restorative justice approaches to sexual violence. We’ll link to that episode in our show notes.
Cristen: She’s ALSO just the most wonderfully thoughtful and empathetic advice-giver, and we're so grateful she agreed to come back on the show because Caroline, we needed some advanced-level help.
Caroline: We really did! But first, Cristen, you and I have a lot of thoughts for one unlady who's dealing with a type of obnoxious dude that a lot of us have probably encountered.
Cristen: Well, let's get to it. Advanced-Level Ask Unladylike is officially in session!
[stinger]
Caroline: All right, Cristen, this letter we have here is from Lindsay, it's a doozy. Lindsay writes, “I need some advice.”
Cristen: Oh, perfect.
Caroline: Yeah, I know, right? It's that's what we're here for. “I was telling my husband and a male friend of mine a story about a friend who was sexually harassed at work. A man that was 30 years her senior and her boss declared his love for her. They were both in separate committed relationships at the time. Her feelings were NOT mutual towards him. After this, she didn't feel she could work with him and felt wildly uncomfortable. Long story short, she ended up getting a decent severance package, but with a lot of heartbreak, as she loved her job. My male friend was defending the man's actions, saying that's not sexual harassment and quote, this poor guy is spilling his heart, yada, yada. Pretty much his ending sentiment was, where does it end if you can't even ask a girl out at work? The conversation continued, and I was defending her, saying that when there is a power differential, there are implied potential consequences of her declining, quote, a date from a boss. Beyond this particular anecdote, the conversation always continues with ‘everyone is so sensitive’ and ‘I'm scared I'm going to be told I’m harassing someone after just talking to a female.’ What the hell do you say to someone with this bullshit logic?”
Caroline: Cristen, where do we start?
Cristen: All right. I'm going to start with the possibly unhelpful hot take. Cristen [00:01:49] OK, so Lindsay asks, what the hell do you say to someone with this bullshit logic?
Caroline: Mhmm.
Cristen: Fucking don't say anything and just leave the conversation because this man does not care for logic, nor does he care to be convinced otherwise. I'll leave it at that.
Caroline: OK, so my, my hot take Cristen is, ditch asshole friends who won't hear you out, especially about sexual harassment. It's too important.
Cristen: Yes.
Caroline: What the fuck? OK. My my second hot take is this guy's a dick. To be honest, it sounds like your male friend in this situation is being just willfully obtuse, considering that presumably he was also on this planet when MeToo blew up in 2017.
Cristen: I mean Me Too is precisely why this guy is saying this, though, Caroline.
Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that. I think that, like, people should only care about sexual harassment because of MeToo. But what I'm saying is that like these conversations have been happening more loudly and publicly than ever before, and he should be able to distinguish the difference between like two peers on equal footing striking up a friendship or a romantic something or other and asking each other out and a fucking boss, a manager making his subordinate female employee feel incredibly uncomfortable, that is harassment. So, yeah, ditch your friend. That's my hot take. Cristen, back to you for nuance.
Cristen: OK, well, I don't know that I'm at nuance yet because I also, one thing I didn't hear Lindsay in this email is, what was your husband saying? Because I don't know why it is on you to put this friend straight because I I would hope that you maybe had an ally in this conversation with your husband. But the fact that he doesn't come up in this, hmm, slightly concerns me because the thing that I hate about this dynamic, because it happens and this is not specific to Lindsay in this conversation. This happens over and over and over again where in this situation you have two men and one woman, and the woman is having to explain to a guy why why sexual harassment is. Whereas wouldn't it be nice if if some guys really stepped into their allyship and started talking and holding their friends accountable for this shit, too, rather than making it a, quote, unquote, women's issue?
Caroline: Right. Oh god.
Cristen: So I think I did just merge from a hot take into a brief rant. But now I'm ready to transition into some nuance. OK.
Caroline: OK.
Cristen: Because I'm putting on my empathy hat, and that empathy hat is is telling me, like, OK, this is this is a worthwhile conversation to continue. I think the best that you can hope for in these kinds of bad-faith arguments, because he is making a bad-faith argument, is to just try to find out where the other person is coming from and maybe provoke some self-reflection. So what jumped out to me in this scenario is to specifically find out why this dude is so quote unquote, scared of potentially being, quote, “told I'm harassing someone,” you know? Because it's like what it reminds me of, Caroline, is people, white people especially, who shield themselves from confronting racism because they're scared of being called racists in the process.
Caroline: Well, yeah, and I think I think this is a BFA, a bad-faith asshole. He knows better. He's an adult, he knows better. He is choosing to be a dick about it, he is he is choosing to defend the indefensible and to side with a guy he doesn't even know over empathizing with a woman who has felt uncomfortable enough that she had to leave her fucking job.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: And what that further indicates to me, is a complete lack of curiosity and empathy.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: I mean, like, OK, I understand that there's a difference between, like, a troll who whether he knows better or not, is just out to piss people off and people who genuinely are like ignorant and maybe not aware, whatever, blah, blah, blah. All of that aside. Your friend is not being curious, he's not being empathetic, it it does not seem at all like he is trying to put himself in your female friend's shoes in this situation or really any woman's shoes. He is clearly only able to imagine how another dude might feel getting rejected. Not how it feels to have a superior come on to you. And the thing is like, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Like you can encourage this douchebag to be curious and empathetic, but you cannot make him change. And empathy is such a key thing. I read an interview with Emily May, who is the executive director of Hollaback.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: They fight street harassment and they do a lot of bystander training and important stuff like that. And she's talking about sexual harassment bystanders. And she says “90 percent of the work that you have to do is convincing them that it matters enough to intervene.” And that interview, the article goes on to say, “other research suggests that when men learn about suffering from a victim's viewpoint, there's a lower likelihood that they will sexually harass themselves. That underscores the idea that to awaken men to harassment's true impact, it's critical for them to take the perspective of those being harmed, especially since prevailing masculine norms can blunt their empathy and awareness of that perspective.” Now. That is all well and good. And if you can awaken empathy in your friend, you deserve a Publisher's Clearinghouse check.
Cristen: Or just like a publishing deal, because write that book, I'll read it.
Caroline: Write the book. Write the book. But, Lindsay, I I don't know that you can awaken any empathy in your friend because it sounds like he is being willfully ignorant.
Cristen: Yeah, I mean, one one last resort empathy string that you could maybe pull on if it applies is. If he has a daughter, if he has a wife, a significant other like. If you can ask him, how would you feel if her boss, who is married, 30 years older than her, came on to her? Like, how sensitive would he be about that? I think that if you can if you can potentially shift his perspective in that kind of way, even though I am, I am loathe to lean too heavily on the “But think of your daughter. Think of your wife,” because it's often used as a scapegoat, I think, particularly for for men remaining willfully ignorant to these kinds of things. But that could be something to throw out. But ultimately, Lindsay, I think save yourself the time and the emotional energy and maybe just when he gets himself wound up about how sensitive everyone is, maybe you just let him stew in that let him stew in his own crock pot of Tucker Carlson bow ties. Yeah, I know he doesn't do the bow tie thing anymore, but he will always be the bow tie thing in my mind, OK?
Caroline: He is just a bow tie.
Cristen: Oh, we shouldn't say that about bowties, though.
Caroline: I think that we've we've nailed our advice to to sweet, wonderful Lindsay, and that is, you cannot make someone else care about people.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: And you it sounds like you I mean, you brought up power differentials, girl, like good for you. You did way more emotional labor and work than I would have done. But ultimately, I'm not sure that this is a person who is worth being close friends with. Not because he's hashtag canceled, but because I don't think I would want to be friends with someone A who has so little empathy and B is willfully ignorant and mean and C, thinks that harassment is OK.
Cristen: Oooh!
Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break.
Caroline: When we get back, Dr. Alissa Ackerman joins us to tackle what to do when your friend is dating someone accused of sexual assault.
Cristen: Stick around.
[stinger]
Cristen: We’re back, with Dr. Alissa Ackerman. Alissa is a professor of criminal justice and author of the book Healing from Sexual Violence: The Case for Vicarious Restorative Justice.
Caroline: Well, hello, Alissa. Welcome back to Unladylike.
Alissa: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me again.
Caroline: Well, thank you for being here. We are so excited to have you back. And we have a couple of listener advice questions for you to weigh in on today.
Alissa: I'm looking forward to it.
Caroline: OK, our first letter that we have here is from a listener named Carolina. She writes, “My childhood best friend is in a relationship with a man 10 years her senior and accused of sexual assault from his most recent ex-girlfriend. I cannot ignore survivors. The best friend told me she is lying because of things her boyfriend told her. I am a very logical, fact-based thinker and I remember reading a statistic in university where in Canada, out of the very few women that actually report their assaults and go to court, approximately one percent have proven to lie. Trying to look at this situation as objectively as possible, I cannot ignore that fact. Combined with just the emotional side of me, I believe survivors. There are millions of other things going on in this relationship as well, but that is the most alarming of them all. I told her I'm uncomfortable with the setup, that this is a red flag for me, etc. and I did this in the most calm way possible. But she isn't listening to anyone. I'm having strangers come up to me that know her begging me to talk her out of this relationship. I'm not sure what to do next, but I'm feeling that if this continues, I don't have the fight in me anymore and I'm going to lose my best friend of almost 15 years. I'm feeling torn between fighting for my friend and fighting for a cause so near to me. This is a weighty topic, but I look forward to your perspectives.”
Cristen: Weighty indeed.
Caroline: Seems like we have a couple of issues going on in in this letter all at the same time.
Cristen: Yeah, Alissa, I'm really curious what what jumped out to you in this letter?
Alissa: Yeah, there are so many things. The first thing that I would say is that I believe survivors, too. This statistic is correct. You know, very few people come forward and report their assaults to law enforcement and go through the criminal justice process. And, you know, one to two percent of those turn out to be false accusations. So the vast majority of people who come forward are telling the truth. And if they're not, then that's another separate issue that probably is related to some other form of trauma that they're experiencing. So I believe survivors, too. I also think that people are capable of change. So it is very possible that, you know, this childhood best friend is in a relationship with somebody who committed a sexual assault. That doesn't mean that that person isn't capable of reforming themselves and making sure that they don't do it again. I think it is perfectly OK to be concerned that somebody is in a relationship with, you know, a person who sexually harmed somebody else, but I don't think that people who have sexually harmed should not be able to be in relationship with others. So I certainly understand the concern. I'd be concerned for my friend as well. But I think it's also OK to give somebody a chance, even if you believe that they've caused harm in the past.
Cristen: Yeah, I think that what do you think about this? This line of thinking that I think comes up so much when we talk about sexual assault, where it feels almost mutually exclusive, that you either stand with survivors or you are complicit with perpetrators. And there's no it's very black and white and it's almost like we leave no room for the in between.
Alissa: Nothing is black and white. You know, I think that good people are capable of doing harmful things and people who maybe we wouldn't consider such good people are capable of doing good things. There's no such thing as black and white. And I think in this society, we really like to believe that it's either or and everything is great. Sexual assault is wrong. It is harmful. It is unacceptable. We should never stand for it. But if we want to ensure a world where sexual harm doesn't happen, that means that we have to call people in who have harmed and, you know, let them know that their actions were not OK. But calling them out and saying, you know, you can't be in a relationship, you know, you've done this thing and so you're canceled, that's just going to cause more harm overall. So I think we can hold multiple things. I think we could hold that this person may have sexually assaulted his ex-girlfriend, I believe the ex-girlfriend, and that he is capable of change and he is capable of being loved and loving. And that's not a comfortable place for people to sit.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: Is there anything else she can do, really, aside from just saying “I'm here for you, you know, if you ever want to talk about anything, if you ever notice him acting a certain way, like I'm I'm here for you” — because she certainly can't talk shit about the boyfriend because that's just going to make the situation worse.
Alissa: Right. Yeah, I think the best thing to do is to remain a support for your friend. There are lots of things that we see in the relationships that our friends have that maybe we're not very comfortable with. But if we. We want to be there as a friend, sometimes we have to put up with those things and that's really hard in a situation like this. I totally see where Carolina is coming from, saying I believe survivors, I have to stand with survivors. And yet, you know, my friend is dating somebody who may have caused this harm and I'm not sure what to do. We think of them as mutually exclusive things and I don't think they have to be. You can be upset that somebody has an accusation of sexual harm against them. You can also still be a support for your friend. You know, as they navigate a difficult relationship, but this is definitely a precarious place to be, and my heart is with Carolina in this. You know, I talk about this with my students all the time. You know, as somebody who works very closely with survivors, I have in my heart and in my mind what the right thing to do is. But it's not up to me, it's up to the individual, and I think the same thing about, you know, friends that are in relationships with other people. I may have in my heart and in my mind what I think is best for that friend, but it's not for me to decide. So it's for me to support my friend, even if I disagree with them. You know, I can tell them how I feel. These are the red flags that I see and I'm concerned for you. But at the end of the day, Carolina's friend is going to make the choices that she's going to make. And then it's up to Carolina. Whether she stands by that friend or whether she walks away. For me, I come from the perspective that it's never for me to judge.
Cristen: Yeah, one thing that comes to mind to me as well is I think bottom line, I would imagine that Carolina's primary concern is that her friend is safe.
Alissa: Right.
Cristen: And. Rather than necessarily telling her, itemizing all of her concerns, a place to start a conversation could simply be asking her friend are you safe, do you feel safe? And when we say believe survivors and trust women and things like that, I think it's also an opportunity to believe what your friend says about how she feels and in asking that you can Carolina, make yourself a safe place as well, like if things turn and harm occurs, she can know that, that you are there and can provide some safe harbor as well. But I think that, like. You're right that it also comes down at some point, to, to trusting your friend, but I do I do have a question about the point that she makes about strangers coming up to her, begging me to talk her out of this relationship, what the all of these kind of bystanders getting in the mix. I just wondered if you had any thoughts on the most productive response to those kinds of that kind of interference.
Alissa: So a couple of things come to mind as you're speaking. First, it is not Carolina's job. It is not her responsibility to beg her friend out of this relationship. If people are concerned, then they should go directly to the source, and and putting Carolina in this position is not helpful for Carolina. And the other thing that I would say as you were talking, you know, she's talking about her childhood best friend in a relationship with a man ten years her senior. And what I was just thinking was, I don't know how old her childhood best friend is. So if some of these red flags are the fact that this is, you know, somebody who is 16 dating a 26-year-old versus a 30-year-old dating a 40-year-old, like those are different responses that I would have.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Alissa: So if these are strangers coming up to somebody, coming up to Carolina and saying, we have concerns about this, and it's because, you know, this is somebody who is, you know, just at the age of consent dating somebody who is significantly older and an adult. I would have more red flags, and if this is somebody who's 25 or 30 dating somebody who's 10 years their senior. But I mean, the first part of the question was this really isn't Carolina's job to be put in the middle, having people come to her saying, you know, you need to to beg her out of this relationship. That's not her job and that could be harmful for her.
Caroline: Yeah. And I mean, I think that that's an excellent opportunity to say that Carolina, you know, you do sound like you're on the precipice of maybe being a little burned out by the situation. You say that I, I, you know, “if this continues, I don't have the fight in me anymore.” And I would just say that in addition to, you know, being concerned about your friend and wanting her to be safe and checking in with her, I would also check in with yourself and make sure that you have a support system around you. Ideally, that comes with a therapist, not just other friends to lean on. But I would just put that out there as well to to make sure that that you are taking care of yourself and setting your own boundaries for you.
Cristen: Alissa you said that it can be putting her, you know, these strangers coming up and saying, Carolina, you know, you need to go talk to her, that that could be harmful for Carolina. Could you just expand a little bit on what you mean by how it could be harmful for her?
Alissa: Sure. What I'm gathering from this is that it feels like for Carolina that she has the weight of the world on her shoulders, that it's her job to to fix this. And it's really not. And and if let's say her best friend does end up being harmed and doesn't listen to Carolina, I would hate for Carolina to feel like she was responsible in any way because she's not at all. This is a choice that her friend is making and a choice that this man is making to be in a relationship with one another. And as you've already pointed out, it sounds like she's already feeling that burn out. So to add, you know, feeling responsible on top of that burnout can be really, really harmful.
Cristen: We’re gonna take a quick break.
Caroline: When we get back, Alissa helps a listener who friends turned on her after she came forward about a sexual assault.
Cristen: Stick around.
[stinger]
Caroline: We’re back with professor and restorative justice expert Dr. Alissa Ackerman.
Cristen: So this next letter comes from a listener named Meg. She writes “For context, a couple of years ago, I was sexually assaulted by a friend I was dating at the time. It was relatively minor on the spectrum of assault. And I only say that because for a brief time I tried to brush it off, didn't say anything to him. He had been drunk, but no excuses, etc. I didn't even react much when it happened because we were at a party and I didn't want to embarrass him. Anyway, he dumped me via email a week or so later. And I still briefly thought we should stay friends, mostly for the sake of our tight knit group of friends. But the next time I saw him, while I behaved normally, I felt like I wanted to crawl out of my own skin. It took some real self-evaluation to admit to myself what had happened and that it wasn't my fault. When I finally told some other friends what had happened and that I wouldn't be around him ever again, I was victim-blamed. “But that's what you wanted.” “But he's such a nice guy.” “Poor so-and-so.” “That must have been really hard for him.” “We've already tried to accommodate you.” “You're overreacting.” All of these responses were from a group of women I thought were strong feminists. He suffered absolutely no consequences. I was the only friend he lost, whereas I lost an entire friend group. It was devastating. Thankfully, I had many other friends who were very supportive, so I was not at a total loss. And I've been to counseling, which was incredibly helpful and validating. And I recently got married to a wonderful man who has been nothing but amazing about all of this. To the point of my question: What is the right thing to do when a friend, family member, colleague is accused of sexual assault or harassment? I'm really struggling about what I would do if one of my male friends was accused of assault. What if the situation had been reversed and one of my friends had been assaulted by this guy? I know I would believe and support the victim, but what else can someone do if they aren't willing to end a friendship over something like this or still has to work with someone? How can they be a friend and supportive of the accused while still holding them accountable? I know I'm not the only one thinking about this.
Caroline: Yeah, I would say Meg is not the only one thinking about this. Alissa, what what jumped out to you in this letter?
Alissa: Well, first, I would say congratulations on getting married to a wonderful, amazing man. Second, I would say there is no comparison on the spectrum of assault, Meg. Harm is harm and, you know, whether it was, in your words, relatively minor or not, you were harmed. And so I hope that you will be able to hear me when I say you don't have to make comparisons and say that this is less than any other kind of assault. Another thing that jumped out to me was her saying she wanted to crawl out of her skin when she saw him, even though she acted normal. And I want Meg to know and all of your other listeners to know that that's a perfectly normal, valid response after assault to feel that way. That is a trauma response. As to the question at hand, what is the right thing to do when a friend or family member or colleague is accused of sexual assault or harassment? I would say there is no right thing. It really has to do with how you feel about the situation. For me, the way that I think about this is that number one, I stand with survivors, right? So if a friend of mine or a colleague was accused of sexual assault, that's where I would start the conversation. I stand with people who have been harmed and I will be an ally for anybody who has experienced harm. But what that means is, is that I want to be a part of the solution to ending sexual assault and harassment. So for me, that means calling people in. Instead of calling people out, so if somebody has been accused of assault, of harassment, I would have a conversation with them. I value you as my friend. I value you as my colleague. And I do not condone and cannot stand by the harm that you've caused. So for us to continue our friendship, for us to be in a place where I can support you, you have to do the accountability work. You have to do the work to repair the harm that you've caused. You have to make amends, which means listening to the person who you harmed. If they're willing to even have a conversation with you and listening to other survivors who you can learn about the depths of the harm that you've caused. And that's really, really hard work. So in the work that I do, I stand with and support people who are repentant, who are doing the work to rehabilitate themselves, who are doing the work to repair the harm that they've caused. But I'm not going to stand by unrepentant people, people who can't take responsibility or accountability. So how can you be a friend of the accused while still holding them accountable is saying, look, I'm going to be with you as you do the accountability work and I'm going to stand with the person who was harmed because. Right. That's where my support really needs to be. But as long as you're willing to do the work I stand with you, too.
Caroline: In your experience, is there is there a point at which people usually cut their friends out or say, I will not stand for this? I mean, I suppose that just depends on situation to situation.
Alissa: I think it really depends on the individual. You know, for me, because this is the field that I am in. I say this to people all the time. I will not stand for the harm that you caused, but as long as you're willing to do the work, I'm right here.
Caroline: Mm hmm.
Alissa: We think in this culture that deterrence works, punishment works, that, you know, canceling people teaches them. It actually really doesn't teach them anything, it is these really intimate, deep conversations that help people change their ways. Now, that's not for everybody. And I'm not saying that Meg should engage these conversations. I think that my best advice is that this is how we hold people accountable is remaining here, remaining with a place of love and respect as long as they are willing to do the work. So for me, the place where I draw the line is, you know, after trying to walk alongside somebody as they are doing the accountability work, when they show me they're not willing to do it, well then I can't that I can't be here. I can't stay a part of this anymore. You have to do the work.
Caroline: I appreciate Meg's instinct to to want to ask, like, well, if this ever if I'm on the other side of this and a friend is assaulted, how how can I be supportive of them? And also, like, how can I how do I deal with a friend, then, who has been accused of assault? Like, I appreciate that. I also, you know, still feel for her that she went through this and she lost her support, a lot of her support network. And I'm curious, in your in your work, do you see this as common? Do survivors or people who have experienced harm frequently get basically abandoned by their network?
Alissa: Unfortunately, I see this all the time. It's you know, it's awful, Meg, to experience this. The trauma of losing friends sometimes feels worse than the trauma of the assault itself. And I think the reason that this happens is because it's easier to believe that someone is lying, that somebody is dramatizing what happened, that somebody is not telling the truth, then to believe that somebody that you love and care for is capable of causing harm like this. And this is why even strong feminists, as you say, sometimes behave this way. I can tell you there is no overreacting and I can tell you nice guys behave like this all the time. So you are not at fault for any of this. And it's really unfortunate that your friend spoke to you this way. I see this all the time.
Cristen: How do you even begin that conversation with a friend who’s caused harm? Like how do you initiate that process of calling someone in?
Alissa: For most people who have harmed, it is rooted in harm caused to them. It doesn't excuse or justify the behavior by any means, but it helps us to understand why it happened. It's sort of like when you lose a loved one and people don't talk about it at all, like they just kind of ignore it. They don't bring the person up as if somehow that makes it better.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Alissa: And really, all that person wants is to talk about it. And so I think, you know, a really good way to broach a conversation about this is to just name it and to say, I see that and I see you and I love you and I am here if you want to talk about any of it. Right, I know that you have experienced unthinkable harms. I also know that you've caused harm. I love you regardless. And I think this goes back to what we were talking about a little bit ago, about there is no black and white. There is no perfect victim. Perfect offender. It is so layered. Harm causes more harm, and if we approach these topics by causing more harm, instead of approaching them with love and support, then the harm cycle continues. When we approach it with love and we say, look, I see you and I can't even imagine the layers of harm you experience, both because of your trauma and because of this label. That that will be really meaningful to just be seen for all of these things.
Caroline: Alissa, is there anything else that comes to mind for for any part of this conversation that you feel like we didn't touch on?
Alissa: I think we've pretty much hit it all. You know, my message always is, we have to hold both sides. Right? We can hold a friendship with somebody who has been harmed and we can still support somebody who caused that harm by holding them accountable. Right. It is when we don't acknowledge the harm that they've caused and we don't demand their accountability, that we cause harm to the person who has survived. And we can hold that somebody has experienced egregious harms and that they caused them. And we can still love them. It is when we live in this black and white thinking, I think about all of the therapists that I've seen like the first day of therapy. They talk about, well, you know, here are different things that we can look at all or nothing thinking is one of them. It is harmful to us. And so if we can get beyond that, if we can get beyond our binary thinking, we will be able to heal, it is when we live in this binary that more harm is caused. So I so appreciate these questions and being able to take the time to answer them. And I think the answer is always lean into the discomfort, have the conversation even when it's uncomfortable. Everybody will be better for it.
Caroline: Well, we so appreciate you coming back to Unladylike to answer these questions.
Cristen: Yes and for your work that you're doing.
Caroline: Thank you so much.
Alissa: Thank you.
CREDITS
Cristen: To learn more about Dr. Alissa Ackerman and her restorative justice work, head over to Twitter @alissaackerman or her website ampersandsrj.org. You can also listen to her first appearance on Unladylike in Episode #95 How to Do #MeToo Without Prisons. That episode is linked in our show notes.
Caroline: Y’all can find us at instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co. And you can support Cristen & me directly by joining our Patreon; over there, you’ll get instant access to nearly 100 existing bonus episodes, and a new bonus every week, including last week’s convo about when the FBI spied on the Women’s Liberation movement! You can find it all over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.
Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Jared O’Connell. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media. This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.
Cristen: Next week…
Demetria: I think the fun thing about being someone who uses a strap on dildo is like, it just really opens you up to so many different possibilities where it's just not like every day, I have to do the same thing with this, this five inch, oh no, I can have a sixth inch with a spinner attached to it. There's a buffet of things.
Caroline: The buffet. I just, you know, you can pick one that fits the mood. That fits the weather.
Demetria: Right. Like match the outfit colors. The nails, there is so much fun that you can do.
Cristen: We’re diving into the very unladylike world of strapons. To fully understand the practicalities and gender politics of doin it with dildos and penis prosthetics can lead to empowerment AND pleasure, we chatted with a professional dominatrix, a queer sex educator, and the author of an Autostraddle piece called “Strapping as a Fat Femme Was My Black Queer Sexual Liberation”. You don’t want to miss this episode! So make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen.
Caroline: And remember, got a problem?
Cristen: Get Unladylike.
BLOOPER
Cristen: I have one final question to leave with listeners, because, unladies, I'm so curious to know whether whether you have any answers for me, but. Lindsay direct quotes this friend who knows if this is actually verbatim, but according to Lindsay's email, he said, “I'm scared I'm going to be told I'm harassing someone after just talking to a female.”
Caroline: Oh lord
Cristen: And what I want to know is why, why, why why is calling a woman, a female such a red flag?
Caroline: Ah, it is!
Cristen: Because as soon as I saw that “female,” I knew that guy.
Caroline: Yep.
Cristen: I've met that guy. And I have quickly exited conversations with that guy because there is that the type of guy, cis guy who refers to women as “females” usually complains about snowflakes and sensitivity. And I know that that's just correlation. I don't know about the causation. So, unladies, if you know, this is me asking you for advice. Give me your thoughts.
Caroline: What’s the deal with female?
