Transcript | Ep. 117: How to Leave Your Abuser

[CLIP - Today Show]
Anchor: This was head spinning. This morning the Manhattan DA’s office confirms it’s opened an investigation into the allegations against New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman. Last night, the New Yorker published stories from four women saying he slapped, demeaned, choked and threatened them. Less than two hours later, the Governor of New York was calling on Eric Schneiderman to resign. And a short time later, he did just that.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Hey y’all, it's Cristen.

Caroline: And Caroline.

Cristen: This episode, we'll be discussing intimate partner violence and abuse. So heads up if you'd prefer to sit this one out. We’re also passing the mic to Unladylike senior producer, Nora Ritchie. Nora is gonna be our guide through today’s story.

Caroline: Hey Nora!

Nora: Hi Cristen and Caroline

Cristen: So Nora, tell us about the news clip we just heard at the top of the show.

Nora: Yeah, so that was from the Today Show in May of 2018. And what happened it then-New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman had just resigned from office after accusations surfaced that he had abused a number of women he'd dated.

Caroline: Yeah I remember when this news broke. It was a huge deal because Schneiderman had sued Harvey Weinstein and his company, right? Like, wasn’t he basically considered a hero in the #MeToo movement up until that point?

Nora: Oh definitely. Schneiderman went after Weinstein. He identified as this big feminist. And he was super powerful. As the attorney general of New York, he was the boss of the state’s entire legal system. But, today’s story isn’t really about Schneiderman. It’s about Tanya Selvaratnam. Tanya is a writer and an Emmy-nominated producer. She’s an advocate for the arts and social justice. She was also the catalyst for bringing Schneiderman down.

Cristen: Oh wow. Tell us more about Tanya

Nora: Yeah so Tanya dated Schneiderman for about a year back in 2016 and 2017. Their relationship started as a kind of fairytale. You know, Eric was really charming and sweet at first, but ultimately he became extremely controlling and abusive. Tanya got out, and in 2018, she and three other women Schneiderman had abused came forward and shared their experiences with the New Yorker. It was this huge MeToo story, and it lit a political firestorm. Now, Tanya has written a book all about her relationship with Scheneiderman and how she extricated herself from that situation. Her book titled Assume Nothing: A Story of Intimate Violence was actually inspired by his manipulative tactics.

Tanya: He would say, “assume nothing.” And he would say, “trust no one.” They were his mantras. It was also his way of making me not trust others and not trust myself. So “assume nothing” very quickly came to me as the title of my book. It's a way to reframe the language that he used against me and it's also to show how you can't assume about what people are experiencing. I found that in writing the book and in the reaction since the book has come out, an abuser is of all stripes and a victim looks like all of us, and that even fierce women get abused.

Nora: Intimate partner violence — like what Tanya experienced — is super common, and it can take a lot of different forms. It can look like physical and sexual violence and stalking. It can also look like coercive control, which involves things like financial withholding and emotional manipulation.

Caroline: Intimate partner abuse is really common. So what drew you to Tanya specifically?

Nora: The reason I wanted to talk to Tanya about it is the power dynamics she had to navigate. Exiting abusive relationships can be hard for anyone. But what happens when your abuser is also the top cop? And on top of that, she went public about it. So the risks Tanya took were truly incredible. And I think Tanya’s story can also help listeners identify if they are in an abusive relationship AND how to safely leave.

Cristen: Well we will let you take it from here, Nora

[Stinger]

Nora: Tanya first met Eric Schneiderman at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. She wasn’t even planning to go that night, but a friend who worked in Hillary Clinton’s campaign had an extra pass. Tanya thought, “Why not?” While she was watching the convention, she noticed a guy looking at her. That guy was Eric Schneiderman. Tanya and Schneiderman struck up a chatty flirtation. She was immediately drawn to him.

Tanya: He was kind, he was adoring, he was very flirtatious and romantic with me at first. Also, I was attracted to his interest in progressive causes, he was worshiped as a liberal hero, he was worshiped by feminists, he was surrounded by many prominent feminists. He was also interested in meditation and spirituality, which I am very interested in. And he talked about meditation, which I thought was unusual for a politician, and he surrounded himself with prominent meditators as well.

Nora: Here's past Unladylike guest Samantha Bee praising Schneiderman on her late night show Full Frontal back in 2017.

[CLIP - Full Frontal with Samantha Bee]
Samantha Bee: But there is hope on the horizon. A hero who stood up to democracy’s nemesis before. Look up in the sky. It’s bird, it’s a plane. It’s —
Eric Schneiderman: I’m Eric Schneiderman, and I’m the attorney general of the state of New York, the lawyer for the state of new york and for the people of the state of New York

Nora: Yeahh, Bee later walked that back. ... After Tanya and Schneiderman met, they started talking on the phone every night.

Tanya: And then he asked me to go away with him for a weekend, and that's when the sexual relationship started and immediately after that weekend, he asked me to come and stay with him at his place, and I basically was living with him.

Nora: Initially, Schneiderman was really sweet and tender. He seemed like he wanted to be a good boyfriend, and a lot of Tanya’s friends thought he was a catch.

Tanya: But as the weeks continued to go by, then the darkness started to seep in and the things that he had praised me for, he started to criticize me for. An example is, you know, he would when I was working in the apartment, he would act as if I was taking up too much space and he was confining me to smaller and smaller spaces within the apartment. When I would wash my clothes and hang them to dry, he would say that it looked like Chinatown as if that were disgusting. When he looked at my scars, which in the early days of the relationship, he would look at them as if they were a badge of courage, as if I had overcome adversity.

Nora: Can you explain the scars?

Tanya: I have scars that run down the length of my torso from surgery for cancer that was diagnosed in 2012, and the way it was diagnosed was I was in the process of beginning fertility treatments after having three miscarriages. But instead of starting the fertility treatments, the doctors discovered a growth that then ended up being diagnosed as just a gastrointestinal stromal tumor. And then they found another tumor near my heart that was a thymoma. So I have scars that run down my torso. As the darkness started to seep in, he told me to get plastic surgery to remove them and he had a plastic surgeon who would do it for me. He also wanted me to get a boob job. I knew that I was not going to do either. The other way that he was trying to break me down is he kept talking about wanting me to find him young girls for him to have a three-way with. And I knew that I wasn't going to do that either. But he made me feel like I was less than.

Nora: Then Schneiderman’s behavior escalated. He turned violent in the bedroom. It was not consensual.

Tanya: It was at night, it was dark. I was naked. I was in a vulnerable position. There were times that I told him to stop. There were times I told him it hurt. There were times I jumped out of bed.

Nora: During sex, Schneiderman slapped Tanya in the face. Sometimes he wouldn't stop until Tanya agreed to call him “Master” or “Daddy.” Schneiderman told Tanya he fantasized about her being his slave, his “brown girl.” A few times he tried to choke Tanya.

Tanya: People wonder why I stayed. He knew that he had problems, he would talk about being depressed, his drinking escalated after the election in 2016 as the pressures on him escalated and people were looking to him as if he was the second coming, that he was going to deliver them from the clutches of a dangerous president. What they didn't realize is that this progressive savior was abusing me at home. And with the dark times, there were also times of hope when he would be kind and supportive and remind me of that person that I first met, and when I was hopeful that he would get help and I had him meet talk to a therapist, but then after 15 minutes, he said he was fine. And he was often going to meditation retreats, saying that he was going to work on himself. And I, being a sensitive person, wanted to take care of him, wanted to help him, and held on to the possibility that he might revert to the person I first met. But in fact, it was just a never ending spiral.

Nora: By this point, Schneiderman was treating Tanya like a yoyo, pushing her away and pulling her back. One minute he couldn’t be without her and then the next he wanted her out of his face. Tanya’s friends also started noticing that something was not quite right. Tanya didn’t seem like herself. Then, one of her best friends called her up.

Tanya: I remember that call vividly and she started asking questions, and I was at a moment where I was both ready to open up and also just in the moment, responding to the fact that I was talking with someone who's like my sister and whom I would not hide from. And we talked we started talking about his drinking, his controlling behavior. And then she asked, does he hit you? And I wasn't going to lie to her. And she, being wise and knowing that she didn't have the expertise to guide me from that point, asked if I would be willing to speak with a domestic violence expert, and I spoke with the expert a few days later. We actually texted the next day after I had that phone call with my friend, and it was that domestic violence expert who really guided me and continues to guide me out of the relationship safely by having a soft exit without, as she put it, poking the bear, without letting him know what I was thinking.

Nora: That expert, a woman named Jennifer Friedman, advised Tanya to avoid Schneiderman. Never be alone with him. Never take his calls. Just drift.

Tanya: And so I did that for a few weeks. There was a 24-hour period when I was on a shoot in Los Angeles where he tried calling me three times within 24 hours, growing more agitated with each call because I wasn't responding to his phone calls. He thought that we were supposed to have dinner that week. It was a very odd outreach from him. And I just responded with a simple email saying, there's no dinner, I'm traveling. And every time that he would reach out to me, I would reach out to Jennifer Friedman, and I would ask her, how should I respond? What should I do? And she instructed me really to phrase my emails carefully, to make it clear that I wanted him not to contact me and to respect my wishes because she said phrasing it in that way would make it legally actionable if he did try to contact me.

Nora: Jennifer helped Tanya prepare for three possible scenarios for the relationship’s end. One would be that Schneiderman would break up with Tanya. That would give him a sense of agency over the situation. Another would be that he’d try to engage in conversation with Tanya and keep things going. And the third would be that Tanya would break up with him.

Tanya: When Eric Schneiderman and I did talk, he said, “It seems like you've been avoiding me.” I said, “Yes, I need time.” And he said, “Well, maybe we should go our separate ways.” And I said, “I think that would be for the best.” And he said, “Really?” And then he tried to make small talk - I mean, it was very odd, it was very odd conversation. But I had already prepared my responses with the guidance of of Friedman.

Nora: Four days after they ended things, the Harvey Weinstein story broke in the New York Times.

Tanya: So then I just felt these waves crashing around me. I just knew that I would get swept up in this movement in a way that I couldn't control and that I had to prepare myself as much as possible for my physical safety and also my emotional well-being.

Nora: Tanya got an email from Schneiderman. “I want to continue to support your good work," he wrote. "These are not normal times.”

Tanya: And I started shaking. I was in the office, I was working at Glamour magazine on Glamour Women of the Year at that time, so I was at One World Trade Center. It felt like a safe cocoon to be able to go to work every day. But I remember sitting at my desk and just starting to shake.

Nora: Tanya forwarded the email to Jennifer Friedman, the domestic violence expert.

Tanya: And she said, “He's not even able to hide his motives.” He was gauging my temperature. Because the MeToo movement was taking off. And he had positioned himself as an ally of women and would later position himself as an ally of the MeToo movement and many in the MeToo movement bought it, you know, were tweeting support for him, saying what a hero he was. And I was watching all this unfold while my story was unfolding in real time. And that was overwhelming.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, Tanya discovers she wasn’t the only ex girlfriend that Schneiderman abused. And then, she comes forward to the New Yorker.

Caroline: Stick around, y’all.

[Stinger]

Tanya: I wrote the book to make peace and kindness more exciting than violence. And violence is passed down from generation to generation. It's going to take a long time for us to unpack and unravel that generational violence. But I am hopeful that we can do it.

Cristen: We’re back with Unladylike senior producer, Nora Ritchie, and her interview with Tanya Selvaratnam.

Nora: So, when we left off, Tanya was carefully cutting ties with Eric Schneiderman. That also forced her to come to terms with the intimate partner violence Tanya's father inflicted on her mother when Tanya was a kid.

Tanya: I can't believe what I witnessed as a child in terms of the horrific domestic violence in the home. And also how the whole family was made to feel like we couldn't talk about it. It was hidden behind the veil. We kept up appearances when we went outside, but it scarred me in ways that I've been able to excavate only recently, after having experienced violence in a relationship myself. I always thought of myself as the strong one. I would stand up to my father. From the time I was a child, I would tell him to stop. I would stand between him and my mother because I knew that he was not going to hit me. He never, ever hit me. He only hit my mother and. In many ways, he was wonderful to me, so it was this very bifurcated existence with a man who was generous and thoughtful with me and with others, but was a terror to my mother, and I'm just sorry that she didn't get the support and resources she needed to get out of it, that she was pressured to stay with him because divorce was still taboo, especially in the South Asian community. And she didn't know where she would go.

Nora: Yeah, that bifurcated descriptor also reminds me of Eric Schneiderman. Like he has this public persona that is so feminist. He famously filed a lawsuit against Harvey Weinstein, pursued a fraud lawsuit against Trump, etc. But then in private, he was so different. What do you make of that?

Tanya: I think many abusers, if not all of them, are bifurcated individuals. There are their public-facing pronouncements and actions and their private-facing behavior. I also feel that when the abuser is a powerful person, I think part of what attracts them to become powerful is so that they can get away with abusive behavior. I also think that power corrupts and makes them feel like they can act in an abusive way. It's a way of having power over people. It's what they do when they think no one was looking and no one will tell on them. In my situation, as horrible as it was that I got entangled in an abusive relationship, he really did mess with the wrong person. Because I'm a storyteller and also I'm a documentary filmmaker. And I have been an advocate for women and children for my entire career.

Nora: About a month after parting ways with Schneiderman, Tanya told her story to her friend Jennifer Gonnerman, who is an investigative reporter for the New Yorker. Within 24 hours, Jennifer had identified a previous girlfriend of Schneiderman’s who’d had a similar experience.

Tanya: And so I thought if there was her and me, then there had to be others.

Nora: This marked a turning point for Tanya. She felt like she had no choice but to come forward with her story — even though it felt like a lose-lose situation.

Tanya: What I mean by that, if I didn't come forward, he would abuse other women and I would just carry this weight within me. And if I came forward, I would potentially sacrifice my personal safety, if the story didn't land well and he came after me, he was the top law enforcement officer in in the state. I could lose potentially with regard to my career and reputation. But I knew that coming forward was the right thing to do. For me, it was very much conscience more than courage. I had to do it to protect other women and also to open up a dialogue about intimate violence, especially knowing so many friends of mine that had it.

Nora: Initially, Tanya explored her legal options to hold Schneiderman accountable. She considered filing an ethics complaint or civil claim. But, because of Schneiderman’s position of power … all roads would lead to him.

Tanya: With the ethics complaint, It was made very clear to me, to my surprise, that if I filed one, he would be immediately tipped off. I mean, that just shows how kind of intertwined everything was around me, it was like I was stuck in this web. And I decided not to file a civil claim because it was made clear to me that it would probably involve some kind of settlement and some kind of agreement. And for me, I didn't want the money. And I also felt, well, the money is just going to come from his donors, which just felt wrong to me, from his campaign fund.

Nora: Tanya’s right. In New York State, it is totally legal for someone like Schneiderman to use political campaign funds to pay for legal fees.

Tanya: So those were the the decisions that I went through as far as legal pathways and then deciding that the court of public opinion was going to be my best recourse.

Nora: A friend of Tanya’s introduced her to David Remnick, the editor of the New Yorker. Tanya had written a short narrative about her experience and was weighing how to proceed. David was eager to share her story, but made it clear that they’d need to identify more women so that they could show a clear pattern. So he assigned investigative reporters Jane Mayer and Ronan Farrow to start digging.

Tanya: Within a few weeks, Jane Mayer had spoken with previous girlfriends and found that they, too, had had similar experiences. But it was very hard to get people on the record. I'm grateful that there was one who spoke on the record, but. I really have to fight against my disappointment that there were people who could have warned me. I know they could have warned me about his treatment of women so that I didn't have these memories. No one should have these memories. They are horrible. They eat at your self-worth, your self-perception. I'm just very grateful that I have incredible friends and colleagues who support me and keep me looking up.

Nora: Now before the article came out you had a conversation with your mother, and she didn’t want you to come forward. Why do you think that was?

Tanya: It was important for me to prepare the people who were closest to me, so my mother, my brother, my sister-in-law, that the story might come out. And I called my mother saying, you know, I have something that's difficult to talk about, but I want you to know, and I told her that there might be a story that comes out. And it was one of the more honest conversations we've ever had because she herself had experienced horrific domestic violence. But she really didn't want me to come forward. She's like, why do you have to do it? Others can do it. I was like, I don't think others will. And. She said she didn't want the publicity. And it made me sad, but I felt there was nothing I could do.

Nora: On May 7, 2018, the New Yorker article came out. Immediately, New York State Gov. Andrew Cuomo called on Schneiderman to resign. And resign he did — just two hours later. Gov. Cuomo later assigned a special prosecutor to investigate possible criminal charges against Schneiderman, but the case got dropped. To fight that potential case, Schneiderman used nearly $340,000 in political campaign funds to pay for legal fees. As for Tanya, after the story came out, she went to Mexico and laid low for a bit. And eventually in June, she went back to work.

Tanya: I remember I was at a shoot at the Museum of Modern Art, and it was my first time being out in public. And a woman who's the head of another museum. I was alone, I was just kind of looking at the crowd, and she came up to me and she held my hand and she said, “There's a lot of love for you in this room. We owe you, thank you,” and that just still makes me want to cry because it meant so much to just have somebody comfort me in that moment when I was out in public for the first time.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, Tanya digs deeper with Nora about what we often miss when we talk about consent

Caroline: Stick around

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Unladylike producer Nora Ritchie and Tanya Selvaratnam.

Nora: I want to talk about just a couple - a few sort of bigger picture thoughts or questions about some of what we've been talking about and specifically when it comes to consent. I think so often, you know, it's still very much a black-and-white sort of like yes-or-no framing of what consent is. What do you think we're missing when it comes to talking about consent in intimate relationships?

Tanya: Well, you can't physically harm somebody in a sexual context without asking for their consent. The aim of the book is to encourage healthy relationships and mutual pleasure. It's not to stifle pleasure. And I recognize that pleasure means different things for different people. And there are some for whom physical violence is something that they enjoy in the bedroom. But even in those physically violent relationships or BDSM, consent is a crucial component. And in my situation, consent was never requested or given. And in fact, there were many articles that came out after the New Yorker story broke that discussed this very issue. The BDSM community was outraged by the story because it - because it was clear that Eric Schneiderman did not obtain consent before choking, slapping or spitting at his girlfriends. And he tried to make it seem like it was consensual. I consented to the relationship; I did not consent to the violence.

Nora: What do you mean when you say he made it seem consensual?

Tanya: He made a statement when The New Yorker went to him for comment before the story ran. And he talked about how in the context of consensual relationships, he engaged in such behaviors to make it seem like the girlfriends were all on board with his behavior. He would make it seem like I was boring, that I was not adventurous enough, that I was not experimental enough. And I would find out from meeting with two previous girlfriends of his who reached out to me that he made them feel the same way as well. And in one previous girlfriend’s situation, she had been physically harmed as a child by a parent, and so it was very triggering for her to have Eric Schneiderman slap her hard on the face out of nowhere. And she also jumped out of bed and didn't want to go back to him, but then he did - it's the classic narcissistic abuser. He then apologizes, feel sorry, wants to change. He's going to get help, exhibits you know adoring behavior, and you think, oh, you know, it's that - so that's the gaslighting, it's the push and pull, it's the breaking you down while also sometimes lifting you up. You begin to lose sight of who you are.

Nora: Yeah. This is a big question, but I'm curious to hear your answer. Why do you think men abuse?

Tanya: There's a direct line between patriarchy and misogyny, and the patriarchy conditions us to normalize violence and abuse from the time that we're born. In our homes, in our schools, in our workplaces and in our intimate relationships. We're conditioned to think that if a boy teases us, he likes us. Also, there is an inherent problem with the lack of education about healthy relationships. You know, we're taught in sex education how to prevent pregnancies and STDs. We're not taught how to have healthy relationships. And I feel that that education needs to begin in elementary school about how to be kind to each other.

Nora: Do you have thoughts about, are abusers sort of capable of reform and should we put efforts towards that?

Tanya: Absolutely, abusers are capable of reforming their behaviors and transforming into healthy men, but that takes a lot of hard work, acknowledging the harm and examining themselves and most abusers are not willing to do any of that, but there are amazing programs that do violence prevention and healthy manhood training, organizations like A Call to Men, organizations like The One Love Foundation. So I, I feel that we need to be looking to organizations such as those and making those programs spread on a national and also international level. Because it should be part of our basic education.

Nora: So the Weinstein article in The New York Times, of course, came out in 2017 and that of, you know, that's been a worldwide ripple effect in so in so many ways. I'm curious, what do you think is sort of the next wave, or where where's the MeToo movement heading?

Tanya: I feel that the next wave of MeToo, has three parts. One is exposing intimate violence and committed relationships. Another is calling out the enablers. Because abusers don't get away with it without their enablers, and the enablers are a key part of the ecosystem that perpetuates a violent and abusive behavior. The third part is inspiring bystanders to be up standers. And what I mean by that, if you suspect that your friend and loved one might be in an abusive relationship, reach out to them, ask them questions. You never know when you might ask a question that elicits an answer or a cry for help, and have at your disposal resources that you can provide to your friend so that they can get out.

Nora: So last question, for people who may have experienced this kind of relationship or think they might be in this kind of relationship. Do you have any helpful advice or resources you can share with our listeners?

Tanya: Write down every bit of pain you've experienced. And, you know, document what you're going through. Tell someone you trust and someone you trust not to tell anyone else what you're going through. Also, as I found in my case, when you tell someone you trust that person might be able to help you, that person could be your lifeline. Another piece of advice is get professional help, and there are many organizations that can help. Know that you are not alone and you're not crazy. There are millions and millions and millions of us who are victims, survivors and hopefully thrivers. And another piece of advice is, you are the most important part of this equation, don't focus on your abuser. Focus on yourself.

Caroline: Well, hey, Nora, thank you so much for sharing that story.

Cristen: Yes, thank you.

Nora: Yeah, of course. And actually, I have an update since speaking with Tanya.

Cristen: Oh, OK. Do tell. Yeah.

Nora: So in late April, after an investigation into Schneiderman's conduct for the first judicial department in New York, the court actually suspended his law license for a year and then get this in the court filing, he admitted to the allegations against him. So some justice has come.

Cristen: Wow. Well, Caroline and I also wanted to make sure that we let listeners know that whether you have experienced intimate partner violence or are looking to support someone who is there are tons of organizations you can turn to for help and resources. Now, if you are in immediate need, you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one 800-799-7233. And we'll also be including a list of organizations in the source post for this episode over at Unladylike.co

Nora: Yeah, and I'd also mention if people want to learn more about some of these topics to check out our Episode 95, How to do #MeToo Without Prisons with guest Alissa Ackerman. She is an expert on sex crimes. And I thought that was a really fascinating and empowering conversation. So folks should go check that out.

Caroline: Yeah, and I think that, Nora, your conversation with Tanya was just invaluable for highlighting the fact that intimate partner violence is not just physical, it's not just something that leaves bruises. It also does involve coercive control and manipulation. And it breaks my heart to hear, Tanya, in your conversation say, you know, people ask, why didn't I leave? And so I think that this conversation goes a long way to helping us all understand that sometimes it's just not as simple as just leave.

Nora: Absolutely.

Cristen: And this is also not the end of the unladylike conversation, because on next week's episode, we aren't talking to Tanya, but we are going to be talking about something that rarely gets brought up, which is what happens after you experience sexual trauma and what can healing look like. So we hope that you all will also tune into that, because it's going to be a very powerful episode as well.

Caroline: And thank you so much again, Nora, for coming out from behind Pro Tools to talk with us.

Nora: Of course, it was really nice being on mic with all of you.

Cristen: You can find Tanya on Twitter at @tanyaauthor or check out her website tanyaturnsup.com.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week …

D.M.: I had this like moment where I was like, will I get better or will I have terrible life? Which do I pick? And I just remember, like, my hands were my hands were just stroking my chest and they were stroking my my arms and my face. And they were surprised that I still existed. And they were just so much like tenderness that came up in that moment where it was like, I am really invested in making sure that I'm OK. Right. Like, I don't I don't want this option B life. I don't I don't want the the shutdown closed off one where I'm too afraid to ever date again because it might be painful. Right. Like I want to try and grow and be open hearted and be capable of loving

Cristen: We’re focusing on something that is rarely talked about — What happens AFTER you’ve experienced sexual trauma. We’ll talk to two Unladylike listeners about the ripple effects of abuse, PTSD and how to move forward in recovery. Plus, we’ll talk to a clinical psychologist about when it’s time to go to treatment and how to disclose your trauma.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss this episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get Unladylike.