Transcript | Ep. 118: Dating After Sexual Assault

D.M.: Getting better was awful. It was it was excruciating, but it was so incredibly worth it. There was a while where I didn't know if I could get better and where I didn't know if I could have a normal life again. And I am now happier than I've ever been, healthier than I've ever been. And I got to because I took my whole life apart and disassembled it all. I got to put it all back together exactly how I wanted it.

[Theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. This episode, we’re discussing sexual trauma and PTSD. So heads up if you'd prefer to sit this episode out.

Caroline: Last week on the show, Tanya Selvaratanam told us about exiting an abusive relationship with former New York attorney general Eric Schneiderman. This week, we’re focusing on something that we rarely talk about: You’ve survived sexual trauma. But then what?

Judith: One of the things that like my past self immediately afterwards, or when I was starting to process my trauma, would like to know is, you know, what's normal for a rape survivor? What does it look like after somebody has experienced a rape or sexual assault? You know, what are their attitudes? What are their beliefs? What are they thinking?

Cristen: That’s Judith. She’s one of a number of Unladylike listeners who’ve reached out to us with similar questions — and that’s why we wanted to make this episode. The ripple effects of rape and abuse are real. There can be loss of trust. Unexpected triggers. PTSD. There is a whole range of what is “normal.”

Caroline: Another big question that Judith and other listeners brought up was like managing the day to day ripple effects can be really shitty, yes. But what about dating?? How do you approach sexual intimacy again?

Cristen: Caroline, you and I are definitely not equipped to answer those questions on our own. So we will be getting some expert insights later in the show.

Caroline: Then, we do have a happy ending. Not to spoil it. We're going to be talking with the woman y'all heard at the top of the episode. We're calling her DM, and she’s another one of the Unladylike listeners who wrote to us about life and dating after sexual assault. DM's story is proof that yes, you can come out on the other side.

Cristen: But first, we're starting with Judith.

[Stinger]

Caroline: Back in November 2019, Judith emailed Unladylike. She wrote: I wanted to ask if you could do a sort of dive into life after rape. I ask because I myself was raped multiple times while serving in the military, and I'm still suffering from the physical, mental and emotional trauma a decade later. I have panic attacks whenever I even think I’m being hit on. How do I rebuild my Self, when that idea of who I was and am has been seemingly so irrevocably damaged?” So, a few weeks ago, we called Judith up to talk about it.

Cristen: Well in that email, you expressed a desire for, quote, returning to the woman I was before the rapes. So how would you describe that woman?

Judith: Oh, my goodness. I mourn her every day. I was very young when it happened. So it's kind of like also mourning my teenage self. Before that had happened, I was bold. I was outgoing. I was friends to everybody. I was you know unapologetic in who I was and I just now, you know, after everything that had happened, I have found that, you know, my trust for people is gone. I find it difficult to make friends. I find it difficult to even trust my family members at this point. So what I'm looking for is a return to being more confident in who I am and who I was and having that sort of self-confidence in trusting others and that vulnerability in trusting others.

Cristen: For years after the rapes, Judith was in full denial about what had happened. She told us that in the initial phase of that denial, she became hypersexual, trying to convince herself that it wasn’t rape, it was what she wanted.

Judith: A lot of it was fear too, the denial phase. There was so much fear and anxiety. And that I felt like there was literally no one I could turn to, not a single person on the entire Earth. I couldn't tell my parents. And anyways, what could they do? You know, I didn't have friends that I could turn to and say, “Oh, fuck, this is what I'm going through.” You know, it was it was one of the loneliest experiences in my life.

Caroline: What were dating and relationships like at that time?

Judith: Oh, my gosh, let's see, I tried my best, really, to be in a relationship afterwards. But because, again, I didn't have that trust with people and I wasn't able to quote unquote, perform the sort of expected relationship intimacy, I found it difficult to connect with people. I had two very serious relationships to the point where we were engaged. And the frustration that those gentlemen had you know experienced with me reached a boiling point to where there was mistrust, there was distrust, and there was a lot of suspicion, and why I wasn't intimate with them and why I would not open up with them. And after the second, you know, relationship imploded, I just I swore off relationships altogether. I haven't been in a relationship for the better half of a decade now.

Caroline: In that first relationship Judith mentioned, she disclosed what had happened to her boyfriend. But she quickly regretted it.

Judith: You know, he was as young as I was. I think we were both 20 at the time. And he didn't really have the tools or the knowledge or the experience to handle that sort of trauma that his loved one was going through, but he straight up asked me, well, it's been nine months, why aren't you over this yet? And oh my God. After that, I just completely shut down. I was like, OK, in my head. That lesson was just instantly learned. Do not open up about this because they will not care, you know? And then after that relationship had ended and I got into my second serious relationship, I was way more hesitant to tell them what had happened. And it was to the point where it was a big secret that I had that I couldn't reveal to anybody because, you know, I didn't want that sort of rejection and that sort of re traumatization of not believing why I was behaving the way I was and why I was so cold and distant to the people around me.

Caroline: Where do you see dating and relationships fitting into the healing process now? Like, is that something that you want to feel -

Judith: Absolutely.

Caroline: safe enough to pursue in the future?

Judith: Yeah, absolutely. That's actually one of the main reasons I started going to therapy. I thought maybe if I was able to get into a relationship and have that, you know, other person to lean on, then, you know, maybe I could speed up my recovery process. I could finally say, “Check, I'm done, I'm healed.” But that's not the case. And, you know, I haven't been in a relationship. The more that I'm opening up and acknowledging my trauma in my past and what had happened to me, the more difficult I find it personally to try and engage in a relationship with somebody else, because I'm able to acknowledge that I don't like men touching me and that when I panic when a guy starts showing interest in me or flirting, you mean a conversation, it's not me being crazy, it's because of what had happened. I've only been in therapy for two years, almost three now. So there's still a lot of healing that I have to go through. But I'm not in a place yet to where I'm comfortable enough to be in a relationship as much as I want it. God, I really want to you know, I really want to be in a relationship. But me personally, I am not ready. Um, so I think just hearing that what I'm doing and the feelings that I'm feeling and the thoughts that I'm having and the actions that I'm doing, even though I knew that they don't make sense, maybe they make sense, you know, in the broader picture for rape and sexual assault survivors.

Cristen: Judith's feeling and actions DO make sense. We’re gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, our expert is going to help us answer Judith's questions about what IS normal for grappling with — and healing from — sexual trauma.

Caroline: Stick around.

[Stinger]

Cristen We’re back, and it's time to call in our expert to walk us through the nuances of life and relationships after sexual trauma. Quick disclaimer: This is not a therapy session or medical advice.

Dr Ho: When you think about people who have been through sexual trauma, a big part of what gets taken from them because of what has happened to them, at least temporarily, until they recover and get help and start to heal, is that they feel like their sense of agency and their sense of control was taken away.

Caroline: That’s Dr. Judy Ho. She is a clinical and forensic psychologist and a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. She specializes in sexual violence, its impact and PTSD.

Cristen: Post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, is a common side effect of sexual trauma - even though it's often overlooked. For instance, it took years for listener Judith to finally get diagnosed with and treated for her PTSD.

Caroline: So Dr Ho, we spoke with an unladylike listener named Judith who’s just about two or three years into therapy dealing with her PTSD, and she asked us a couple of questions. And one of those was basically like, “What is normal for trauma survivors?” So, obviously you know it’s different for everyone, but is there a general course of how healing goes? And and how can we reassure this listener?

Dr Ho: Yeah, this is a really good question. I think this listener's experience is really relatable. And the first thing I would say to reassure this listener is that luckily we know so many scientifically proven treatments for PTSD, and if one doesn't work for you, you can try the next. You know, so there's so many different ways to heal. And we do know that PTSD is treatable. So definitely don't give up hope on that. But there is absolutely no one course for how people recover. Some people, it takes them maybe a few months at the outset to start to get some symptom relief. And then things are going pretty well for a while. But then you know again, later in life, they get triggered by something and then they might have to go back into therapy again and work through those things. That's not a failure in any way. And then for some people, the trauma recovery path is kind of windy. You know, they go to treatment, and it gets a little bit worse before it gets better because you finally start to process these things and a lot of raw emotions are coming out. And that's not the time to give up on therapy. Know that that's part of the process that it is going to start feeling a little bit worse before it starts to feel better. But that is a really necessary step in the recovery journey. And for everybody, the length of that time where they kind of have to sit with that discomfort is a little different.

Cristen: Dr. Ho says that a lot of times, people who’ve experienced sexual trauma go through a period where they aren’t consciously registering what happened to them. Maybe they can’t even remember big parts of the traumatic event. Those are also hallmarks of PTSD.

Dr Ho: I think the reason why PTSD is more common among sexual assault survivors is it's an experience that robs a person of that feeling of active agency. Again, being a human being, we need to feel like we're in control of our world and that we are able to enact good outcomes in our lives. And when something like that happens, it's so shocking, and it changes even your self concept in the way that you view the world. So it's very pervasive in terms of how it can change the person's worldview and how they feel like they fit into that world.

Caroline: A survivor with PTSD might hold onto negative, irrational beliefs like “I am bad,” or, you know, like in Judith’s case, “No one can be trusted.” Other PTSD symptoms can look like intrusive thoughts, dreams or memories — or, on the flipside, actively avoiding any potential reminders.

Cristen: PTSD can also change stress responses, like how you react. So survivors might be extra irritable, easily startled or prone to angry outbursts.

Caroline: So our listener Judith also told us that after she was raped, she initially went through a hypersexual phase. And later on, she felt a total dip in her sexual and romantic desires. Is there a connection between experiencing sexual trauma and then going on to be either hypersexual or hyposexual?

Dr Ho: Definitely. And I think it can really go both ways. Some people go through sexual trauma, and then they become very closed off. They isolate socially, they stop dating. They don't want to have anything to do with sex. They make themselves look essentially asexual in some ways, like they kind of dull down any part of their appearance that would make them look like a sexual being. And, of course, that's a form of self-protection. But conversely, people who become hypersexual after a sexual trauma, it can also be seen as a protective mechanism, because as I mentioned before, when somebody experiences sexual trauma, the biggest things that are taken away from them are a sense of agency and control. And so if you are the one who is going out there dictating when you're going to have sex with people and how, then there's a sense of regaining that control, even though, of course, it can lead to a spiral of other types of negative repercussions and emotions for the person. But in the moment, and I think sometimes it's not a conscious decision, it can almost be seen as a misshapen coping mechanism to try to establish agency and control like, well, this is up to me. I'm the one who decides when I have sex and when people can see my body naked and all of these types of things. And so we definitely see a reaction in both directions. And it's not necessarily always predictable which way people are going to go.

Cristen: We’ve also heard from a number of listeners who are looking for advice on how to date after sexual trauma or sexual assault. What is your advice in terms of approaching that when you are kind of still still in the thick of working through those traumas, but you you want to find a loving relationship?

Dr Ho: If the trauma is still very, very raw, then it's probably helpful to not get into any deep relationships like new relationships for just a little while while you're trying to work through those symptoms, because during that time you're so vulnerable. And people who have been through sexual trauma, sometimes they have a difficulty enacting boundaries or trusting their intuition, and sometimes they end up reenacting the trauma that they experienced by inviting in partners that remind them of people who have traumatized them in the past. And so you definitely need to step carefully if you feel like your PTSD symptoms are still very raw. But after you've been in treatment for a while and you can see yourself making progress, of course you know, human connection is so important to everyone and people who have been through PTSD, you know, one of the goals of treatment is to restore their faith in humanity and to give them access to positive relationships so that they know what that feels like as opposed to abusive relationships and traumatic experiences. And so it's important for them to kind of take a little time, work on getting their intuition back and trusting themselves to make good decisions about only letting positive people that would be helpful for their recovery into their lives and healing people into their lives.

Cristen: So let's say survivors are to a point in their recovery where they feel ready and safe to pursue relationships. You mentioned earlier the importance of boundaries — are there other important things to keep in mind in terms of getting back into dating?

Dr Ho: Yeah, I think that it's important for everyone to know that, you know, what might be OK one day may not be OK the next day. And that's a very common experience for people with PTSD that some days they may feel like being intimate, and it's great. And other days they're just having maybe some resurgence of symptoms, and they're not really ready to be intimate. And I think that it's just really important for them to communicate directly to their partners. They should share as much as they feel comfortable sharing. They don't necessarily need to tell their partner everything that happened but might consider telling their partner, you know, “I've been through some pretty difficult experiences, and sometimes it makes it difficult for me to be comfortable with physical intimacy. So please understand that sometimes if I'm saying no, it's not you, it's just something that I'm dealing with. But I'm actively trying to work on it.” And maybe there's a different way that we can have some kind of physical intimacy without going to a sexual place.”

Cristen: So one of the themes that we’ve heard from a lot of Unladylike listeners is the loneliness and isolation that can happen, because they don’t know who to talk to about the sexual trauma or how to talk about it. So in terms of disclosure, do you have suggestions for how to have those conversations?

Dr Ho: Well, first, ask yourself why you want to disclose it to these people. Is there a particular reason? Is it because you can see that it's affecting your friendship? Is it because you need that added support and you believe this person is going to be a supportive person? You know, really get clear with why you are telling this person about your trauma. Sometimes when people are very emotional, they might decide to disclose because they just need a little bit of nurturance and attention in that moment. And then later on they regret it because that the response that they were hoping for is not the one that they got. And so I think it's important just to understand what the purpose is before you really decide, is this going to be a person that I feel safe telling, or is this a person who, depending on their response, I might feel triggered by and you certainly want to only tell people who you can be pretty assured that they're going to have a supportive response to what you're going to say. And I think it really - there is no hard and fast rule. Some people, when they disclose their traumas, they will talk about all the details, and other people when they disclose the trauma, they just kind of want to talk about in one or two sentences what happened and then leave it at that and say, “I'm working through it. It's been very difficult for me,” instead of going into all of the details. And it really just depends on your relationship with that person and what's going to make you feel better, what's going to be most important for your healing. And for some people, talking about the details is healing because they have avoided it for so long that finally by talking about it, it's out in the open. And just by that alone, they can feel a little bit better about where they are.

Caroline: And sometimes that means writing an entire memoir about what happened. When we come back from a quick break, Unladylike listener DM Ditson tells us about how she navigated the path to healing.

Cristen: Stick around.

[Stinger]

Cristen: We’re back, and we’re talking with writer and Unladylike listener DM Ditson. Two years ago, DM published a memoir about her experiences as a survivor of sexual assault titled Wide Open.

D.M.: When I was writing my book, the advice that I got was, “Leave out the recovery part, like it's it's long and messy and complicated, and we just want to hear about the bad thing that happened and that you're fine now.” And I think that is a much easier narrative for people. But I think it's really, really important for us to talk about what does recovery look like and what does it look like when someone is at the depths of the suffering and starting to get better?

Caroline: DM’s story is basically a case study of exactly that. After years of navigating her trauma, PTSD and therapy, DM started to get better. But not before, like Dr. Ho said, things got a little worse.

Cristen: So in your email to us, you referred to “the assault that broke my brain.” So how did it break your brain, so to speak?

D.M.: Well, so the assault I'm talking about, I was 18, and I got post-traumatic stress disorder as a result. What happened to me, I won't go into detail about it here. I think it's good for people to have the opportunity to opt in and consent to hearing that part of the story. But what happened for me is, I was fighting that man off and I realized I was going to lose, and my body shut down. So like my arm that I was pushing him away with collapsed, and my brain turned off. So for a long time, for years and years and years, I thought the end of what I remembered was the end of what happened, which is not true. And in my in my recovery, I learned more about that. But what happened for me is, my brain, my brain shut down. I developed post-traumatic stress disorder. And then I had a lot of complications as a result of that. So when I say it broke my brain, I mean, it made me really sick without even knowing that anything was wrong. Right, and it had lots of implications in my life, it had lots of implications in relationships that I got into, it meant that I was even more vulnerable to assault in the future because my body was used to, oh, if I get scared and I try and say no and it doesn't work, then I would freeze. And that's kind of that's that's a natural response that we have. But I think it happens even more with PTSD where it's just automatic. “Oh, I'm scared now. Now I'll just close down altogether.”

Cristen: After she was assaulted, DM went from one abusive relationship to another. When she eventually found herself in what she calls the best relationship she’d ever been in, she reached a breaking point. Like Judith, DM's undiagnosed PTSD understandably got in the way of fully connecting. When that relationship ended, the rejection was devastating.

D.M.: I just remember laying on the floor and being like, either I can have a terrible life or I can do something to get better because obviously something is wrong.

Caroline: DM knew she needed help. She quit her job, and for 14 months, she dedicated herself entirely to getting better. Her therapist specialized in a new type of trauma recovery called somatic experiencing.

D.M.: It's kind of it's kind of like a mindfulness exercise where you pay attention to what's happening in your body. And what was happening in my body almost constantly was the feeling of trauma. And so I had very easy access to it for for our work together. So we we would pay attention to what's happening in my body. And then she would ask me, is there any part of you that wants to move? Is there any part of you that wants to do something or speak or push something? And I found that there was an awful lot of words stuck in my throat that wanted to come out like there were screams. There was a lot of like there was lots of swearing. There was lots of like like no one stop.

Cristen: DM’s therapist helped her work through the feeling of powerlessness — that memory of not being able to fight off the man who assaulted her.

D.M.: There was a lot of energy that was stuck in my shoulder. And so there was there were lots of times where I felt myself actually pushing this man away. And that was a lot of what the therapy was together is like, unfreezing the part of me that had frozen and making it feel like I had escaped it. As one of the interesting things to me about what happened is I couldn't differentiate the past from the present. But what is miraculous about it to me is that by going back into it, while, it felt like it was still happening. I was able to respond in a way where it felt like I won. Right. Like, I didn't actually win, like this man actually did assault me, but we got to the point in my therapy where it felt like I am able to push them away. I am able to use my words and speak, and I'm able to make sure that I have a different outcome.

Cristen: Was there a particular point that jumps out to you in that process where you started to feel like. Oh, I, I can I can actually get through this? Was there kind of like a turning point where the the messiness started to kind of give way to sort of seeing kind of the light at the end of it? You know.

D.M.: I yes. What happened for me is my body was shaking every single day. It happened every single day for more than three days. And I know that because I started tracking it because I was like, one day, eventually this will stop happening and I will be better. And I know exactly when it happened. One thing that I really wanted was to live in the mountains and I just moved to the mountains just like as like a discovery visit I to see, like, do I want to be here or not? And I remember laying in my bed one night and being like, my legs haven't shaken yet today. What's happening? And that is when I started to think, “I am on the very, very end of this.” And it wasn't very much longer after that, before the shaking generally subsided.

Cristen: How did it feel in that moment when you realized that your leg wasn't shaking?

D.M.: Like just this victory, and then like I'm just getting emotional with you even asking that right. Like, it is just such a celebration. Like, it's pretty amazing, I think, to make it through like more than three years of every day my body feeling like it's dying. And to make it through that and then to know that I'm OK, and I put myself back together, and I can have what I want in my life. Yeah, it was absolutely incredible.

Caroline: What did your therapist say about that turning point?

D.M.: I think she saw the turning point as a different one for her, because there was a point in my therapy where - I had been really angry at the man for a really long time, and there was a point in my therapy where I felt this moment of forgiveness, and I know that it touched her because she had a little tear that she tried for me not to see. But I think it was pretty incredible for her to have witnessed all that she did with me, to have seen all of that, and then still see a softening of the heart at the end of the journey.

Caroline: So where are you in your recovery now?

D.M.: My answer to that is that it's not 100 percent. Like on most days, I'm probably 99 percent better. Some days, some days, maybe 95 percent better. But on the whole, I know that when I get activated, when I get triggered, I know what I have to do, and I know how to get out of it. I know how to move through it. And I know that I have the skills and the resources to look after myself. And how I have heard trauma recovery described as I've heard that it is being in remission. So maybe not necessarily this is gone forever and it's erased. It's it's in remission, and you know how to manage it and you know how to move forward.

Caroline: What are some of those tactics or methods that you rely on when you do feel triggered or when you are feeling less than even 95 percent?

D.M.: To me, I have two things that are really helpful to me all of the time, and they're removing myself from the situation that I'm in and just sitting really quietly. So probably you would call it meditation. But to me, it doesn't feel that much like meditation because it's not very much of an effort to concentrate on what's happening in my body and how I'm feeling, because it's just kind of automatic and because it’s - what my body is doing is loud. Right, like it's saying “I'm really scared right now,” and then I pay attention to it and it take really good loving care of it. And then the other thing that I do is I do a lot of journaling and because things have been so hard for me for so long, I have learned a lot of self-compassion and a lot of tenderness. And I think by treating myself with all of that kindness when I'm in the difficult situation, it's giving me basically everything that I need. Right, being like there, there, baby it's ok, right. You're doing the best that you can and it's OK that you're scared or it's OK that you're sad or it's OK that you're really, really mad right now. Like, it's really helpful, I think, to just sit with the emotions and let them pass through and feel them.

Cristen: Yeah, it almost sounds like kind of a - not to use a very overused term - but it sounds like a radical form of self-care.

D.M.: Mm, yeah. I learned that on the way. And I actually learned that as soon as as soon as my ex left, like I was laying on the floor when he left, and I had this like moment where I was like, will I get better or will I have terrible life? Which do I pick? And I just remember, like, my hands were my hands were just stroking my chest and they were stroking my my arms and my face. And they were surprised that I still existed. And they were just so much like tenderness that came up in that moment where it was like, I am really invested in making sure that I'm OK. Right. Like, I don't I don't want this option B life. I don't I don't want the the shutdown closed off one where I'm too afraid to ever date again because it might be painful. Right. Like I want to try and grow and be open hearted and be capable of loving.

Caroline: And do you feel that you are there in your journey, like have you have you come back to the dating and romance journey at all?

D.M.: Yeah, yeah, so I have an - I have a partner now, we've been together for a year and. I had to, what I had to do in order to be able to date again, is I had to figure out boundaries and I had to figure out what exactly do I want and not want, and to be very, very clear on that right from the beginning. And I would say that I'm really good at being recovered when I'm single, because then I'm only managing my own self and my own emotions, and I go wherever I want to do whatever I want. So it's a lot easier to be a good steward of myself that way. And I was single for a lot of my recovery. And I think that was - I think that was necessary. I think that for myself. I just really needed to have a lot of space and just pay attention to what my own needs were while I was getting better. But now I'm able to date again and be really clear about what I want and be in a good, healthy and respectful relationship. And then there is, of course, there are some conversations about boundaries and safety. I have things come up still like what I'm talking about being in remission and being mostly better. I still have little flares come up sometimes where I am completely safe and my my physical self is completely safe. But there's a part of me on the inside that is afraid and doesn't feel safe. And so it's a matter of talking about that, talking through that and having a partner who understands that and is really gentle and gracious about it, which which is how my partner is.

Caroline: Before you were with your current partner, how did you approach coming back to dating, coming back to like a dating life, a romantic life, a sexual life.

D.M.: I got really clear on what I wanted and what I didn't want, and I made like a very specific list. This is what I - this is what I want in someone. And so I was doing online dating and I actually said, like, here is exactly what I want. Right. And like, I was looking for my person. I was looking for my partner. And to me, it's not very fun to, like, go out and have, like, a casual dating situation because it's stressful to me and because the sex part is scary, especially in the beginning. And the intimacy part is - right? Like, I need to be safe. And it's very scary when I don't feel like I am and when I don't have that control and when I don't know someone well enough to know that I'm in - like that I'm in good care. And so there were like there were some bumps along the way. But I went but what I did is I was very clear from the beginning before even going out with anyone, here's what I want and what I don't want. And you need to be respectful of this.

Cristen: So we also interviewed another - yesterday, we actually spoke with another unladylike listener who is not nearly as far along in the healing process, she's about two years, I think, into therapy, and one of the questions that she raised in her email to us, I wanted to - want to - I want to ask you. So she wrote, “How do I rebuild my self when that idea of who I was and am has been seemingly so irrevocably damaged?”

D.M.: Hm. I think one thing that I learned in my journey is that I got to be better and I got to choose my future and I got to choose who I wanted to be and I got to choose the skillset I wanted to have. I got to become someone who was vulnerable, someone who had open hearted conversations with everyone, someone who set boundaries and someone who took it, like impeccably good care of herself and. I got to rebuild my life and give myself everything. It sounds like this person already had a lot and and had a lot taken away from her and It's terrible that these things happen that come and destroy us. But what amazes me, and what gives me hope is how resilient we are, right? It sucks that we have to be, but we get to put ourselves back together and we got to go forward and have amazing lives. And I would say as a result of what I've gone through, that I have been able to become a more empathetic, kinder and better person than I was before and that I would have been had this not happened to me.

Caroline: Do you have any parting advice for other survivors?

D.M.: I would say to survivors, just be so very kind to yourself. That is the most important thing and maybe the only thing that matters is just be very, very, very kind. And it wasn't your fault. And you are allowed to have the pain that you have and you're allowed for it to take as long as it takes for you to get better and you get to build a beautiful new life and. It's probably going to be painful, it's probably going to be really hard, but I promise that it's better on the other end.

Cristen: You can find DM’s memoir Wide Open at dmditson.ca. And if you want more expert advice from Dr. Judy Ho check out her podcast SuperCharged Life and follow her on Instagram @drjudyho

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: We’re taking next week off, but we’ll be back on June 15th with another installment of Ask Unladylike. Comedian Negin Farsad is going to help us make friends as adults!

Negin Farsad: I used to be like walking into any situation being like, well, everyone would rather be friends with anyone else in this room with me. You know what I mean? I just had that kind of ridiculous high school girl like insecurity for so many years until I realized like, oh, like it's not that I'm the most garbage person in a room. It's that we're all garbage people in the room. Like, I am no better or worse a friend possibility than anyone else.

Cristen: Negin is a total delight and you don’t want to miss that Ask Unladylike episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. I know I won’t because I need to make some friends gosh darnit! Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get Unladylike.