Transcript | Ep. 109: How to Love Yourself with Tess Holliday

Tess Holliday: It is easy to say love yourself and do this and things will be fine. But that's not the reality. Because the reality for me was, I genuinely thought that when I learned that it was OK to love my body, that that meant that I would never be in a toxic relationship, that my life would be great, that my jobs would be easy. And then you realize that that's all bullshit and it's not true. And that loving yourself some days isn't loving yourself. It's - it's having to sit and be OK with that

[Theme music]

Cristen: Hey y'all and welcome back to Unladylike! I'm Cristen

Caroline: I'm Caroline

Cristen: Caroline, how excited are you to be back for our first brand new episode of 2021, on a scale of one to 10 airhorns???

Caroline: I’d say I’m at like 35 airhorns. And we hope y’all are just as excited, because not ONLY are we kicking off new Unladylike episodes today … we’re also making some changes around here! First and foremost, we’re getting rid of those long breaks between seasons — from here on out we'll be delivering fresh episodes nearly every single week for the next year.

Cristen: We're also planning to try out some new episode formats. Here's a hint: You might want to start calling us Carol-Ann Landers and Dear Cr-Abby?? Overall we are PSYCHED about our show's latest glowup and we hope you'll enjoy the ride ahead

Caroline: And that brings us to today's fresh, hot episode: We're going deep with the fashion model, body positivity activist and host of the new podcast Slumber Party, Tess Holliday.

Cristen: Tess is best known as the first plus-size model signed by a major agency — which was a major deal when it happened. She really considers it her job to change cultural beauty standards, and not just in terms of size inclusivity. She’s shorter than the average model, heavily tattooed and outspoken about the ugly sides of the industry.

Caroline: But making history hasn't been entirely glamorous. Even today, Tess constantly has to deal with fatphobic trolls who tell her she's unhealthy and has no business modeling.

Cristen: Most recently, she's also opened up about her toxic marriage that left her feeling broken down. And sharing that has meant reconciling her super confident public persona with years of pain in her private life.

Cristen: So today, we’re getting up close and personal with Tess about growing up, achieving her modeling dreams and what it’s really taken to learn how to love herself.

[Stinger]

Caroline: Well, can we go back to baby Tess?

Tess: Yeah.

Caroline: And ask you, what kind of girl were you raised to be?

Tess: God, um pfft — I wish that I could tell you that I was raised to be this like empowered woman that I am today, but that was not the case, because if I go by the examples that I was taught and that I saw, it was very different. I was raised to not have firm boundaries, to not say no, in many ways, to not dream big,And so for me, a lot of, you know, baby Tess's evolution has really happened in the last few years. I have done a lot of growing up in a in a short amount of time. But yeah, baby Tess was not empowered and she didn't love herself and she didn't even know that she could love herself.

Cristen: Now, we read you wanted to be a model when you grew up. So tell us about that dream, because in your your answer just now, you're saying that, you know, it sounded like you're describing a girl who didn't dream all that big. And yet, I mean, you wanted to be a model and you grew up. That's pretty huge.

Tess: Oh, no, listen, I had huge dreams when I was a kid. I mean, I I grew up in the rural south in the Bible Belt, and we moved all over, but primarily where I lived and where where I'm born was Mississippi. And so I spent most of my youth - I didn't have many friends, you know, I was not well liked in school. So I spent most of my time, you know, in the woods with my backpack full of snacks, dreaming about this life outside of [00:09:00] Laurel, Mississippi. And I wanted to do something in entertainment. I didn't know what that was going to look like. And when I was 15, you know, because I'm old, I heard an ad on the radio, and they were looking for plus size models. And I told my mom, I want to be a model. And thank God my delusion carried me so far, because I had no business wanting to, you know, I was - I'm - I'm short. I was short then. I was plus size and not a lick of experience. But I think there was just something inside of me, you know, my purpose was pushing me even though I didn't know that that's what was happening.

Cristen: So can you tell us the story of that first casting call you went to after you heard the the ad on the radio?

Tess: Yeah, so my mom and her husband at the time, which is the only nice thing that that man ever did for me, drove me to Atlanta, which was very far away from where I lived. It was about like six to eight hours away, far for my mom to be in a car. And they drove us to this casting call, which was at the Renaissance Hotel in Atlanta, Georgia. And there were a ton of girls and it was primarily for plus size. And you had to have headshots, which I had taken in my local town. they're so funny. I'm literally in these, like, cowhide shoes, white eyeliner, I have on these black capri pants with like ties on the bottom from Lane Bryant - don't think I didn't. And I had on this silver like button-up shirt and I'm laying on the ground with my like black bob flipped out, just cheesing to no end, and those were my headshots because, you know, my local town photographer in Laurel, Mississippi took them and you had to do a runway, which I had no experience. And I get there, and everyone is taller than me. Everyone is smaller than me. You know, I'm five foot three. I was about a size U.S. like 14, 16. And most of the people there were at least five foot eight because that was the standard for models. There were about 30 people there, like big people, too, like big agencies. And I got one callback from this booking agency and I went over to their table after and I was so happy because I got one, right? And I'm like, it could have been worse. I could have gotten none. And I go over there and the guy tells me, hey, you know, you're - you're pretty. But the best that you can ever hope for is to do like print modeling. And I said, what's that? And he's like, oh, like, you know, catalogue or something like that. So, I went away feeling pretty sad, but hopeful because I'm like, hey, one person liked me, but nothing ever - they never called me. Nothing happened.

Caroline: But if we fast-forward, a lot HAS happened! You bounced around between Seattle and Missipppi, you worked as a makeup artist, you had your first kid! And in 2010, you moved from Seattle to LA, where you are now. What did you expect, and what was the reality when you got there?

Tess: I mean, moving to L.A. was a long time in the works. At the time. I was a single mom with my little one and I, you know, had met my my partner at the time, and I moved to L.A. to be with my partner at the time. And all of my friends, literally, every single person was like, oh, you'll be back in a few months. You know, you're not gonna last long. I'm not friends with any of them anymore by the way. But no one believed in me. And I moved because, you know, I loved this person. But also, you know, I, I wanted to model, but I didn't I didn’t think that when I moved to L.A. my life, I thought when I moved to L.A., was going to be getting married, raising, you know, my older son. That's kind of where I thought my life was going. And I had photos on my Model Mayhem and I kind of forgot about them. And I, I got my first audition literally six months after I moved to L.A. They reached out to me on Model Mayhem. And, you know, the rest is history, as they say.

Cristen [00:26:47] Uhhm ok non-model question. What is what is Model Mayhem? I feel like I should know the answer to it already, but I have to ask.

Tess: No, you should not know. So, Model Mayhem was like basically a social networking site that was like MySpace, but it was it was for models, photographers and like creatives. And it ended up really just being this way for like cis man to hit on women. And like - like I remember, for example, one of my first, like, interactions on Model Mayhem when I moved to L.A. and this was after I got my like first big job. But what I - what I didn't realize was when you get kind of your first big job, that doesn't mean that you're just going to keep getting big jobs. Like my first job was I was on the side of buses and like billboards and like in for like this ad for this TV show. Even though my name wasn't attached to it, my promo, like my face was used for it. So I was everywhere. It was like this big moment, right. I had moved to L.A, I'm on billboards. And then two months later, I'm in this guy Kyle's room upstairs in his mom's house where he's trying to convince me in his dirty room to take my bra off and take photos on his bed. So that's what Model Mayhem is. Lots of Kyles. So, yeah, I mean, like, I don't recommend it. I don't know if it's still around, but yeah, that's what it is.

Cristen: Oh, my God. I feel like -.

Cristen: Many of us have met - met a Kyle.

Tess: Yeah. Yeah we have. Some of us married Kyles. You know it's it's. Yeah, you know.

Cristen: #YesAllKyles. And we’re also going to take a quick break.

Caroline: When we come back, Tess tells us what it was like when her modeling dreams actually came true and why being body-positive is sometimes easier said than done.

Cristen: Stick around.

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Cristen: We’re back with author, podcaster and glamourpuss, Tess Holliday.

Caroline: In 2014, Tess quit her day job to pursue her modeling full time, and the next year, Milk Model Management signed her to their plus-size division. It was a groundbreaking move, but there’s still a long way to go in terms of representation: For instance, plus size women still make up less than one percent of runway models

Cristen: So you, of course, were the first plus size model signed by a major agency. What came with being that first?

Tess: A bunch of shit, really. You know, I know that I'm the first to do it. There were many people before me that paved the way to get me to where I am, mostly women of color. I wouldn't have a career if it wasn't for you know the plus size women of color that came before me that that didn't have kind of the notoriety that I you know have had. And I understand that there's a lot of reasons why that is the case. And, you know, any time you're the first, that means that you're going to get the most shit. That means people aren't going to get what you're doing. That means people are probably going to think that you're weird and that you're you know "crazy" or any other kind of label that they try to put on you" But, you know, I - I wish that I could kind of go back and tell, you know, early me when all of that was happening, like, get a business manager, do this, like, do - navigate things a bit differently than how I had done them. And also kind of reminding myself that I need to have thicker skin because most of my successes throughout my career have been diminished because people focus on my perceived health and my size instead of my actual accomplishments. So it's constantly me, even then and now, having to prove why I deserve to be in a room.

Caroline: What do you think has changed the most in terms of like body acceptance and body positivity at large since you have been in this space and been a part of that conversation?

Tess: You know, I've been doing this for you know over a decade. And when I started doing it, I was usually the only plus-size person, and I was usually the person that was like, hey, why isn't this more diverse? Why don't you have any folks of color? Why is it just you know one kind of token fat person and you think you're like clicking, checking the boxes? So, I understood that I was being used in a very token way early in my career. Now, I don't really have to have those conversations as much with brands. I am still mindful because part of my work is actually changing society's standards of beauty. And that means a lot of work to making sure brands are diverse, that their messaging is diverse, that they actually give a shit about inclusivity. And those conversations are happening less and less, but they're still happening. And, you know, there's still work to be done, but it's not as much emotional labor.

Cristen: What has changed the least in terms of cultural body acceptance and size inclusivity. Either - either changed the least or is maybe the hardest to change.

Tess: Wow. What's changed the least is that when you see plus-size bodies, you know, on the cover of major magazines, those plus-size models are always five-foot eight, always hourglass, always with a pretty toned stomach. They might have like a kind of roll when they move. They might have like a baby little bit of back fat. But we're not seeing marginalized bodies yet. I mean, I'm not saying that those plus-size bodies on the cover of magazines aren't great and valid. They are. They - there is a place for them, just like there's a place for a body like mine. But I want to see more representation, especially in the plus size community. I want to see you know trans plus-size models. I want to see you know plus-size models that are differently abled. I want to see bodies that are indicative of the plus-size bodies that we are seeing in the world. There are all kinds of bodies. They are all beautiful, they are all worthy, and they do not all have hourglass figures and toned stomachs and big butts. And I know as a big-butt person myself, you know, I have one, but there are a lot of folks that don't, and that's OK. And I just wish that, you know, mainstream media would - would do a better job at just not being basic, you know, showing us showing us the same stuff because we've seen it and it's great. But like, you know, I want to see more.

Caroline: Yeah, how do you think - how do you think your whiteness influences how people perceive you, whether that is on a job or on social media or in in the body positivity space itself?

Tess: I mean, I already know by by being you know Caucasian that I'm going to get more opportunities, that I am going to be in rooms that other folks wouldn't, that I'm going to be able to have conversations that people wouldn't. And I have continually tried to use my privilege to help others, to use my platform to show that there are other folks that are killing it at what I'm doing or other other areas. And it's really it's not as simple because I've had people say, well, you know, if you really want to help folks of color, then you can just give them your job that you're getting booked for. And as much as I would love to do that, that's not how it works. Trust me, I've tried. But, you know, when I am in those rooms, when I am able to have those conversations, when people actually listen to me, then, you know, I I feel like collectively I'm able to help and contribute and have those conversations with folks and say, like, you know, this is where they're failing. This is where they need to do better. And I wish that there wasn't such a big jump from the opportunities that I'm able to have versus someone my size of color. And it fucking sucks.

Cristen: So one question that came up for us as we were thinking about body positivity and inhabiting our own bodies is when do you think body positivity turns into telling people how they should feel about their bodies, like you should love it. It's all great when like - do I have to feel a way?

Tess: Yeah I don’t always fucking love my body. I don't you know, I, I have always told people again and again that what you see on Instagram isn't real life. It's not indicative of what's going on. You know, especially when I was in my abusive relationship, what people were seeing online was not indicative of what was really happening. And - and I know that that can be really hard for folks to kind of understand because, you know, online, people are painting this happy picture and you're saying, you know, It is easy to say love yourself and do this and and things will be fine. But that's not the reality. Because the reality for me was, I genuinely thought that when I learned that it was OK to love my body, that that meant that I would never be in a toxic relationship, that my life would be great, that my jobs would be easy. And then you realize that that's all bullshit and it's not true. And that loving yourself some days isn't loving yourself. It's - it's having to sit and be OK with, you know, with that, especially after the birth of my second child, I really have struggled with my body. And it's only been the past few months - and I've shared this publicly -that I've been OK with seeing my body and and being OK with the way that it's changed and giving myself permission to love my body even on the days that I don't like it. So I think just normalizing that we all struggle with body image issues. And normalizing that you don't have to love your body all the time. And maybe some people say that they don't ever - I would like to hope that that for some that they are able to because it makes me sad when I think that people can't get to a place where you can truly love the body that you're in. But, yeah, I mean, it's - I just think that you have to remember that we are all individually our own beings and that it's complex and that what works for me might not work for someone else. And any time you're going to dole out advice like that, you have to understand that, you know, for some the journey is going to look a bit different. And that's OK.

Caroline: So how does - how does that like shifting attitude about body image or self acceptance tie into some of what you post on Instagram? So, for instance, like we saw a post where you talked about like, you know what? Like I'm sick of posting workout videos for y'all. Like I'm sick of -.

Tess: Yeah.

Caroline: Having to perform this.

Tess: Mm-hmm.

Caroline: So like - So how does like your decision to post or not post that kind of stuff, tie in with your - your, like, acceptance or how you feel about yourself?

Tess: Yeah, so any time I share things on social media, I always check my intent. Why am I sharing this? What am I hoping to get out of what I'm sharing? So I check my intentions. And it has not always been that way, I want to be clear, before I would just post whatever and and you know very much leaning on needing external validation. Now it's just me being more purposeful about what I post, which is why part of that post that you're talking about came into play, because for me, I have been fat my entire life. I have had people my entire life telling me that I am a steaming pile of shit that doesn't deserve to walk the earth, that's going to die of a heart attack when I'm 40, I hear this literally thousands of times a day. And I'm not being dramatic because I have a lot of followers across social platforms. And, any time, you know, Joe Rogan decides to talk about me on his podcast or any other weak-ass white man decides to mention my name and like shit all over me, then I get a bunch of people that - that talk shit and it makes it worse. And then those days look totally different. And, you know, for me, I had to - I had to really implement, why am I sharing this? What - like, checking my intentions. And for me, the workout videos, it started to feel performative. I felt like I was almost posting it to prove that I was worthy of people accepting me, that I was worthy of people respecting me because I get a ton of people telling me how unhealthy I am. Well to me, health is not a moral mandate. No one owes being healthy to anyone. My mom is literally in a wheelchair and deemed probably unhealthy. But that's not - that's not - what happened to my mom is not her fault. Even if it was, it still doesn't matter. She still is deserving of love and respect and is a still whole-ass human outside of what her perceived health is. And so for me, for me posting this working out content, it was almost like - and I - and I still share you know, I started doing Pilates about a month and a half ago and it's completely changed my life. And I wish they were paying me to say this because it's so expensive, but it's completely changed my body and how I view it. And I'll eventually talk about it. But like, when I'm ready. And I post videos of me working out now because I want to because I'm excited, but not because I feel like I have to and not because I am begging for society to view me as an individual worthy of being loved because I'm a quote unquote good fatty who is working out and moving her body. Like, that's just corny, to be honest.

Caroline: When we come back, Tess tells us about getting out of her abusive marriage and why she decided to tell the world about it

Cristen: That’s after a quick break

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Caroline: We’re back, and we’re talking with author, model and podcaster Tess Holliday

Cristen: Tess — whose legal name is actually Ryann Hoven — wasn’t always the confident, outspoken body-positivity icon we know today

Caroline: In an essay for InStyle that you wrote, you said, "For so long, I was just pretending. There was a disconnect between Ryann, my legal name, and Tess." Could you tell us about that disconnect and what your pretending looked or felt like?

Tess: So when I started modeling, I chose the name Tess because I didn't want people from my small town knowing that Ryann Hoven was out in these streets being a model, you know what I mean? I was like, I don't want them to know shit, fuck them. I'm going to change my name and then they'll never know. But what I didn't know is that I would have global success and that people in my little tiny Laurel Leader Call magazine would be like writing about me one day and that people would know, you know, that Tess Holliday was Ryann Hoven and all of this stuff. So it was kind of just like a little secret I kept, because I think really when I look back, it was because I didn't really feel aligned with who Tess was. I created Tess because that was who I wanted to be. She was who I knew I maybe was, but I didn't know how to get there. It was this like, Tess was confident and, you know, loved her body and, you know, was all of these things. But Ryann knew that that was there. I just, I was kind of just trying to, like, meet up with that. So the pretending looked like, you know, not being as confident as I could on photo shoots, not being present in the moment, shrinking myself to fit into spaces where I felt like I didn't belong, but I did. And doing things that didn't feel aligned to who I was authentically. And now I really pride myself on not partnering or working with anyone that doesn't feel aligned ethically with what I believe, what I believe in and who I am. And now I feel aligned - like Tess and Ryann are one person. And when people need me, whether it's dating, friends, whatever, if it's a new person, you know, they'll ask, well what do you want me to call you? Do you want me to call you Ryann or Tess? And I can - I used to say, oh, no, Tess, just Tess. And now I love Ryann. You know, it's one person. I don't have to decipher and it feels good. I feel like a whole human being and it feels - it feels good to just be in in that space where I don't have to just constantly feel like I need to flip identities to match who I want to be in that moment. I just am who I am.

Cristen: Was there any sort of pivotal moment that helped sort of merge both of both Tess and Ryann? Like, what sort of led to that, do you think?

Tess: I think it was it was probably going through my - my former marriage. My marriage was very, very hard, very abusive, very destructive in a lot of ways, and I kind of lost myself a bit because I was in survival mode. And, you know, I was very much like in that time that I was really suffering. I wrote a book on how to love yourself. I was like touring the world, you know, like, like, promoting my book and talking about all this. And inside I was - I was in so much pain and I was suffering immensely. And I just I felt kind of - I felt very lost. I felt very trapped, felt very isolated despite having a following, despite having people that looked to me daily for confidence and advice. And so through- through realizing that I was in an abusive relationship and what that looked like getting out, which is still very new. It's been almost two years. Not almost, about a year and a half. And it's been really in that time in the past few years that I have been able to really find out who I am. And I feel like now more than ever, I know who I am. I know my purpose. I know where I'm going and what I'm doing, which is a lot more than I could say a couple of years ago. Add that to being one of the lucky ones that's able to say that I got out of of that kind of situation because I know that a lot of folks aren't able to say the same.

Caroline: What what do you think helped? Like what - I know you, you know you went through this difficult relationship and you got out of this marriage, but like, what were some of the puzzle pieces or the glue I guess, that helped sort of make that happen?

Tess: I mean, not having somebody in my ear tell me what a shitty person I am and gaslighting me 24/7 was probably the biggest puzzle piece because then once you're able to realize, wait, I'm not a horrible person, I am a wonderful person, deserving of love, deserving of good things happening to them. And you're able to kind of start living and you're able to kind of put the pieces together and, you know, so for me, it was I had always said throughout my career and it was true except for this one part of my life, which was a huge part of my life. But I had always said, make sure - because everyone always said, how do you love yourself? What advice do you have? And I would always tell people it's really important to have a circle of people around you that that love you, that support you, that aren't yes-people, that challenge you, but also hold you accountable. And I have that and I very much still do have that. But I also had a big part of me that was, you know, any time a success happened, it was diminished. And any time something good happened, it was taken from me and my personal life and my and my home life was so tumultuous that I wasn't able to to find the balance that I really needed in order to to kind of break away from toxic patterns and to be able to love myself fully. Not that I have it all figured out. I don't. But to be able to really, like, align myself with who I saw in the mirror with who, you know, when people were saying, you inspired me so much, I would, you know, I would say thank you. And I you know, I would accept the compliment, but I didn't believe it. I couldn't understand it. It was still very much like I was an outsider looking in in my own life. Now I'm able to accept compliments. I'm able to be proud of my success, and I'm able to really know who I am without feeling like I need to change or alter that in order for someone else to love me.

Cristen: In January you shared a post on your Instagram about the abuse you experienced from your ex-husband. How has it felt openly up publicly? Like kind of what's been the impact for you personally of talking about it?

Tess: Well, I didn't share it until about a year and a half after I left so recently. It was not planned. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I just felt called to share it that day. And it felt you guys I felt - like, like I know I'm fat as shit, but it felt like I just became the skinniest person in the world. Like I felt like just the weight had been lifted, I felt like I could breathe. I felt like I - because it was just I was keeping this secret, like like many victims do. And you're you're embarrassed and you're all of these things. And when I was finally able to share my story, I was met with so so much compassion, so much love. And beyond that, I was just able to finally share my truth and then hopefully not repeat that and be able just to start living my life. And I have been happier in the past couple months and in the past year than I have been in my entire life. And, you know, it makes me sad when I think that there are some people that will - that will never or may never get to this point because I just feel so, so - such immense gratitude literally every time I wake up. So, yeah, I mean, it's been very instrumental and into my healing process because I, I don't feel like I have to hide anymore and I'm not ashamed. You know, it's it - it was done to me and - but it's not who I am. And yeah, it's been a really great feeling.

Cristen: Well, if you could go back to, I guess, baby Ryann in Mississippi and tell her anything, what would it be?

Tess: Oh, wow, baby Ryann would have never, ever imagined that her life would have ended up like this. I guess what I would tell, you know, baby Ryann is that it gets better. And everything that I'm going through is going to be worth it. And it's going to be so wonderful and it's going to be harder and it's not going to be easy, but that it's going to be worth it. And, you know, I feel very lucky to have created the life for myself that I had always dreamt of.

Caroline: You can find Tess Holliday on Instagram at @tessholliday. Holliday is spelled with two L’s!

Cristen: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week...

Morgan Jerkins: What I had to realize was, even though I'm researching my ancestors. I cannot superimpose my modern framework on what these people did to survive, you know. Because whatever choices that they made, whether I think they were right or wrong, if they didn't make them, I most likely wouldn't be here. That is difficult to contend with, but that's the thing about history. History doesn't care about your feelings.

Caroline: We’re talking with Morgan Jerkins, author of the book Wandering in Strange Lands: A Daughter of the Great Migration Reclaims Her Roots. Morgan uncovers some uncomfortable truths about her own lineage that forced her to reckon with what it means to be Black in American.

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