Transcript | Ep. 108: We Are Anxious White Feminists
Cristen: I do circle around in my head of like, Cristen like you're a gatekeeper, you're inviting people on, like this is your platform. And so is that inherently problematic? And I, probably to some extent, yes. The answer is yes.
Caroline: I mean, I think that white womanhood, white feminism, whiteness is all very problematic, and we we do our best to make sure that it stays the least amount of problematic as possible
[Theme music]
Caroline: Cristen, we did it — we made it to the end of 2020
Cristen: I know, wow. What an accomplishment? I mean for you and me, sure, but really for everyone. Everyone listening. We did it.
Caroline: Truly. Truly. And for this episode, we’re doing something we’ve never done before on the show. We’re pulling back the curtain a bit and interviewing each other. It’s kinda like Inside the Actor’s Studio, and both of us are James Lipton.
Cristen: Yes, and I am wearing a goatee right now for the occasion
Caroline: Yeah I’m wearing the glasses and the turtleneck.
Cristen: But seriously, so, we were kicking around ideas of how to close out such an intense year, and it just felt appropriate to get a little more personal than usual. Like, Caroline, we’re often presenting other people’s stories on the podcast, and I can feel within myself sometimes that it just kinda gives me a little bit of hiding space, you know, in a way of not having to be as vulnerable as our guests are. And partly selfishly, I wanted to just take a beat specifically at this moment, in these unprecedented times, to check in and see how we’re both feeling as human people, as feminists, as white women, and as Unladylike.
Caroline: Yeah, and I love the idea. I mean, this conversation really gave us a chance to take stock of SO much. Today, y’all are going to hear us grappling with our own insecurities, with listener criticism, the Karens in our midst — and our place in all of it.
Cristen: So with that, please welcome to the stage today’s two guests … I can’t believe we booked them, Caroline, by the way … they were pretty hard to wrangle
[STINGER]
Caroline: Cristen Conger is with me. She is my long-term committed work wife. She is a talented, funny lady podcaster creative extraordinaire who is working really hard to make up for lost time in terms of pop culture. She has a literary, hilarious brain. And I have admired her ever since we worked at the college newspaper together many, many moons ago.
Cristen: So I am sitting here with Caroline Ervin. She is my committed work wife, we are in a pretty monogamous work wifery relationship. And Caroline is one of those amazing people who rarely meets a stranger and is so genuine and authentic. And I know, Caroline, as an editor, you're probably saying to yourself right now, pick one of those very similar synonyms, but I won't. I'm going to use both of them. And I mean, I wouldn't be here without her.
Caroline: Damn, thank you.
Cristen: Thank you.
[Stinger]
Cristen: I'm going to ask you the very loaded question that we've been asking our unladylike guest these past couple of seasons, and that is. How are you?
Caroline: I don't know how I'm doing. I have a lot of concerns about myself and my life and my finances and my health and my parent's health. But as I was telling someone yesterday who asked, I also know that I have it better than many, many other people, and that's not you know, I'm not like dismissing, you know, my my feelings matter, too, but like. The long answer is like. Better than some. How are you?
Cristen: Oh, I got a quick, quick follow up, though, before you get to me. How would you like to be doing?
Caroline: Oh, God. Well, how I would like to be doing would would be to feel a little more in control, but also. if you continue to follow my thinking and feeling path down. I quickly run into the brick wall of like, well, who am I to ask to do any better when everything is such a shit show and like I am a privileged white woman? Like who are you to ask to do any better? But also I can I can assure you that that is something that I am working on in therapy is a coming to terms with the fact that I do deserve to be happy and not a wreck, so I'm working on that. But anyway.
Cristen: That's real.
Caroline: That's real. It is real and it's messy. But Cristen Conger, how are you?
Cristen: Today, I am good. And what does good mean, good means that. I'm. I'm not in an anxiety spiral. I'm feeling very grateful today. And it's nice to be in a mindset of gratitude. And For me, it's the biggest challenge is maintaining perspective, because there are a thousand things that I'm not doing that I wish I was doing. And there are a thousand ways that I feel like I am not living up enough to the the politics and the ideals that we espouse on Unladylike. And that's why I say that I'm doing well today, because I'm not in one of those spirals and it really is mental health, you know, such a day to day and sometimes like minute to minute thing. I was in a spiral last night and was very grateful just to wake up this morning feeling clear. So that's that's how I am. That's a long answer to a question, but also how do you answer that question this year without either just like *hahha* or like a thesis like I just delivered?
Caroline: Because how the fuck do you answer that question there's just a lot of fucking complicated shit that is making it impossible to just say fine. And I think that that's OK, too. Like, one of the things that I've been thinking about, Cristen, is what 2020 has stripped away from us, and I don't mean just in terms of material things, but what has 2020 like stripped away and what has it added? And I'm curious if you feel like this year has stripped away any any nonsense, any useless things that maybe you were carrying around?
Cristen: Maybe the thing that. That I've at least tried to strip away this past year is a deeper sense of and fear of uselessness. Of like re-finding my voice and my value and my purpose, and I'm still like, I've still got a long way to go, but I've been I don't know, I have been grateful for the the space that lockdown has provided to to just kind of keep doing some deep internal work.
Caroline: Yeah, that's real. And I mean, when you and I had a similar conversation to this one when our book came out two years ago.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: You know, you and I were really real about the anxiety that it caused. We both talked about going from like loving the written word to being almost afraid to write, afraid to get on social media and engage. I’m curious, do you feel that that sense of uselessness, or trying to find your voice, is at all connected with that time?
Cristen: Oh, absolutely. I. So for one thing, like writing a book is the one, kind of, dream I ever allowed myself to have as a kid. And so having the opportunity to do that was thrilling, but also terrifying because once I was doing the thing that I was that my life had supposedly been leading up to and the thing that, like I the one thing that allowed myself to believe about myself that like I could do. The stakes going into it became like so unnecessarily high for me, just like on on a personal level and I've always been terrified of failure and creative failure, but also like any time you read some kind of, like, success manual from creative's, it's like you got to fail. You have to fail. Like that is the way the only way that you get better at things is if you allow yourself to fail. And I'm so risk averse because I'm terrified to do that. But what I never grasped when I heard about failure in the abstract was the type of failure that I experienced in writing our book was not like. Obviously, like we made the final product and people seem happy with it, and that's great, but I felt the most intense sense of failure in myself of like I am writing checks that I can't cash, I am all talk no walk like I can't make a deadline, I can't be reliable. I have shut out like my entire social life to make more room for this book. And yet I'm sitting here in front of, like a blinking cursor, like every trope in a movie about writing. It and I wasn't in therapy. And that's a really bad recipe. Caroline, I learned the hard way. That's a recipe for major depression. Wow, I didn't mean to take us to a place of major depression, but here we are.
Caroline: Here we are now. No I mean, it makes sense. We're talking about the pandemic and feeling useless. It tracks.
Cristen: And I will just say, I will just say, I'm not I'm not in a place of major depression anymore. But am I engaged with the world, in a way, with the kind of ease that I feel like I used to have? No. But I feel I feel like I'm making progress, and the only way that I know how to do that is to just try to bite it off, like bit by bit.
Caroline: Cristen, I love that advice. Why is it so hard to follow it?? Another question for therapy, I guess!
Cristen: There’s always another question for therapy. We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, we take some criticism from listeners and dig into our own discomfort with our whiteness.
Caroline: Stick around.
[Stinger]
Caroline: We’re back, and Cristen, something you and I have talked about a lot off the pod is the responsibility of having a platform like we do in a time when news is happening SO fast.
Cristen: Totally. That reminds me of Blackout Tuesday in June, when everyone from the biggest brand to your next door neighbor was rushing to post black squares in solidarity with BLM. We joined in — and not just with a black square, we used our space to shoutout Black podcasters, writers and creators — but we still fumbled. We used the #blacklivesmatter hashtag, which completely buried all the actual helpful BLM posts on social. That rush to be part of a conversation can get ... messy.
Caroline: Yeah, messy, you and I are always learning, and I will say I think that there’s some pressure that comes along with that, of feeling like we have to get it right. And I know that for me, I don’t mind engaging from my personal social media accounts, but it’s hard for me to speak up as Unladylike.
Cristen: Why do you think that is?
Caroline: I think it's connected it's connected with the feeling that we mentioned of like, well, who are you? You know, who are you to try to speak up and lead a conversation? And it's like, well, I you know, I am a professional who's been doing this for a decade and. And I've never been afraid of speaking up or stating my opinion, but then when it goes from being like, well, that's Caroline shooting from the hip, versus that is the unladylike brand starting a conversation, you know? And it's like, oh, Lord. Then it becomes harder
Cristen: Well, I wonder where for both of us this is coming from, like obviously like I, I have I've been digging through like a lot of there's a lot of just like personal baggage for me attached to that anxiety that developed of like not good enough, like unworthy who wants to hear it. And it's interesting to hear a similar kind of sentiment from you, because as you were talking, I was like, you know, it's not like anyone ever told us to shut the fuck up.
Caroline: Yeah
Cristen: But you know what I mean? I don't know. Do you have any sense of like what, what that's about?
Caroline: On the one hand, it shows an awareness that, like there are other people out there doing the work leading these conversations and not wanting to step on toes and sound ignorant, ignorant or foolish or, you know, offensive even. Cristen, you and I don't even have the type of audience that would burn us at the stake. You and I have always had a really great community around us of listeners who, if we do fuck up, we will hear about it.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: But generally, it's in a very loving calling in sort of way. And I don't know, maybe I maybe I fear offending, maybe I have I fear sounding stupid. Maybe I fear some, like imaginary pitchforks and torches.
Cristen: I so relate to the pitchfork fear, one example of a listener calling us in that comes to mind is our episode How to Fall In Love with Herpes. That whole episode was inspired by a listener named Kat who called me in over specifically an STD joke I made. So this was at the very end of an early episode we did on bikes and street harassment. And I made an offhand joke that one way you can deal with being catcalled when you’re bike riding is tell the person you have a STD. And Kat emailed us and was basically like hey, i love ya’ll but that stupid joke bummed me the fuck out because I live with herpes and the worst side effect of it is the stigma. So we invited her on the show, and we STILL hear from listeners about how healing that episode was for them. And that's just one instance yknow? Like I just feel so fortunate that we have listeners who are willing to teach US, yknow?
Caroline: Oh, absolutely. I mean, if the show didn't exist, if you and I had never podcasted together, hopefully I would be open to critique, but girl, I don't think I would be as open, in general, as I am, and I think that that's also what helps in a situation when you're going into a conversation with a guest where you might be corrected or you might be criticized or you might, you know, feel the heat a little bit as as an interviewer, where normally you're protected, right, because you're asking the questions.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: But I think that, like. You and I are generally so open to learning and to getting those critiques that it does sort of take away the fear and take away some of the like instant the insta-defensiveness that otherwise might arise.
Cristen: Yeah, I think there's also the fear I just remembering, you know, you and I spent a good year like we really spent 2017 researching and writing Unladylike, the book before and this was before Unladylike, the podcast even launched, and so much of that was just getting a real deep history on the fucker-ery of white feminism.
Caroline: Right.
Cristen: And you and I, you know, have always been clear going into unladylike that no, we do not want to make just another, like, white feminist show. We are two feminists who are white, but we don't want to just add to the pile of of bullshit that white women have been responsible for propagating
Caroline: Yeah. I look back at myself, not even like when I first started podcasting with you, where I was a baby feminist who absolutely I would have said, yes, I'm a liberal feminist, fuck you, ah! Women's rights. But, you know, I remember you first talking to me about white privilege and being like, wait, what is this? Not that I was - I was not defensive about it, but I just remember being like, what are some of these concepts that you that are bubbling to the surface? Like this is all new to me. And so it's not even thinking back a decade of like, oh, wow, girl, you didn't know anything back then. It's constantly looking a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, 10 years ago, to be like Jesus Christ like. I have learned so much and doing this work keeps me open.
Cristen: OK, well, well. That reminds me of an email that we received earlier this year, sort of at the peak of the Black Lives Matter protests in response to the murder of George Floyd Brown, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery and. We got an email from a white listener who said she was going to quit listening until we hired or brought on a black co-host. Do you remember this email?
Caroline: Oh, yeah.
Cristen: And what did what did you think when you first when you first read that? Because I'm honestly surprised. Y'all, I'm honestly surprised we didn't get more emails like that.
Caroline: What I saw when I read that email was intentions gone awry because here was a white woman who had clearly been shaken in some way, in some direction, shaken up by the Black Lives Matter protests sweeping the nation. And for some reason, her her course of action included us willy nilly either hiring a black woman as a token. Or willy nilly replacing one of us with a token black woman. And I'm not so sure that that will solve racism or that that would make a better show because also what is tokenizing anyone ever accomplish. And then you responded. And so I'm curious what your what was your knee jerk and then what did you actually say to her? And or were they the same?
Cristen: Oh, OK, so. what she raised was like there was a there was a kernel, and even bigger than that, like she pointed out a truth. And the truth was like, hey, two white ladies. Also like our audio team that makes this, senior producer, Nora, and Gianna, our story editor, and Andi Kristens, our our sound engineer like we are white women. And in a lot of ways the makeup of our Unladylike podcast team is a reflection of our white privilege. And honestly, it's a reflection of much bigger issue, right? Like, whether we're talking about traditional newsrooms or podcast companies, there's still a lot of institutional racism and sexism that baked in. And that’s ALSO why I want to shout out our executive producer Daisy Rosario who is a RARE woman of color at that level in the industry -- which doesn’t take any of the onus off of US to keep our privilege in check, yknow? And so I wanted to respect, like the point that she was making, but also broaden the conversation to point out like, first of all, like there's something that you, listener, can do immediately. And that is you can go to Podcasts in Color, a directory of podcasts hosted and made by people of color and support them and subscribe to those podcasts, rate and review on Apple. Like there are. There are shows out there that could use your support and ways that you can diversify your podcast feed before asking all of the white hosts to find another job. And I also made the point about tokenism of just first of all, if it were if we could afford to hire someone else, which we could not, it would be disingenuous to do it in reaction to a problem with optics, because ultimately it wasn't a complaint about the content of our show or about the guest lineup, the voices that are most prominent on the show. It was a problem with how it looks that you and I are the hosts and, like, I think it's also presumptuous to assume that, you know, black women, women of color are just like clamoring to host this show. I would rather if I had the money and I could invest as Unladylike Media, I would like to invest in the idea, the pre-existing idea or the preexisting show that women of color have to just nurture that, basically just to give them the kind of runway that you and I were able to get in the process of selling our book, which gave us an advance that allowed us to quit our jobs. Like, I would love to be able to do that. But to assume that I have made the thing that must be so perfect that everyone is clamoring to get on that, like, I think that's misguided. I spent a lot of time thinking about that email. And I think that it was important and I so appreciate her reaching out to us, even if it was in a fever pitch, because after I replied to her, she responded back and was like, “Thank you. Yes, like I came in hot and I hear what you're saying, and I'm going to go subscribe to some new podcasts” like and not like a rude way, but like we were able to have a dialogue, which was great. But the one follow up I have for you, Caroline: Would the reaction be different if she were a woman of color making that demand?
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, you know, ultimately, I think the answer would have been very similar of like. We don't want to tokenize, that’s not what we're here to do, but we hear you on the like, “you're a bunch of white ladies thing,” and we strive to feature as many incredible voices from as many incredible people as we can on the show. But if the person writing that letter had been a black woman or a woman of color in general, it would have felt less like a random-ass lashing out, I think. I think that's what bothered me. And I don't I don't mean in a way of like, “don't be mean to me. Like, don't don't criticize my show.” It was more just like, holy shit, fellow white lady, there is so much important work to do and this is on your to-do list?? Versus if a black woman or a woman of color had approached us and said, like some something similar or have you thought about this even? Is this on your radar? Is this important to you? That to me is different, even if ultimately the answer would have been the same to to the person.
Cristen: Yeah. And one thing that I do want to underscore in terms of taking ownership of our our privilege and uplifting rather than co-opting, et cetera. The other one other big reason why just, you know, making a host switch, why that ultimately is misguided, is because that would also put the burden onto a person of color to do the work of making us, whether that is you and me or white listeners, they are it would be them performing the work in order for us to feel better about our media choices.
Caroline: Right.
Cristen: And that is is not progress. That is, again, it's tokenism. And it is, it's just more white privilege, really.
Caroline: OK y’all, we’re gonna take a quick break...
Cristen: When we come back, the Karens come for us, and we share our goals and predictions for 2021.
Caroline: Don’t go anywhere!
[Stinger]
Cristen: We’re back, and Caro let’s first listen to a clip from an episode from earlier this year called How to Not Be A Karen. That episode was a conversation with Mikki Kendall, author of Hood Feminism. Here’s Mikki.
Mikki Kendall: White supremacy runs through feminism as we currently describe it from its inception, but it's never really been challenged consistently by the people who need to challenge it. Yes, women of color have been challenging it. Communities of color have always challenged it. White women are not challenging each other enough.
Cristen: In that episode, we dug into the white-supremacy laced feminism that Mikki’s talking about - aka white feminism. We got a huge listener response to that episode. A lot of folks loved it, but for others the K-word aka Karen stoked some major listener rage.
Caroline: Boy did it. Yeah, and I cannot say this enough that you and I have a very thoughtful, open audience. We are very lucky. But, of course, a show about women and gender and feminism hosted by two white ladies, it's going to attract white feminists of all stripes. And boy, did that episode bring them out to really tell us just how offensive we were being by calling white women Karens, and wouldn't we hate it if our names were used as, quote unquote slurs? And basically, my answer shook out to A, Karen is not a fucking slur, y'all, fuck. B, Is that really all you took away from that fucking episode?
Cristen: Mmhmm
Caroline: Like we talked to a brilliant black author about the ways in which white women and white feminists have hurt black women and black feminists. And that's all you heard. That's all you heard?
Cristen: Yeah, and freshly in the wake of Amy Cooper calling the police, we now know twice on Christian Cooper in Central Park and exactly what you said, Caroline. Yes, I almost slipped and called you Karen.
Caroline: It's OK. KarenLine.
Cristen: Karenline. I.. it’s just like. Like if the only problem you see out of the existence of the term Karen, which is a slang based on the very real world behavior of white women weaponizing their race and gender to hurt black people. And you're just concerned about how people white ladies named Karen feel? Get the fuck all the way out of here.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: And yes, you can stay offended because I really and I hope that you do. I hope that you do, because I hope that that will make you think about it and think about what you are prioritizing and why why does it provoke you so much? Sit with that discomfort, get to know it. You know?
Caroline: Cristen, sometimes I feel part of my guilt is that I feel like, well, how the fuck can I get these people to listen?
Cristen: Hmm.
Caroline: Because all right, if a white woman is going to get defensive, maybe I, as another white woman, can continue to, you know, put chips in that armor because nothing that she does can hurt me, you know, like her tears aren't going to be weaponized against me. But then again, like am I - am I doing enough? You know, like, you and I educate people for a living. And we are active in social justice spaces in in various ways, but I have a lot of guilt around not being able to - I don't know what. To do something more about problematic white womanhood. Oh, God.
Cristen: I think about this too, Caroline, of like. Where is the line between kind of leveraging our white privilege to deproblematize other white people, and where is the line where is the line between doing that, you know, kind of using your whiteness to to hopefully foster better behavior among other white people, and when is that just a wasted effort because. People aren't going to listen if they don't want to. If you're yelling at them like it's it's pointless. And that's when I shift gears to saying, like, well, I'm I'm I'm similarly torn because half of me is like as a white woman, I am uniquely equipped to communicate to other white women because there is a difference when someone who, you know, looks like you, we talk a lot about representation
Caroline: Right.
Cristen: You know, when you see someone who looks like you, it can feel sometimes like the message can feel safer when it's coming from from a seemingly friendlier place rather than someone who just might remind you of your difference. But at the same time, like. I also feel like the the measure of how how effective we are is how much like people in more marginalized circumstances feel seen and heard by us. And I think that we can do both, I don't think that it has to be an either or because I want to invest I want to invest in like the in the spaces that want to receive it.
Caroline: Yeah. I think I think that I do have a degree of self-involved paranoia. Of fearing that I am not doing enough as a white woman to take other white women to task. But then you and I have heard from white women in person and via email who have told us directly to our faces that they would not have otherwise considered themselves feminists or grappled with any of these issues had it not been for conversations that you and I have on our podcast. So but again, I think it goes back to what you said about like if people are open to it, then that's great. But if people are not open to it, they're not going to listen anyway.
Cristen: For me. I also reach a point of like the very best that I can do is. What I'm doing right now, which is, I've invested my life into creating media that I hope makes people feel seen and validated and heard and challenged.
Caroline: Right, right.
Cristen: And a lot of it is like kind of. I don't know, making making what you want to see in the world and. And some days that has to be. Enough.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: Otherwise, I'll just spiral into a puddle of all the things that I'm not I'm not doing right. And I'm so curious to hear from unladylike listeners of like what feels like good enough for you these days?
Caroline: Yeah, because it's a it's a fine balance, right, of feeling like I'm doing what I can and that is enough versus wait, is that a cop out?
Cristen: Right. Yeah.
Caroline: I think that all the time, just about everything, like whether it's work, being a feminist, my personal relationships, my family, oh my God, let's talk about let's talk about some issues like. Yeah, I'm constantly grappling with. You are you, and that is enough versus like, but that's a cop out bitch.
Cristen: Well, Caroline, 2021, any predictions? Any any feelings, any any any sort of vision board big dreams you want to put out there to manifest or womanifest, as no one should ever say.
Caroline: Oh, boy, OK. I think on a large on a large scale I believe we will still not be hanging out in person, recording in a studio anytime soon. I one thing I want to put on my personal vision board, aside from just like stacks of dollar bills. Is feel - trying to feel more in control of the things that I can indeed control. I gave a lot of money in 2020 to various social justice organizations, but I have more than money. I don’t have a lot of money. I have more of other things than I do of money. Let's be real. I want to be more thoughtful about what else I can give. What else can I do with my time and my presence and my body to show up for the the causes that I believe in, um. And do it safely, because, you know, still we're not getting a vaccine tomorrow, no matter how much how many vaccines Dolly Parton funds at Vanderbilt, Cristen, we're not getting one tomorrow, so we still have to be real safe.
Cristen: This is true.
Caroline: Yeah. So intentionality, controlling what I can control. Being intentional. What about you?
Cristen: I mean, I cosign everything that you that you just said. I want to do all of those things and. I want to keep challenging myself to get more vulnerable and stay vulnerable Even in just the process of having this conversation and hearing myself talking about like all of this internal stuff that I'm working on and all of these like glaring insecurities and ways that I feel like I'm falling short, like. It takes away. So much of the power from all that fear that's really driving it, the fear that I'm not going to measure up, that I'm not going to be able to do it, that I'm not going to, that I'm going to disappoint, etc., and that I'm going to fail myself and everyone else. Just saying those kinds of things out loud and. And letting people hear them. I think I need to do more of that, not not just like, you know, it's just about like how I'm just taking my therapy into the main feed, you know what I mean. People, listeners have been so transparent with us over the years, and that has shaped so much of. What I feel like is not just my work, but my purpose, yeah, and. I don't think that I will feel like I am fulfilling that in any sort of way until I get to a place where I'm giving more of that back. So, on a personal level, that's what I hope for 2021 and on a political level like more, deeper, harder, you know, because there's. There's still so much work to be done, we have to hold the Biden administration accountable for a lot of shit. So we've got our work cut out for us. You and I live in Georgia, which means our work is always cut out for us here and. And I'm glad we. We're going to make it through 2020. Yeah, what a fucking year to survive.
Caroline: I know. And I'm glad we did.
Caroline: Before we go, we wanna shout out Podcasts in Color and its creator, Berry — it’s an incredible resource, and you should definitely check it out at podcastsincolor.com.
Cristen: And we also wanna shout out our Unladylike Media Patreon. For $5 per month, you get access to more than 25 bonus episodes, as well as new bonus episodes in your ears every week. Especially if you liked today’s more off the cuff the vibe, you’re gonna get in our Patreon where we answer listener letters, talk politics, pop culture and basically all the stuff we can’t fit into our regular Unladylike episodes. So if you’d like to make OUR spirits bright this holiday season, head over to patreon.com/unladylikemedia and subscribe.
Cristen: We also have a special bonus episode on Stitcher Premium coming out next Tuesday. It’s a conversation about design and gender with self-described feminist architect Lori Brown. Lori is one of the only architects in the country who studies abortion clinic design. Go to stitcher.com/premium and use the code UNLADYLIKE for a month of free listening.
Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Production help from Camila Salazar. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.
Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.
Cristen: Again, this is our last episode of Unladylike for 2020, so in the meantime, you can catch up on episodes you’ve missed and if you’re really feeling the holiday spirit, hop over to Apple Podcasts and to rate and review us. It makes a big difference to spread the Unladylike word.
Caroline: Til next year, remember: Got a problem?
Cristen: Get unladylike.
