Transcript | Ep. 153: How to Be ‘Well-Read’

Glory: I think at the heart of it is really like being generous with one another and thinking about reading as an act of service, like how do we read to learn and to help another person and not simply as entertainment? How can we learn about each other as well?

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Cristen: Caroline, have you ever heard the story about Toni Morrison and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain?

Caroline: I have not!

Cristen: I had not either until recently! So, Huck Finn is historically one of the most commonly banned books in American schools and libraries because of racist stereotyping and flagrant use of the n-word. And the first time Toni Morrison read as a child, she HATED it. Like, she said she found it disturbing.

Caroline: Understandable.

Cristen: But here’s the thing, Caroline: as an adult, Morrion’s perspective on it evolved. So she decided to re-read it, and she walked away really appreciating the richness of Twain’s writing, the complexities of Huck’s relationship with Jim — and she concluded that banning Huck Finn out of concerns specifically that it might damage Black students was nonsense. She described it as “a purist yet elementary kind of censorship designed to appease adults rather than educate children.” Is that sounding familiar to these times we’re living in?

Caroline: Oh yeah, I mean especially in the context of all the book banning and attempted book banning that’s going on right now.

Cristen: Like, what we’re witnessing is sort of the inverse of the Huckleberry Finn bans. Books by Black authors, including Toni Morrison, are being targeted across the country for allegedly radicalizing students with critical race theory and — heavy air quotes here — “racism” toward white people.

Caroline: Yes, we must protect the white children.

Cristen: But as a result, Black students around the country have been forming book clubs to resist the bans and read Black literature anyway. All of which is why today’s conversation with our guest Glory Edim — aka Well-Read Black Girl — could not come at a more perfect time.

Glory: In community, we can talk about these things and we can have discourse and we can be uncomfortable. It's OK. Like, that's part of the the well-read process. It's like you're learning through things and you're asking questions.

Caroline: Well-Read Black Girl’s whole mission is to celebrate books by Black women and nonbinary authors. Glory started it as an IRL book club, and it has since blossomed into a massive online community, TWO anthologies and a new Well-Read Black Girl podcast.

Cristen: So today, we’re talking with Glory about the story of Well-Read Black Girl and the power of reading.

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Caroline: Growing up, Glory could be found exactly where you’d expect a future Well-Read Black Girl to be.

Glory: Oh, God, I mean, I lived in the public library, I went to the public library every day. I remember having like this huge backpack and I would go into the stacks and I would like throw everything in there. So I had like Little Women. I had like Judy Blume, I did like Nancy Drew. I was obsessed with The Babysitter's Club. The library was such a part of my upbringing…and even thinking about civic participation. Like, I just was so careful with my books like I really just thought like, this is such a big responsibility, like taking something from this massive, beautiful building that had all these like library shelves and bringing it back to my home. Like, I wouldn't let my brothers touch it to get it sticky. Like I didn't bend the pages. I was just so meticulous because it felt like a really big responsibility. And I think that kind of feeling and idea of, you know, like how I take care of books and how I take care of other people's. Like I do see that as a very precious act, and that is something that started off very young.

Cristen: Glory was also very young when, one day at the library, she stumbled across Maya Angelou's autobiography, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings

Glory: I probably was like 11 or 12, and I was I was definitely judging a book by its cover. Like, I didn't really understand what her story was going to be about, but I remember seeing the cover, and she had like a head wrap on. Like she just looked like my mom or like an auntie or like me, like she felt like family. And I was like, Oh, if I read the story, I’m gonna like hear about this like Black woman's life. And so like, like just like reading it and seeing her just like her beauty and even her name occurred me was just, it sounds like so magical like the way it comes out of your mouth, like Maya Angelou…And then I read that book at least I don't know. My god like a dozen times now, and each reading is so different. But my first reading, I did not really fully understand the magnitude of her life and the things that she had encountered. And then as I got older, I really saw how she developed her voice and was so, so just like, so resilient, but also just like fearless. Like, she just has such a profound audacity and like feeling of self-assuredness that I was hoping to emulate in adulthood. I was like, I want to try all these things and take all these, like, really great risks. Whatever that might look like. I wasn't sure how it would manifest, but she set that example for me, for sure.

Cristen: This is also reminding of - I believe that you wrote an AP English paper on Maya Angelou and handed it in to your teacher who then told you, like, “Oh, she's not a good writer” and kind of, like, brushed it off.

Glory: Oh my god, yes. Yeah, this is notorious. But also, I have to shout out. So this English teacher was actually amazing, too. That's why I was so hurt by it. So when he was critical of Maya Angelou, what he was critical of was her just her grammar, her use of grammar, you know, and like dialect. So like but but then I'm like, We just read Zora Neale Hurston and clearly the dialect and how, like she writes, is, you know, intentionally different and like imitating a southern culture and a different voice, you know, so what's the difference with Maya Angelou? Like, why are we being so critical of how she’s, like phrasing things or if she puts a comma here or there, you know? So it was like one of these like moments of, What is right? Like, what makes this appropriate or not appropriate? And I like had to take a stand to say like, no. And I felt like in that moment, he was dismissing her intellect and her way of sharing the black experience. And I took offense. But it was also this moment of me, like standing up and like really being like, OK, I have an opinion on this and I feel strongly and I'm going to voice it. I was that motivated and moved by it because I was like, who gets to say this is like the way she writes is bad or good?

Cristen: Well, connect the dots for us, then, between kind of those early formative experiences and when you get to college and you really start diving more into like black feminist literature in particular.

Glory: Yeah, I mean, to attend Howard University or quite honestly, any historically black college is such a life-changing and very affirming experience. And I also understood there was like sitting in this space of just reverence, like, you know, knowing that, like Zora Neale Hurston attended Howard and you know Toni Morrison and all these greats, you know, so automatically. I was like, I want to be part of this lineage. And I started reading the works of like bell hooks and Toni Cade Bambara, and Audre Lorde and reading it in a way that I was looking at the methodology of Black radical feminism and how it is like centered on liberation and just like collective empowerment and being very aware of where I sat at, at my university and how I was like really looking to make change. And again, those the books that I read during that time really served as just a blueprint, a guide, a way of like being, you know, I don't I don't think prior to that, I had really decided what my ideology would be, like, I wasn't calling myself a feminist, I don't think I was like I had fully embodied it. But once I arrived at Howard's campus, that changed and I knew that my identity as a Black woman is so vital to just like my, my whole being and embracing my multiple identities. I could be, you know, voice my opinions and just like, feel stronger about ideas that could seem like unconventional or even, dare I say, radical right like it's like that idea of being surrounded by work that inspires you to to be greater and to dream bigger was it just moved me and made me see the power of words.

Caroline: OK, could you define “well-read”?

Glory: Oh, I love that question. So I define being well-read as a person who is curious and looks at words and books as a method of investigation. So whatever you're reading, you're like really taking it in, you're looking for a substance. You're looking for moments of pause and reflection, and it gives you an opportunity to ask questions. So I really think that curiosity is like key to being well read. It's not simply just like reading words and repeating them verbatim and, you know, knowing all these scholarly texts like, that's great. But the the beauty of it is really having conversations and like building connections with people.

Cristen: Yeah, we were going to ask kind of how that definition compares to maybe the like the the more traditional or literary idea of being well-read, which I feel like is very much focused on like quantity and like, “Have you read the canon?”

Glory: Right, right? And what is the canon so.

Cristen: Right?

Glory: Growing up, you know, that would have been Walt Whitman and a lot of like old dead white men. And now, it's like there's so much more there's just so much more beauty and richness in literature. And I think of the canon, I'm thinking of Pachinko, you know, I'm thinking of Toni Morrison, I'm thinking of women and people that have been largely underrepresented in literature. And now we have this beautiful just like reshaping of it. And that's exciting for me.

Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break.

Caroline: When we come back, Glory tells us how Well-Read Black Girl started with a t-shirt.

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere.

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Glory: So I was given like a T-shirt by my partner and it was for my birthday… And it said like, Well Read Black Girl on it. And this like T-shirt was my favorite thing and I wore it everywhere and people would see me out in Brooklyn. And you know how Brooklyn is New York is just like this small, big world where people will come up to you and talk to you. And I'm a chatty Catty, so I welcome that kind of energy.

Cristen: We’re back with Well-Read Black Girl, Glory Edim, and we gotta describe this t-shirt. Because it was designed like a university logo. So you had “Well Read Black Girl” in big letters at the top and a crest with the names of Glory’s favorite authors, like Octavia Butler and Maya Angelou in it.

Glory: So people would simply ask me where I got this T-shirt from when I'd be like, Oh, actually, yeah, you know, like, my boyfriend made it for me. And it went from that to, OK, so like, what book are you reading? And I would always have something in my bag, and so I would like pull out J. California Cooper or, you know, Gloria Naylor, because I tend to read like reread a lot of like vintage classics by black women. And so, you know, we would just start having conversations and talking about whatever we are reading at the time. And that happened more than enough times where I was like, There's something here, there's something special happening that I want to explore.

Cristen: This was back in 2015. Glory decided to start a book club with some friends and made an Instagram for it. And that’s how @wellreadblackgirl was born.

Glory: For the longest time, that Instagram handle was like my mom and like three girlfriends from college, you know? Like, It was sincerely a book club. But the the thing that changed was when I met Naomi Jackson. So Naomi Jackson had a new book coming out. It was called the Star Side of Bird Hell. I had read it and then went to a book signing with her at Greenlight Bookstore in Brooklyn. And I just was so moved by the book .. it's a really beautiful coming of age story with like.. different moods and textures. It's just so delightful, and it was her first book, so, in that moment, I felt like this connection with her. I just asked her to, you know, I'm going to host this small book club. Would you be open to coming to the book club and, you know, talking to us about your work and about the book? And she accepted my invitation. And that, yes, really changed the trajectory of the organization and how I even thought about approaching people and asking them to participate.

Caroline: Glory was emboldened to invite more Black women writers to speak at the book club. That first year they had a slew of amazing debut authors including Margo Jefferson, Kaitlyn Greenidge, Nicole Dennis-Benn and more.

Glory: We were there from the beginning, like we were buying the books. We were tweeting about it. We were like, you know, at all the book signings, we were showing love. And I want to continue that energy of like supporting young emerging Black writers and women of color from the very beginning.

Caroline: Just two years after starting Well-Read Black Girl, Glory Kickstarted the first Well-Read Black Girl Festival, which is a full day of literary panels and workshops. The Kickstarter hit its fundraising goal in the first three days and swiftly sold out. The festival, by the way, is still going strong and this past year, Gabrielle Union was the headliner.

Cristen: Well, I read in an interview you gave, I think it was last year to Essence, that you avoid the language of giving voice to Black authors in terms of like describing what Well Read Black Girl is all about and instead describe it as giving space. Why is that distinction important to you?

Glory: Because we have a voice that everyone has a voice, you know, what we need is more opportunity. What we need is more things for people to feel connected to and and and more visibility in ways to amplify their work. There is this kind of misconception that there is like, Oh, there's not enough Black writers or, you know, there's like there's a lack of talent, which is not the case. There are so many incredible writers who are ready. They have books and proposals, and they just need an opportunity and they need someone to say, like, Hey, like this, this is important and it matters, and we want to help you succeed. Majority of the DMs and the questions I get are around that. They're like, How? How do I do this? Can you offer me direction? Can you introduce me to an agent? Can you give me like tips on my like book proposal? So those are the things that people looking for, just the right opportunity and space to to grow and to and also to make mistakes and ask questions like you don't have to come out of the gate perfect so you can have space to ask for help.

Cristen: Another way Glory has made space for Black writers is through anthologies. In 2018, Glory curated her first anthology, Well-Read Black Girl: Finding Our Stories, Discovering Ourselves. Her second, – On Girlhood: 15 Stories from the Well-Read Black Girl Library, was published late last year.

Caroline: We're curious about your process for putting together anthologies, like how do you think about who your audience would be, what excerpts to include, like how how did you start to go about that?

Glory: So the process of writing my first anthology was me, starting with my own bookshelf, pulling out anthologies and reading stories that inspired me and asking myself the question, You know, when did I first see myself in literature? With the second anthology, On Girlhood, I was really trying to explore the word “girl.” You know, I wanted to have like a love letter to my younger self, and I wanted to really look at coming of age stories because I don't think there's enough that really share the Black girl experience. And some of the stories are about sisterhood and they're about romantic love or what it's like to, you know, to be at a school dance or the relationship with your mother. And I was looking at the threads of who who we are as young people and how we come to develop our identities.

Caroline: Glory started to look back at stories she read as a young girl and she kept coming back to author and anthropologist Zora Neale Hurston. Particularly the obstacles Hurston faced as a young girl.

Glory:There weren't a lot of opportunities for women, let alone Black women to excel. And she did everything that she wanted to do, if not more. And she wrote this you know, this incredible book that we all still reference, and has become part of the literary canon, you know, Their Eyes Were Watching God. So I thought about Zora Neale Hurston and I thought about her girlhood. Like, Who was she as a small girl? What does she dream about? And so with those two anthologies, they really started off as like really big questions that I was trying to answer, and I thought they would have like a universal appeal to anyone who was reading them and they would also offer. And I've said this phrase a couple of times, but a restructuring of the of this canon that we always refer to. But new stories, new ideas, new authors that we can inject and just create a new precedent for what we say when we think of, like “high literature,” you know, like and I say that in a playful way, because what is that, right?

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, we’ve got a lightning round of reading questions for Glory.

Caroline: Stick around!

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Cristen: We’re back with Glory Edim.

Caroline: OK, so we have a couple rapid-fire reading questions for you.

Glory: OK.

Caroline: Here we go. OK. So IRL book versus digital copy.

Glory: Oh, in real life, I need a physical, I need to hold it.

Caroline: Best time of day to read.

Glory: Oh, I'm a nighttime reader, I read before bed and when I was living in Brooklyn, I read on the train all the time. That was like my favorite. That's what I miss.I'm now in D.C., so I have to. I think I'm going to find a new way. Maybe I'll just get on DC Metro and like, hop around just to read,

Caroline: OK, best place to read.

Glory: Ooh, OK. I have a very cozy chair, like I always dedicate like a chair, like you got to make your spot, you got to have like your little easy boy, a spot in the sofa that's a nice dented in, you need your own chair, a special chair that you make your own.

Cristen: I got maybe a curveball for you.

Glory: Go.

Cristen: Reading a brand new book or rereading an old fave?

Glory: Oh, I'm a re-reader. I love like reading something again and again and again.

Cristen: Number one tip for cultivating a reading habit.

Glory: Scheduling time. You can schedule time to read. You can put a little note memo on your phone or put it in your calendar and say, you know, I'm going to read 20 minutes a day. It's going to be part of my morning pages or my journal or right before bed. I personally read before bed and it relaxes me kind of winds me down. And sometimes I even put like a page number. Like, OK, I want to read 10 pages and I want to get to like this part. But I'm also a little like compulsive. But it helps me track my reading, and because I also take a lot of notes when I'm reading, so it helps me like, OK, I want to get to this page.

Cristen: Joining a book club or starting your own?

Glory: Oh my gosh. Well, you know I love a good book club. If you are going to start a book club, you have to be organized and you have to be consistent because people will like not finish or they'll, you know, they'll come for the wine. You have to be organized for starting. But joining, I feel it's a little bit more like relaxing. You don't have to do the facilitation or organizing or like, you know, set out the Eventbrite or send out the email. I feel joining is a lot more fun. Be a joiner. I mean, that's a philosophy for life. Join all the things, especially book clubs.

Cristen: And finally, what's what's a book that we should read next?

Glory: There's so many books…Oh, OK, you know what? I just started this, but that's really fun. It's called Yinka, where is your husband? And it's all about this woman who's basically it's like a romantic comedy dramedy, and she's British Nigerian, which is also fun because I love a good like UK-ish like Bridget Jones kind of vibe. And her aunts are always just like talking about how she's single, and she goes into all these antics about how she can, like, find her husband, but also maintain her own kind of agency. But it's funny. It's like really funny. And I love this idea of like this Nigerian girl just going out in the world and subverting tradition and being her own self.

Cristen: Well, Glory that concludes our rapid fire round! Thanks for playing.

Caroline: Ok, Glory we’re done with the rapid-fire, but we’re not done with the advice yet. What do you think about grappling with that idea of I should be reading this, I should pick this up. What advice do you have for people who are grappling with the pressure of the shoulds on their to read list?

Glory: I think that that kind of should-be-reading mentality is welcomed in spaces where you have the space and time to read. So if you are a college student, if you're a grad student and you can sit with a text and kind of meditate and be in conversation with other students, or if you're like, in a very engaged book club, I think that should is like it can be a joyful experience if you like, you know, bring that perspective of, I'm like learning through this and I'm not sure what it is, but I'm going to try. But that trying requires space. So if you don't don't have a lot of space and time to do that and your schedule is already like packed to the brim. I do not recommend doing the should I think you should read what brings you joy and like fills your life and will be a pleasant, affirming experience. But if you have space to kind of explore texts and be in community with others, then take that step. Like reading Caste is an incredible experience, but I found it much more joyful when I was reading it with a friend and talking with her continuously on a group text and asking her questions and then referring to our JSTOR accounts to get, you know, more more just like detail. You know, like, I think more of the should should be done in community.

Cristen: Kind of on the flip side of the idea of giving some space and time to maybe some of the should reading some of the deeper reading. I'm very curious to get your thoughts on what I'm calling “performative reading” on social media. And by that, I'm I'm really thinking about like the scourge of white ladies posting like pics of like a How to Be an Anti-Racist with a caption like “doing the work,” which, maybe they are doing the work. Maybe I'm just terribly cynical, but I'm curious what you think about that element of our current kind of reading culture.

Glory: that's so funny. My like pet peeve is like when people post their to-be-read lists or their like book stack for the month and they have like eight books and I'm just like, Wait, there is no way. Like on average I can read like two books a month and I'm like really reading consistently, you know, maybe three, if I'm if the book is like under 100 pages or something. But it's just wild to me. I'm like, Do you have no other jobs, you know, like, like you can? There's no way you're reading like eight books of like intense, plot driven, like, no. So I think there's a lot of just like the books look pretty and it's aesthetically pleasing to post online like, we get it. But please, stop saying you actually read those books. In terms of just like this performative reading and people. I think I don't know. I think a majority of people are really trying their best, and I think a lot of people need just like extra validation, like we're lonely. We want to feel like we're making a difference. And instead of like going out to volunteer at a shelter or doing something that might be more meaningful or have a greater impact, people find that sharing something on social media equates like activism lite, you know? And I would prefer if people actually did the work of like finding ways to change policies and, you know, like volunteer at their local library and do things that make a greater impact on their communities versus just trying to post things on social. I always say that reading is just the beginning."

Caroline: Now, after years of championing other people’s books, Glory is adding herself to the canon. Her memoir – Gather Me: A Memoir in Praise of the Books That Saved Me – is coming out in November.

Glory: it's been a life changing experience. it is hard as fuck to write a memoir if anybody thinking about it out there. Considering it, it is hard, you should have a good therapist on like speed dial. And I just learned that like I can write this memoir, I'm going to set it down, I'm going to publish it, and it will no longer be a part of me. And I also think as Well Read Black Girl, the festival, the podcast, the books like they're all works of art, they're all works of service, and I need to create that separation so I can see them clearly and allow them to grow,

Cristen: And they’ve definitely grown, y’all! That WRBG Instagram - y’know the one that only her Mom and a few friends followed for so long- now has more than 400K followers

Glory: You can be by yourself reading and like you can get lost in a story and you can feel like part of something larger than yourself, you know. Glory [00:03:05] So anyone who participates in the well read Black Girl Book Club, the the beauty of it is really having conversations and building connections with people

CREDITS

Caroline: To learn more about Glory, head over to @wellreadblackgirl on Instagram or listen to her brand new podcast Well-Read Black Girl with Glory Edim wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: Y’all can find us at Instagram, Facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co. And you can support Caroline & me directly by joining our Patreon; over there, you’ll get instant access to nearly 100 existing bonus episodes, and a new bonus every week, including last week’s convo on polyamory, THROUPLES, and one throuple in particular. Tres unladylike!. You can find it all over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Jared O’Connell. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week…

Alissa: If we want to end sexual harm, we have to be willing to call people in we have to be willing to, you know, talk about the harmful impacts of their behavior. But if we cancel people, if we just say, I want nothing to do with you, I don't stand for this, they actually don't ever learn.

Caroline: It’s another edition of Ask Unladylike, where we open up our mailbag to bring you our unladylike advice. For this episode, we’ve invited back criminal justice professor Alissa Ackerman. She’s joining us to give her perspective on what to do if a person you love is accused of sexual assault – and what to do if your friend is dating an alleged abuser.

Cristen: Y’all do not want to miss this episode! So make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

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