Transcript | Ep. 120: How to Run Like a Girl

[CLIP - CBS News]
Anchor: On Tuesday Florida Republican Governor Ron DeSantis signed a controversial bill banning transgender women and girls from female sports in the state.
Ron DeSantis: The bill that we’re doing today will ensure fairness for women athletes for years to come in the state of Florida. It says that athletic teams or sports that are designated for females are open to females. And we are gonna go based off biology not based off ideology.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Hey y'all and welcome to Unladylike. I'm Cristen.

Caroline: I'm Caroline.

Cristen: On June 1, Florida became the eighth state in the US to effectively ban trans girls and women from K-12 and college sports.

Caroline: The Florida law is called the Fairness in Women’s Sports Act. It requires schools to designate their teams based on quote “biological sex.” Not gender identity. Hence the refrain of “biology, not ideology.” And we’ll get into that biology later in the episode.

Cristen: These bills have been introduced in more than 20 other states just this year. At their core, they argue trans girls have “unfair” athletic advantages over cisgender girls, and therefore shouldn’t be allowed to participate at all.

Andraya: I mean, I really only went to the track to run my best and really only to go against myself and my times. But I mean, I did know that other people did have, like, you know some concerns with they had some issues with it. But I mean, I try not to think too much into it, and just like focus on myself, my own performance.

Caroline: That’s Andraya Yearwood. Her high school track career in Connecticut is referenced in practically all of these “fairness in women’s sports” bills for two reasons: She’s trans, and she’s fast.

Cristen: But Andraya couldn’t outrun the culture war that blew up around her and another trans student runner, Terry Miller. Later in this episode, we’ll talk to Andraya about what it’s like being a teenager and people suing to get you banned from your sport and what fairness in women’s sports means to her.

Caroline: But first, ESPN writer Katie Barnes is going to help us understand how we got here.

Katie: It's really really, I think, shocking to see play out. And the fact that a lot of this stemmed from, at least in this specific circumstance, just two girls who wanted to run and who won a few championships..

Cristen: And by "a lot of this," Katie means a full-blown political hysteria to #savegirlssports.... And brace yourself, that some news clips in this episode contain transphobic rhetoric

[Stinger]

[CLIP - News Montage]
Anchor 1: But now opportunities for women are being shoved aside for a new priority: transgender athletes
Anchor 2: It’s not fair, it’s not right, and I have to wonder, Ainsley, where are the feminists?
Anchor 3: We have to protect our girls. It is discriminatory to force them to compete against biological males.

Cristen: What y’all just heard was the right-wing media whipping themselves into a frenzy. So, quick background: Conservatives have been trying to legalize various forms of trans discrimination. First, they tried to pass so-called bathroom bills. But when those efforts fell flat, they picked a new strategy: targeting school sports. So now, Republicans across the country are sponsoring all of this anti-trans legislation -- even in states where there are no known trans student athletes.

Caroline: And like we heard earlier from ESPN writer Katie Barnes, most of that frenzy originated in Connecticut. Here's Katie.

Katie: So in 2017, Andraya Yearwood, who then was a freshman at Cromwell High School, began running in the girls category. She's transgender girl, and the Hartford Courant ran an article about her, a feature saying, “Here's this transgender girl. She's competing in the girls category, yay, go team.” And in that article, it was disclosed that Andraya Yearwood had not begun hormone replacement therapy.

Caroline: That article also clarified that, according to Connecticut’s policy on public-school sports participation, you don’t have to be on hormone replacement therapy in order to compete on the team that aligns with your gender identity.

Cristen: We should also note, there’s also no nationwide, uniform policy on who gets to play for the boys or the girls’ teams in US public schools. Instead, it's up to each state.

Caroline: So in Connecticut, there was nothing stopping Andraya from running on the girls' team. And she did great! Over the course of her freshman season in 2017, she won two state championships. It wasn't until her sophomore year that the trouble began.

Cristen: That’s because in 2018, another trans girl named Terry Miller began running for her high school. Andraya and Terry were the only two trans girls running track in Connecticut. Cut to the state track and field championships. In the 100 meter race, Terry took first, and Andraya took second. Terry also won the 200 meter. Those victories made national news AND prompted petitions to get Andraya and Terry booted from girls' track.

Caroline: Meanwhile, complaints about Andraya, Terry and those 1, 2 finishes were becoming culture-war catnip in conservative and right-wing media circles. Some parents and students argued that Terry and Andraya had a biological advantage that made them naturally faster than the cis girls they were competing against. And again, we'll dig into the science later - but spoiler: it's definitely not so clear cut.

Cristen: One of the cis girls who raised a ruckus was Selina Soule. She had raced against Andraya and Terry and started speaking out publicly, arguing that Connecticut’s school sports policy was unfair and that trans girls were basically a threat to girls’ sports. Here’s Selina on Tucker Carlson in 2019. Trigger warning for transphobia and misgendering.

[CLIP - Tucker Carlson]
Tucker: So Selina, tell us your story. You were in a race. Two biological males were allowed to compete and you didn’t make it by two slots. Is that correct?
Selina: Yes, it is. I came eighth place and the top 6 qualified for the regional New England meet. And if those two athletes weren’t competing I would’ve been the sixth girl, and I would’ve moved on and advanced.

Caroline: Selina’s argument that she was robbed of a qualifying spot by two trans girls gets to the deeper stakes of this whole debate. Here’s ESPN writer Katie Barnes again.

Katie: The conversation that we're having right now culturally is mostly based on what you believe to be true morally or philosophically and not necessarily what's true scientifically. And I think that's what this really comes down to, is it's fine for transgender kids to compete as long as they don't win. But then once they win, it's suddenly unfair.

Cristen: The group leading the charge against transgender inclusion is a rightwing Christian legal advocacy group called the Alliance Defending Freedom, or ADF. It’s basically the anti-ACLU. And to give you a sense of where they’re coming from, one of the ADF’s primary goals is to stop — in their words — the “homosexual agenda.”

Katie: They are most well-known, I suppose, for arguing in front of the Supreme Court in defense of the baker in Colorado who wished to not bake a cake for a gay couple there. But they are very influential when it comes to a lot of the different types of legislation that we have seen being debated and discussed when it comes to LGBTQ folks around the country. For example, some of the bathroom bills, and then now, they've been very involved in the transgender athlete legislation that we've seen too.

Caroline: Unsurprisingly the ADF was very involved with that banner case in Connecticut. After the 2019 track season, the ADF filed a Title IX complaint with the US Department of Education. It was like, “Hey DOE, Connecticut allows any student who identifies as a girl to participate in girls’ sports. And y’all need to stop them because it’s not fair to cisgender girls.”

Cristen: To support their case, the ADF filed that complaint on behalf of three cisgender girls - including Selina Soule who you heard from a couple minutes ago in that Tucker Carlson segment. All three of those girls ran track and had lost to Andraya and Terry.

Caroline: That Title IX complaint eventually led to the ADF filing a federal lawsuit against the Connecticut Association of Schools in 2020.

Cristen: One day after that federal lawsuit is filed, it’s the regional track meet. All five girls named in the lawsuit have qualified. In fact, Andraya and Terry are slated to face off in the 55-meter dash against Chelsea Mitchell, one of the cisgender girls suing to ban them.

Caroline:The runners take their marks. Andraya false starts, and that disqualifies her from the race. The remaining girls take off, and Chelsea BEATS Terry Miller by .02 seconds.

Cristen: That’s right — one of the cisgender girls claiming “unfairness” beat one the trans girls she's complaining about. But those kinds of inconvenient details usually get left out of the story. Like when cis plaintiff Selina Soule continues making the rounds on FOX News.

[CLIP -Laura Ingraham show]
Laura Ingraham: Joining me now exclusively — I’m so happy to see them all, it’s like a Connecticut reunion here — the high school track and field stars behind this lawsuit: Chelsea Mitchell, Alanna Smith and Selina Soule. And their attorney, Christiana Holcomb. All right Selina I’m gonna start with you, and it’s not just because you're a Glastonbury High School senior, where I went to school. What was the final straw that sparked this legal action?
Selina Soule: It was just the continued unfairness in our sport.
Laura Ingraham: And you were a you know top top runner. And what happened to you that made you feel like you were you know being treated unfairly?
Selina: I lost out on countless opportunities to get placements, get titles, and qualify for further meets to display my talents to college coaches.
Laura: Did you actually lose competitions to - meets to male athletes, biological males?
Selina: Every single meet that I’ve competed against them.
Laura: So is that 4 total, or more?
Selina: Countless times.
Laura: Oh, countless times? Well, we probably could count but we’ll say it’s a lot

Cristen: We probably could count, Laura Ingraham, but we’ll scare a shit ton more parents if we just round it up to “A LOT!” Selina also doesn't mention the fact that she has lost to far more cisgender girls than trans girls.

Caroline: And by the way, Andraya and Terry lost plenty of races, too. When Andraya made it to nationals in the 55 meter in 2019, for instance, she placed 30th.

Cristen: So again, cis girls beating trans girls in races. that can and does happen.

Caroline: Has science been able to help settle the debate about whether it’s fair for trans girls to compete against cis girls? Like, is there an objective, black-and-white answer?

Katie: There isn't. I think - the reason why there is not is that the science is relatively unsettled, and I don't think the science says what anyone wants it to say, no matter on what side of the argument that you're on.

Cristen: One big reason why the scientific evidence can seem so inconclusive is that ALL bodies are different, y’all. To quote the NCAA — which publicly supports trans inclusion — “Many people have a stereotype that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true.”

Caroline: It’s ALSO not true that extra testosterone makes you unbeatable. In fact, testosterone appears to give you an edge in surprisingly few sports. Sprinting, hammer throw, pole vault — that’s about it.

Cristen: Plus, when it comes to these school sports bans, Katie Barnes points out that the national debate is ignoring a pretty important detail….

Katie: We're talking about ostensibly children. We're talking about people who are competing in K-12 athletics and, you know, regulating access to K-12 sports. That means inherently we're going to be talking about people who are mostly under the age of 18, and we're talking about medical treatment for mostly - for people who are mostly under the age of 18. And that, I think, actually has completely dissipated from the discussion. You know, the fact that we're - that what is appropriate at the elite level, thinking about Olympic level, NCAA Division One level is not appropriate for 13-year-olds. And so that, I think - that nuance is being lost because I think folks really want an easy answer. And there isn't one, largely because we're still figuring out how, like what this looks like scientifically and what the effects of having folks of all genders participate together in a really binary system, what that actually looks like. You know at the end of the day, do you believe that transgender girls are girls? And if you don't, then I don't think you will ever think that they're that they're competing in girls and women's sports is going to be fair, regardless of what the science tells us. And I think that part is hard. That's a really hard bridge to build, frankly.

Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, we’ll be joined by Andraya Yearwood

Caroline: Stick around.

[Midroll]

Andraya: I remember honestly being in my room and Terry had actually, I think, called me and she FaceTimed me saying, like, there's a lawsuit. And I was like kind of confused. Like what? Like what are you talking about? Like what? And she kind of explained it to me, like there was a lawsuit against us running. And like I was just I was very drained. I mean, that we had gone through people saying stuff online, over social media, people saying things. I mean, in person, you know, even the petition and just now like another thing we have to go through.

Caroline: We're back, and we’re talking with Andraya Yearwood. Remember, she and Terry Miller are the two trans girls who were targeted in a federal lawsuit back in 2020 in an attempt to ban both of them from running girls’ track in Connecticut.

Cristen: So, Andraya, tell us what - what drew you to running in the first place?

Andraya: So and I guess in our family, we always just gravitated towards sports like I've done sports all my life. And then in seventh grade I started and I just I loved it. I just loved being able, I guess, just to run. I just liked also how the sport was also very individual, but also like very I guess had a team kind of essence to it because, I mean, as I got into high school and things. I guess each person can kind of advance at their own pace, pace for lack of a better term.

Cristen: When Andraya came out as trans and decided she wanted to run on the girls’ high school track team, the process was initially nbd. The summer before her freshman year, she and her parents met with the principal and vice principal, the athletic director and some coaches.

Andraya: And we kind of all sat down and it was like, OK, and I told them how I was trans and how I wanted to be and how I want to be addressed as female within the school and by my administration and by my peers. And they were all cool with that. The only, I guess, rule that they had that they had was that if I was going to present myself as female within like the classroom that I also had to do so with within athletics, which wasn’t a problem to me, that I was going to do that anyway, but there wasn't any, like adversity or anything. Everything went pretty easily.

Caroline: So what do you remember about running your first girls’ track meet like, how did it feel?

Andraya: Honestly. It was a big sigh of relief, again, being able to participate on the team with which I knew I'd identified with and which I knew I belonged on, but then. On the other hand, it was. I mean, obviously it was different, I'd never experienced before and I never run on the females’ team. So it kind of had it was kind of something to get used to and especially with all the everything, all the negative comments you were saying about me throughout the state and throughout my years in high school, but I think overall it was a very obviously positive experience and I was just overall very glad to be able to express myself in the way that I knew I should and just be able to run with the people in which I knew I should be running with.

Caroline: But it was lonely. That’s something Andraya and her family talk about in a new Hulu documentary about trans kids in sports called Changing the Game.

Cristen: Andraya, in the documentary, your mom mentions that there really were no Black, trans athletic role models for you, and I was wondering how that affected you.

Andraya: I think it kind of affected me negatively and I think a lot more than I care to admit just because. I mean, like I said, I had to go through a lot of what I went through alone, like not really having anyone to confide in or again like not really having anyone to look up to like everything I did. I was kind of like the first to do in my experience, and, I mean there was no one to look up to for advice. And at times I didn't even know what I was doing and I kind of had to just, like, deal with it and suck it up. But there wasn't anybody I could really ask for advice.

Cristen: So there is a really intense scene in the documentary where you finish racing and a parent in the crowd just starts screaming at you, basically

[CLIP from Changing the Game]
Parent: That’s so unfair. It is totally a male biology. Women did not fight for decades for - under - for Title IX, for decades to have equal rights to have them taken away by foolish policies that are discriminatory against girls and women. People are afraid to speak up because they are afraid they are gonna be accused of being discriminatory. They are not being discriminatory. It’s ridiculous. It has made a mockery of girls' sports. It’s made a mockery of girls’ and women’s rights. It’s a total sham.

Cristen: When did that kind of harassment start happening at meets, or was that - was that just a one-off kind of experience?

Andraya: So that was the first time anyone had ever said any - said anything like to my face. Other times again, it had been like behind my back. And like just like little whispers here and there, but that had definitely been the first time someone had ever, like, turned around to look at me and say those things to my face.

Cristen: I mean, how did you feel in that moment?

Andraya: Yeah, um. Kind of like taken aback, like, wow, she really has the like the nerve to look at me and say this to me like you're bold. I kind of just looked at her. And I guess I think I was just too shocked in the moment to say anything back or to come up with anything to say like OK, this girl - this lady is pretty ignorant doesn't know what she's talking about so I'm not going to sit here and waste my energy and time in, like, giving her the thought or give it, like giving her any more attention she thinks she has. So I just kind of brushed it off and like kind of like ignored it. But yeah, I think in the moment I was very shocked.

Caroline: Andraya was also floored when she found out which cisgender girls were named in the lawsuit trying to ban her and Terry from running.

Andraya: I remember being very shocked because one of the plaintiffs I was I had considered to be somewhat like cordial. Like I remember on social media, we would congrat - I mean on social media and in person, we would congratulate one another on our on our events, on like on how we did how we did in those events. So I thought we were, you know, pretty OK. And then all of a sudden to just see her to be one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit and also doesn't want me to run. I was very taken aback and very kind of like, oh, OK, like, I see where you stand now

Caroline: This spring, a judge dismissed the federal lawsuit filed by the ADF in Connecticut. Both of the trans girls being targeted, Andraya and Terry — had graduated. The whole case became a moot point since the ADF could not identify any other trans girls running track in the state. The group, of course, has appealed the decision.

Cristen: It’s also worth noting that both girls had been on hormone replacement therapy for a while by the time that lawsuit was originally filed.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we pick back up with ESPN writer Katie Barnes who will explain why women’s athletics arouse SO much gender panic.

Cristen: Stick around.

[Stinger]

Katie: Sports really matters culturally, it's you know, sport determines in so many ways like how kids see themselves, like in terms of gender, like if you think about it, we even have like super gendered sports," there's so much emotional cultural baggage that comes with sport, which means that a lot of times we're not talking about things from a rational perspective proponents of this legislation will flat out say boys shouldn't play girls’ sports. And OK, sure. But that's also not what we're talking about. But that is something that I think has been able to really seep into our cultural conversation and really dictate the narrative.

Cristen: We’re back with ESPN writer Katie Barnes.

Caroline: As Katie points out, the gender baggage packed into sports is hardly new.

Katie: I mean, the debate has been happening for the entirety of the history of women's sports as we know it. So women's sport was created as a protected category. There - if you look at the history of women’s sports and sport in general, like there's always been this fear of men masquerading as women to dominate women's sports because it's an easier playing field. Right. You know, heavy air quotes. And just as there has always been a drive to police women's sports, there have always been people who don't fit into what that acceptable womanhood is. And that that line has changed over time, but, you know, it's always, always been present.

Cristen: In 1948, Olympic officials started requiring a doctor’s note to verify the sex of female athletes. And in the 60s, at the height of the Cold War, when Communist countries were suspected of entering men in women’s events, sex testing became compulsory.

Caroline: The first version of this testing? A little thing called “nude parades.” This literally involved female athletes stripping down in front of doctors and sometimes being physically groped.

Cristen: In 1968, the Olympics shifted to using chromosomal tests. But guess what? “Biological sex” isn’t actually clear cut, either.

Caroline: Case in point: South African runner Caster Semenya. Semenya is the reigning Olympic champion in the 800 meter and she’s had to endure YEARS of intense gender policing. Semenya is intersex, which means she has X and Y chromosomes, as well as hyperandrogenism, meaning her body produces excess testosterone. And this wasn't a big deal ... until she started winning gold medals. After that, she was subjected to genital exams, blood testing, and in 2018, she was ordered to take medication to lower her testosterone, something she has refused to do.

Katie: You know, Caster is not trans, but the issues are, I would say, like cousins, if that makes sense. Like, we're all sort of playing in the same gender and sport sandbox. And, you know, and what Caster experienced is not dissimilar from what we're talking about when it comes to high school sports. Even though we're talking about different identities, we're talking about different situations. The specifics are different. Thematically, they are absolutely related.

Cristen: The testing, the hyper concern about gender and anatomy — it all has a through line straight to lawsuits and legislation we’re seeing now. For example, the ADF wants to require K-12 trans students to get chromosomal testing and go through invasive medical examinations just to play school sports.

Caroline: There’s one group of student athletes we haven’t mentioned this entire episode who are also being targeted by these bans: trans boys. Nobody on FOX News is ranting about “fairness in men’s sports.” But that doesn’t mean they’re getting left out of the fairness legislation.

Cristen: Yeah, Katie says that some of the legislation targets trans boys by classifying testosterone as a banned substance. So if trans boys have started testosterone hormone therapy, they’re technically doping and can’t compete. So we asked Katie Barnes what does the future hold not only for these laws, but for these kids.

Katie: I don't know that I see very much good, honestly, from a policy perspective. I think that in general, from the families that I've talked to, there's a lot of fear, a lot of concern that even if their kid hrasn't experienced discrimination at this point in time, but that they might in the future, even if they're allowed to play on the girls’ team now, that when puberty happens, that may not be the case. And I think there's a lot of that. I think families are really, really worried about their kids in terms of just being able to access the sports that they love, but also just you know what it means to have like who you are being demonized in the press and by state houses. You know, the impact of that, I think, is really devastating in a way that we're not going to fully understand for years to come.

Cristen: In the two years since the ADF filed that initial Title IX complaint, all but one of the girls involved have graduated from high school. The cisgender runners who are now at college — Selina Soule and Chelsea Mitchell — are both on track scholarships. They are publicly committed to appealing the lawsuit all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.

Caroline: Andraya is now a college freshman. She’s studying Spanish and political science, and she advocates on behalf of trans athletes like herself in her free time.

Cristen: So we have to talk about the F word. And by that I mean fairness, because it seems like that is the word constantly used in the you know, in this this whole debate. So what does fairness in sports mean to you?

Andraya: Honestly, I just think fairness in sports is being able to compete in the sport and with which you love. I mean, a lot of kids are aren't able to participate, whether - in sport, whether it be track, soccer, football, due to a lot of circumstances and due to a lot of reasons. I think being able to participate in the sport is a privilege in itself. I mean, I think that's pretty fair. I think it's pretty unfair to kind of deny kids the opportunity to have fun in a sport that's - I mean, the whole reason to play a sport is to have fun and is to enjoy yourself among your peers. So in my eyes, I think it's pretty unfair to deny kids and to to deny anyone the right or the ability to participate in a sport.

Cristen: As for Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood’s running careers? For now, they’re over.

Caroline: Do you miss running competitively at this point?

Andraya: A lot. Yes. I mean, even while I was in school, there were a lot of times where I wish I had done track. I wish you know, I did track in college. Like, oh, maybe I should do it next year. But I think I’ve just come to the conclusion that, like, that chapter of my life has closed and there’s a chapter that needs to reopen while in college. But yeah, they're definitely times where I miss running.

Caroline: And is there anything that you wish folks understood better about trans girls and women in sports?

Andraya: I wish people just understood that this conversation isn't solely about like biological and the biological aspects of us running in sport like there are, there's a lot more to trans athletes and to trans people in general, and to solely kind of confine us in this box of, you know, what we have in our pants, just I mean, it's not necessarily fair to us. And I mean, a lot of I mean, a lot of trans athletes, I mean, a lot of people in general play sports again just to have fun and just to enjoy themselves with their peers. And I mean, that's all we want to do. A lot of people assume that trans athletes want to participate in sport just so they win medals or run across the finish line first. And I mean, that's not really ever the case I just wish people stop assuming that about us.

Caroline: You can find Katie Barnes on Twitter @katie_barnes3 and find their writing over at ESPN. Changing the Game, the documentary featuring Andraya Yearwood is now out on Hulu. Go check that out. It’s so good!

Cristen: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes like our most recent ep on BBLs!!, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media. Special thanks to Clare Tucker for her help with this episode.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week...

Shereen: I remember one conversation I had with a booker at a doctor's office and she was like, well, you'd be number 80 on the waiting list.

Cristen: Oh, my God.

Shereen: And I was like I was like, so many women are suffering, so many women are suffering and so few OBGYNs or GYNs specialize in this and know about this and treat this. And when you're looking for somebody and you're looking for help, it's it's really hard to find and it takes forever to find it.

Cristen: We’re talking to Shereen Marisol Meraji, host of the podcast Code Switch about endometriosis — a condition that 1 in 10 women have!! We’ll be talking to Shereen and student scientist Meghan Martin about their endo journeys and Meghan tells us about her amazing idea that could change how endometriosis gets diagnosed.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss that episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get Unladylike.