Transcript | Ep. 119: Ask Unladylike: Why Can’t I Make Friends?
Negin Farsad: I used to be like walking into any situation being like, well, everyone would rather be friends with anyone else in this room but me. You know what I mean? I just had that kind of ridiculous high school girl like insecurity for so many years until I realized like, oh, like it's not that I'm the most garbage person in a room. It's that we're all garbage people in the room.
[Theme music]
Caroline: Hey y'all and welcome to Unladylike. I'm Caroline
Cristen: I'm Cristen
Caroline: Today on the podcast, it is our third installment of Ask Unladylike, where we tackle y'alls' burning questions that Google can't answer.
Cristen: Caroline, we've quite the sampler platter of advice to dish out this episode. We are helping out one listener who is sick of getting asked the ol' question 'when are you going to have kids?’
Caroline: We've also got a doozy about calling out racism …
Cristen: Yeah, and that one has a twist
Caroline: But first up, we’ve got a question about making new friends as an adult. Which can be super hard!
Cristen: So hard! So hard. Caroline, I feel like the older I get kinda the harder it is to make new friends. Because you know grownups ar ebusy.
Caroline: I’m currently accepting applications! That difficulty is why we are calling up comedian and friend of the show, Negin Farsad. Negin hosts the podcast Fake the Nation and currently stars in Birdgirl on Adult Swim. She’s also one of the friendliest people we know.
Cristen: Caroline, let’s get to friendly Negin, shall we?
Caroline: Let’s!
[Stinger]
Caroline: Well, hello Negin, thank you for joining us.
Negin: Oh, my God, thanks for having me.
Caroline: So we have a letter today about friendship, and we just thought you were the perfect person to come on and give some advice about making friends, even, you know, even in a pandemic.
Negin: Um no, I'm so flattered that you thought of me.
Caroline: Oh well of course! All right. So the letter we have is from a listener named Jesenia. Cristen, would you do me the honor of reading this letter?
Cristen: Oh, I'd be thrilled. OK, Jesenia writes, “I am a failure at making friends. I move around often about every two to five years. But in that time I rarely make any meaningful connections. Coworkers hate me — all female office currently — and after many meetups and bumble friend requests, I haven't been successful at finding a group of rad ladies to feel connected to. I'm a 34-year-old Latina living in Pennsylvania with my husband of seven years. My failure in this part of my life has left me questioning myself and has shaken my confidence. My husband assures me that I'm wonderful and kind, but just too smart and too picky for most people to get me. Where are my people? Is there any advice for women like me? I'm looking for people locally to do things irl. I can provide more info about my life, but honestly, I've tried everything, and I'm at my wit's end.”
Caroline: Oh, my God, Jesenia. So, Negin, what's your take on Jesenia’s letter?
Negin: Well, I mean, OK, so first of all, I wonder so part of it the thing that I was confused about is does she also not like the people that she's meeting? Is it that she meets people, but they she doesn't like them?
Cristen: I inferred that from her husband's feedback because according to her, at least, he says she's too picky.
Negin: I think there's a couple of things going on. One is I would say one of the things that I found really fantastic about my husband is that I have a hard time like leaving the apartment. Like when it's like time to go. I always forget, like, three things that I have to reopen the door and then go back in like three separate times. Right. I'm that guy. And I know that it is annoying to be with someone who does that. And I and I have tried to improve this about myself. And like, I've tried to be more thoughtful and, you know, and reduce my going-back-ins or whatever. And to a certain extent, I have improved. But like in general, there's something in my DNA that's like, forget your umbrella. Oh, wait, you have to get your umbrella. Right. So I think what's remarkable about my husband is that so many previous boyfriends thought that was annoying or they would just like getting in a huff and pissed and annoyed about that. My husband decided to find that attribute cute and endearing. Right. And so I think that if you find yourself being critical of people, like maybe if you're just like, oh, you know, Sheryl, she's cool, but like, you know, I don't know, she really eats. She only order salads or whatever your criticism is. You can try and reframe your criticism into something like, you know, what's really funny about Cheryl is she's like so nosy and it's great because she gets a bunch of information out of people like, I don't know, I think you can reframe things and like just train yourself to have a part as positive, more open, more accepting spin on the people you're meeting, you know what I mean?
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, I wondered that too, about two things jumped out and like connected for me, a beautiful-mind style. And it was the “too picky” and the “coworkers hate me parentheses all female office currently,” and so I don't want to sound like I'm making this Yesenia's fault, although we don't know we don't know the full story. We don't know what's going on with these relationships. But I am curious if it's possible that she is coming off as too aggressive or judgmental, perhaps insensitive, like it's possible that her coworkers and / or the folks she's meeting are - they're incompatible or these people are assholes or whatever. But I am wondering if maybe Jesenia's is a little more closed off than she thinks she is.
Cristen: Caroline I thought you were going to raise the question of whether that was some internalized sexism.
Caroline: Yeah, that well, that was the other part of like, is there a little bit of internalized misogyny going on where, like, you want to make friends, but for whatever reason, you aren't a big fan of other women,
Negin: Oooh wait and no, because that's the other thing is that there was also an implication that she had an easier time making male friends, I guess.
Cristen: Well, she says, she starts out her email with I am a failure at making friends, full stop. You know, I have a hunch, though, that she's looking specifically for female friends. Because she's going on Bumble, I don't know, can you make can you set up male friend dates on on Bumble? I don't know. I don't know, but it's oh, because she's specific. She also specifically says “I haven't been successful at finding a group of rad ladies to feel connected to.” So I wonder if this is kind of a bigger symptom of her feeling, sort of, I don't know, thrown to the wind. She moves a lot. She hasn't been able to maybe kind of place down roots and feel feel like she has has her space, her people.
Negin: I also wonder if it's that thing that, like I feel like I did and maybe still do a little bit, which is, oh, my God, everybody hates me. And it's not true at all. You know what I mean? Like, I am no better or worse a friend possibility than anyone else, and then I think, like, if that's the case or like it, maybe you're sending off vibes of like I judge you. You're not for me, like so maybe you need to - I hate to say this. It's possible that, like, you can up your warmth factor by just tossing in a “Hey, Cheryl, I like your earrings,” you know what I mean? Like a couple of those tossing in some nice compliments to start the day. I feel like warms people up and then also just like questions warm people up. I have to be honest with you guys. I managed in a pandemic to make new friends.
Caroline: What?
Cristen: OK, how?
Negin: I know it, I know it, like, truly makes no sense. There’s a multiple wonderful coffee shops where I live in Manhattan, in the East Village of Manhattan, New York City. And and I have been spreading around my coffee dollars as much as possible so that they all stay alive. And I there's this one coffee place that I've been going to for years. They've have really great coffee. They're called Abraço. And I always saw, like a group of people there, I would see the same people there every morning. And especially I remember this one seeing a lady and being like, man, she's so well dressed. And I just always thought I'd love to be her friend. She's so well dressed. And then it just like it it turned into a situation during the pandemic where people would be gathered outside, ordering coffees and just sort of standing around outside and having a conversation. And they'd be like, oh, like, did you see that — like early pandemic style — like, did you see that episode of Tiger King or whatever? And they'd be having a conversation. I'd be fully eavesdropping, and then I would just be like, I also watched that episode. You know, I would just jump into the conversation, uninvited folks, uninvited. I would jump into these conversations and just be like, oh, here's my take, you know, and hope that, like, the conversation didn't stop because of me. And then people would, you know, say a thing. And then I would just throw in questions, keep them talking. People love questions.
Caroline: Yeah yup.
Negin: You gotta ask a lot of questions. And then I would keep on talking. We what the thing for me is that I like sort of taught myself early on is to be interested in people, even if you may not ultimately like them. And I find that to be also a really good tool in making friends, you know what I mean, yeah, because I'm interested in everybody.
Caroline: I think people love to talk about themselves. And I think that is a perfect tactic. Also Negin, you summed up two points that I had jotted down. One was, don't be afraid to chat folks up in public when it is safe to do that.
Negin: Yes. Yes.
Caroline: That - the safety part is important. And also - and keep an open mind, because I think, too, I wonder if there is a degree, if - if there's been like a streak of bad luck, especially for our letter writer, like haven't been able to make friends. I wonder if maybe you get in your head about it of like, “I am horrible at this.” And I think it can be helpful to remember that, like, not everyone has to be like the Highlander friend. You know, “there can be only one!” Like you get to have multiple friends in life and everybody's imperfect. And it's OK, I think, to have friends who fill certain roles in your life, like maybe one is the coffee buddy or like one is the hiking buddy. It's you know, ideally you would have really close confidantes and people who really have your back. But I think it's OK, especially as you're getting into building new friendships to - to be like, you know, I have an open mind and I don't have to, like, be obsessively in love with every single part of you as I'm building a relationship.
Negin: Yeah, I think that, like that thing of you don't have to get everything from one person or you don't have to get everything from the same crew, like, you know, the funny thing about coffee crew and it just basically all I did was I showed up to the same place many times a week for several months. As like kind of like that's like what I did to have this coffee group. And they're multigenerational. Like, you know, there's a woman who's 65. There's a dude who's like 38, you what know I mean, there's like a woman who's like 25. So it's like it's a really multigenerational, diverse group. So they don't have that like they're not like all 30-something moms that like fall into my particular demographic, you know what I mean? Well, I think that's the other thing is sometimes you may be looking at, you know, an old man sitting on a stoop and being like, there's no way that dude could be my buddy. But like, that dude could probably be your buddy.
Cristen: Yeah
Caroline: Stoop guy. Yeah.
Negin: Yeah. So I feel like that has been - the pandemic has opened up a category of friendship for me, which is just random people that I like keep running into and seeing on the streets, you know what I mean? Again in a safe and socially distanced way.
Cristen: Negin, have you had an opportunity to compliment that member of the coffee crew whose - whose clothes like whose style you had admired so much?
Negin: Yeah, I mean, so Barbara.
Cristen: Barbara! of course.
Negin: I want to say this whole thing started because I complimented her clothes like probably five times before I invited myself in on a conversation that I overheard.
Cristen: You laid the groundwork.
Negin: Yes. Like I said. But also, I mean, it's all it then got weird because I wanted to compliment her clothes just because she always wears great things. But then I was like, it'll be weird if I just keep complimenting. But I actually now actively stop myself from complimenting her clothes because I don't want to be too much of a fan person. But yeah, it started with compliments. It then accelerated with me jumping into a convo. You know, I also I strike up a lot of conversations with people in front of me or behind me in a line. And so folks, not - lines are not for frustration. They're for opportunity.
Caroline: Perfect.
Cristen: I love that.
Caroline: Perfect. Negin, thank you so much for joining us. Um, honestly, your pandemic friendship story is an inspiration to me.
Cristen: I know. I need to find a line.
Caroline: Go wait for something somewhere
Negin : Go, get yourself into a long line. Go find a coffee shop that you can show up to every day around the same time so you can find a crew.
Cristen: Oh, my God. Perfect. I honestly need to do this. OK, I'm actually Jesenia, surprise
Caroline: Well thank you much Negin for your help.
Negin: Oh, my God, thanks for having me.
Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, it's time for the dreaded question: WHEN ARE YOU GONNA HAVE KIDS????
Caroline: Dun-dun-dunnn! Stick around, y’all
[Stinger]
Cristen: We’re back, and now it’s just me and you steering the advice ship, Caroline! Now, our next letter writer, is asking a question, it's. I'd give it I give it a four out of five, Doozeroos.
Caroline: Ok.
Cristen: Because it's just it's just a question that won't that won't fucking go away already. OK
Caroline: Yeah. yeah.
Cristen: So, this comes from an unlady named Lily. And Lily writes, “Ever since my husband and I got married, I've been on the receiving end of a lot of unwelcome advice and questions about when I want to have kids. What's a polite way to tell people to mind their own business?”
Caroline: Two words: “Fuck off.” Or is that not polite?
Cristen: That's not polite, Caroline, because of course, that's my go to answer as well.
Caroline: OK, well, so. Here we sit, two childfree unladies, you married, me unmarried, and I have a feeling that we've both had to field this question before and you, though, being the married party, I am curious how it ramped up for you when you went from being single? And and I really am curious about the evolution of this whole timeline from being single to engaged to married. How has that gone for you?
Cristen: Well, I think that by the time I was getting married, I had been a — for lack of a better term — professional feminist for a number of years. So I honestly have rarely gotten that question from adults in my life. I think because I maybe have just talked about abortion so much, they're like, “We don't even want to know the answer. God only knows what she wants to do with her womb.” And listen, I, I consider myself hashtag blessed for that because what astonishes me even more, Caroline, than the question to the recently marrieds of when are you having kids? Is what I've seen my friends who now are on their first kids, OK, them having to immediately field the “Well, don't you want another?”
Caroline: Oh my God.
Cristen: Are you thinking about number two? Like there is a window. I realize that if you have fewer than three children and more than four you will be under constant womb suspicion, either on the side of if you have between like zero and two, people want you to have more and are weirded out that you don't want more. But if you have more than four and I say this is the youngest of five, people are weirded out that you still want to keep having them. So, yeah, I mean, and and I gave this a four out of five to doozeroos, Caroline, because even though it's such a basic question and it is a question that is asked on so many Internet forums, and so many like essays and think pieces have been written begging people to stop asking this question because there is also highly insensitive, re: infertility, pregnancy loss, people who simply do not want to have children. And yet. And yet. It's it's just it's like baked in to the social script.
Caroline: And I I just don't understand I don't understand why. I understand social expectations, I understand pro natal ism, I understand trying to make conversation at the work happy hour, like I understand all of that. But I - but in my core, I do not understand why people still ask the question.
Cristen: I think that in a lot of ways and within a lot of families, when there's a new baby, all the focus goes on there. It gives you a purpose. There's a center, there's a distraction, there's an end, there's an out. There's like something to talk about.
Caroline: So. Wait, wait. So are you telling me that people are just empty inside and they need something else to focus on?
Cristen: No. I mean, some people also just like genuinely - sometimes they can come from a really good place. I do think that some people love couples so much that they just want to see those babies they're going to make, and they want to hold them and they want to squish them. So to circle back, though, to Lily's question of what's a polite way to tell people to mind their own business? If you really, really, really, Lily want the questions and unsolicited advice to stop, there might not be a quote unquote polite way because to some extent, politeness is in the eye of the beholder, you know.
Caroline: Right.
Cristen: But. If you want a kind way to say it, I think you acknowledge the well-meaning intentions. And then tell them you'd rather not talk about it and change the subject. And then if the other person gets in a twist about it, then that's - then that's on them. But. I think that you can - it might - it might provoke some discomfort, but I think that you are. I think that you can still be a kind person and say, I mean, “It's so it's really sweet of you to ask, but and I know that it's coming from a good place and I know I appreciate the love. But honestly, this is this is actually a really it's a pretty private thing. And, you know, if if you want to talk more about that, maybe we can in the future. But, you know, me and me and my partner just we're figuring it out right now.”
Caroline: Man. OK, so like that is a thousand times better than what I was going to suggest, which I had like a couple different options, ranging from like complete non emotion to snark, which was like, “Oh, why are you volunteering to take care of them when I have them?” Yeah, your response pretty great. Seems like you've been there. Seems like you understand how to answer that question. But Cristen, you've also shared a story with me about a friend of yours who answered this question in a way that I find just delightful.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Could you share that with Lily?
Cristen: I would love to. Now, Lily, this was totally not polite, but it sure as shit was effective. All right, I was hanging out with some friends and I love this exchange, Caroline, because it was between guys, one of my guy friends asked another one of my guy friends. "Hey, man one when are you and Jill thinking about thinking about kids? Is that on the table for y'all?" And my guy friend responded, “That’s nobody's fucking business.” And it was so abrupt and so perfect that we all just laughed and kept it moving. And it wasn't offensive, it was just like I mean, I truly wanted to stand and give him an ovation, because that is what I think a lot of us, a lot a lot of Lillys wish that we could say. That is not the polite thing to do. But the the lingering question that it left for me, Caroline, and a question that that listeners, if you have any insights on this, I would love to hear is, is the deeper question of just why and how women are so socialized to be polite, even in situations where someone is impolitely inserting themselves into your private feelings. Not not that hostility is the answer, but like. Why does it feel so important to not make anyone uncomfortable, and I include myself in this question, you know?
Caroline: Well, I remember - so similarly like I don't get that question very much anymore. And I think it's because I'm unmarried at 37 and also a loud professional feminist. My nuclear family for sure knows better than to ask. But about I would say like eight or so years ago, I was working, a you know, shitty day job. And I had a shitty coworker, and she didn't know me very well, but she still considered it her business enough to ask me, “Are you dating anyone?” “Yes, I am.” “Oh. Do you think you want kids?” Oh, my God, like first of all, that's a jump. And second of all, you don't know me. And I said “No, never have.” And she said she gave me that look and like the tick of the tongue, you know, she goes, “You'll change your mind.” And when I say that politeness was not my first thought. That’s like a mild way of putting it. And I think I blacked out a little bit, but from what I can recall, I told her that it was honestly pretty rude of her to say that to me. Lily, it sounds like the people perhaps that you're talking about are not being rude and that you, you know, in kind, you want to respond by being polite. But I will just put it out there that if someone is being a rude, nosy dick, there's no nothing wrong with responding like Cristen's guy friend did and shutting it down abruptly.
Cristen: Yeah. And and, Lily, if you're hearing this and you've already had your first kid and people are asking you now about your second, I would just recommend saying, “Well, you know, I think there might still be one up there,” and just leave it at that. “I think something's still cooking. I don't know.”
Caroline: “I think I left it at the bus stop.”
Cristen: We’re gonna take a quick break.
Caroline: When we come back, we dive into a listener's question about calling out racism … and it miiiiight get y'all a little fired up.
Cristen: Stick around!
[Stinger]
Caroline: We’re back. Now Cristen, our next letter is from a listener named Rachel, and Rachel writes, “Here's my question for you. As a white person, how can I call out racist comments from nonwhite people? I try to use my privilege for good, but I'm worried if I tell a nonwhite person their comments are racist, they'll pull the quote, ‘I can't be racist’ card.” Well?
Cristen: All right. Well.
Caroline: What do you think?
Cristen: I'm going to start by asking Rachel a question or asking Rachel to ask herself a question. Specifically, Rachel. I want to know before you say anything, why are you the person who needs to be calling them out? And that use of “calling out” is important here because calling someone out is inherently public, loud, it's disciplinary, so. To me, Caroline, calling out people of color for making racist comments just probably is not the best use of your white privilege. That doesn't mean that you have to engage with those, like, racist comments or you know kind of sit idly by. But the idea of calling out is the first snag that I hit.
Caroline: Yeah, yeah, agree, my first question upon reading this email was, why is it your place to do so? I don't know the circumstances. I don't know, Cristen, if Rachel is referring to a friend of hers, a complete stranger. I don't know if she's referring to a person of color being prejudiced against another person of color or if she's referring to a person of color saying something negative about white people. So much of Rachel's question reminded me of reading White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo, because D'Angelo has this whole section where she writes about distinguishing racism from prejudice and discrimination, basically an attempt to kind of shut down the very frequent claim from from white folks that like, well, you know, black people or fill in the blank, people of color can be racist, too. And that's why Cristen, I was saying that I was curious whether like she's watching a conversation happen or she's like a bystander. Or if she's feeling like there's some heat on her as a white person.
Cristen: Mm hmm. Well, as for specific advice I think it’s worth just saying plainly that hey if you’re a white person who wants to leverage their white privilege for good. Guess what? There are so many white people doing racist things all the time that you can call out. That, that is the way that you can leverage it. But as for Rachel’s specific question and these dynamics of white person hearing something something racist from a person of color my bottom line advice would be that if you want to use your white privilege for good, then don't be the white lady someone would feel comfortable letting off racist steam around. And that goes for other white people around you. It goes for people of color around you because, yes, everyone is capable and has the potential to be racist and to engage in racism. And that can simply mean saying like. Huh, I'm not sure about that, I disagree or you know what, that's not my lived experience to weigh in on and leave it at that. Specific to the situation of, you know, how do I call out a racist comment made by a person of color? Again, I don't think that it is on you. I do not think it is your place to call them out. But I do think it's your place and any person's place, really, to demonstrate that you're not you're not down for that, you don't think the way they do in that regard.
Caroline: Yeah, and I mean, you and I, Cristen, frequently on the podcast have recommended that if somebody is going to shut something down, whether it's racism or sexism or some other -ism. You know, a good thing to to say is “why?” You know, if this is a friend of yours. I agree with Cristen. Like don't be the person that they're comfortable saying prejudiced stuff to. But maybe rather than calling out, maybe think of it as just asking them why they think that, what has their experience been, why, why is this their line of thinking, you know, challenging it that way rather than looking at it as your sort of responsibility for whatever reason to be a white person who is calling out a person of color.
Cristen: And to that “why” I would add before that, again, “that's not my lived experience. That's not my lived experience to weigh in on. So, you know, let me ask you more about that. Like, why, why? Why do you feel that way?” And if they don't like that question and want to shut it down, that's also fine, but yeah. I do have I have a personal experience I want to share. But first, I have a language question for you, Caroline, and also a language question for you, Rachel, because one thing that also jumped out to me in this very, very brief question from Rachel is the “card,” the whole card thing, because I want to know rhetorically, OK, what is the difference between saying someone is, quote unquote, pulling the race card versus quote unquote, pulling the I can't be racist card? Because all I'm saying is if you're talking about people of color, quote unquote, pulling identity cards, then maybe another way to use your privilege for good is to examine the inherent racism of that language construct and why that is your primary worry.
Caroline: Oh, Cristen, that's a very good question. That's putting words to something that I had felt but didn't quite know how to articulate and yeah, it's inherently racist and it's inherently dismissive.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: It sounds to me like. Like and again, we don't know the exact nuances of whatever - whatever's happening with Rachel and the people around her, but it sounds like Rachel is pre dismissive of the concerns of whoever she's speaking with. Now, those concerns might be racist, those concerns might be valid. We don't know what the deal is, but I. Yeah, Cristen, great point. I do think that it. It is worth asking yourself, Rachel, if. If your own racism or feeling of superiority, perhaps, is - is at play here.
Cristen: Rachel, your question reminds me of an Uber ride I took once, the driver was a middle-aged Black guy, and almost as soon as my butt hit the backseat and the door closed, it became immediately evident that the driver seemed to think that I that I was a safe white lady audience for a kind of Bill Cosby-esque diatribe about young Black men wearing their pants too low. I kid you not. And this did not happen in the 90s. This was recent, I'm old, but not that old and. I I was definitely not going to sit there and try to - try to call him out in part because that's just that's not the space or time for it. But I think he also picked up pretty quickly that I I was not the ideal white lady audience because I, I just didn't engage with it. I sort of just let him talk himself out. And honestly, we rode most of the time just in silence, and I don't know if that means I just need to take more of my own advice. It probably does. But that's what I mean when I say, like. You. You cannot engage with something, you cannot give something more life without going the extra distance of calling it out, which would probably mean veering way out of your lane and into a space that that is not going to make anyone feel any better or see see the world more more kindly.
Caroline: You can find Negin on Twitter or Instagram @NeginFarsad or check out her podcast Fake the Nation, which we’ve actually guested on in the past!
Cristen: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.
Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.
Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin
Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.
Caroline: Next week...
Andraya Yearwood: Honestly, I think fairness in sports is being able to compete in the sport and with what you love or in which you love. So in my eyes, I think it's very unfair to deny kids and to to deny anyone the right or the ability to participate in a sport.
Cristen: We’re doing a deep dive into the recent onslaught of legislation looking to ban trans girls and women playing girls and women’s sports. We’ll talk with ESPN reporter Katie Barnes and trans runner Andraya Yearwood.
Caroline: You don’t want to miss that episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Cristen: And remember, got a problem?
Caroline: Get Unladylike.
