Transcript | Ep. 102: How to Be the Bachelorette

Caroline: How does it feel to have 30 hunky straight men thirsting after you all at once?

Rachel: It's a beautiful thing. I love it. It is the most. And like I don't understand how anybody can see this as a negative. This is what you call a win and you put it in that column. It is so empowering to have 30 men, whether they're there for the right or wrong reasons, they are there on your season and they are there to be a part of what you're doing. You're running the show.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Caroline, this episode of Unladylike is coming out on Election Day 2020. But president, shmesident — today, we need to talk about another American institution that’s almost as important, and that’s the Bachelor reality television franchise.

Caroline: Mm, yes.

Cristen: And I’m not kidding about it being an institution, either — The Bachelor and Bachelorette have been on for a combined FORTY seasons of very straight, very white and very conventionally attractive singles competing for monogamy.

Caroline: But Cristen, some big Bachelor Nation news dropped the day we’re recording this. Current Bachelorette Clare Crawley is leaving mid-season, and past Bachelor contestant Tayshia Adams will be taking her place. That makes Tayshia just the second woman of color to become the Bachelorette.

Cristen: This is also big news for today’s Unladylike guest Rachel Lindsay. Because not to be cliche, but in terms of the franchise, Rachel walked so Tayshia could run. ...

[Clip from Bachelorette]

Chris Harrison: You wanted Rachel as our next Bachelorette. Guess what? Rachel is our Bachelorette. Ladies and gentleman. Rachel! [applause]

Caroline: Rachel’s a lawyer, a correspondent for EXTRA , and co-host of the podcasts, Higher Learning and Bachelor Happy Hour. But she’s most famous for being the first Black Bachelorette and the first Black lead in the franchise’s history.

Cristen: Caroline, even as a bit of a Bachelor outsider, I’ve been sooo curious about Rachel and her experience on the show. Since her season aired back in 2017, she's become one of the most outspoken critics of the franchise’s non-diversity — from its casting and storylines to the production team making the show.

Caroline: So today, we’re talking with Rachel about the highs and lows of being the first Black bachelorette, why her season desperately needed a diversity consultant, and why she almost broke up with Bachelor Nation.

[Stinger]

Cristen: Now Caroline, you can’t just nominate yourself or audition to become the Bachelorette. Typically, those leads are former contestants who’ve had their hearts broken by a previous Bachelor — and now they get a second chance to find love.

Caroline: Right. So the typical path to becoming the Bachelorette goes like this. Once you’re a contestant on the Bachelor, you have to get far enough in the picking process that producers actually give you a storyline. And ideally, you win over enough Bachelor Nation fans that producers know you’re a star who could carry your own season as the lead.

Cristen: Rachel, though, never envisioned herself on either show. Like me, Caroline, she’s more of a Real Housewives-head. She was literally minding her own business — focusing on her legal career in Texas — when her reality TV fairytale began.

Cristen: Tell us the story of how you even ended up on The Bachelor.

Rachel: Oh, my God. So timing is everything I just started at this new law firm and two coworkers come into my office. They come in and close the door. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is a mean girl situation. Because law is really competitive. And I knew the girls, they were nice, but I was like, why are they coming in, why are they closing the door? They sit down and they're like, listen, Bachelor tryouts are in two weeks down the street. We think that you should try out. And I just kind of laughed. I'm like, you guys, I don't watch that show. And furthermore, what I do know about that show is black people don't go far. So I don't think that that's for me.

Caroline: It was 2016 when Rachel’s coworkers suggested that she audition. In the decade leading up to that, The Bachelor had only cast a dozen Black contestants. Total. And most of them were eliminated in the first two weeks.

Cristen: But Rachel’s co-workers argued their case anyway.

Rachel: They both said, no, if you go on this show, you will go far like you will do well on it. And then I don't know, I it's this is where it gets like weird, because I really did have a feeling, I felt drawn to the experience to go to the audition. I, I was just like, why not? I've never had this before. What do I have to lose? I'm coming off this big break up. I was with a guy for five years, still into him at that point, really kind of feeling lost, really had hit a plateau in my career and I just was like, you know what why not? And I went, and I go to the audition. It's not as crazy as you think or as eventful, but the line was long, and I tried to leave early and they said, no, actually, we'll skip you to the front of the line if you wait five more minutes. And then it just took off from there.

Cristen: Rachel was cast in the 21st season of The Bachelor, which premiered in January of 2017. That season’s hunk was a white software salesman named Nick Viall.

CLIP:

Nick: I’m not colorblind..I know you’re Black. But the reason I gave you the 1st impression rose, was how easy we connected, my attraction to you physically. That you were just a very beautiful, impressive woman. That makes a great impression.

Caroline: Rachel made such a great impression that Nick kept picking her - all the way to the final three. And that’s when The Bachelor really ramps up the emotional stakes.

Cristen: Yeah, so this is a hallmark trope on the franchise: Every season, the bachelor or bachelorette goes home with each of the final three contestants to meet their families. It's Bachelor Nation shorthand for Things Are Getting Serious!!

Caroline: Rachel had made it farther than any other Black contestant. So for the first time ever, Bachelor Nation watched an interracial couple meet the parents.

Rachel: No one had ever had a hometown where you were seeing an interracial couple go home. So I thought it was important for the show to address that because those are real conversations that are had…

Caroline: Bachelor Nick was nervous that Rachel’s family wouldn’t be down with her bringing home a white dude.

[CLIP - Nick being nervous about meeting Rachel’s family]

Nick: Will I be similar to the guys you dated before? Will I be different? Will they be like oh this makes sense, or will they be like what?!

Rachel: I..Yes and no…

Nick: How so? Could you be more specific?

Rachel: Ok, no I’ve never brought home a white guy. I’ve dated white guys. I’ve never brought home a white guy.

Rachel: The reality is, if you want this relationship to be successful in the real world, you have to have these conversations. Otherwise, you're just setting it up for failure, because although it shouldn't matter and it is unfair that people are going to judge you on based on being in an interracial relationship and have these preconceived notions about you, you still have to prepare yourself for it, even if it is unfair. That is the reality. That's a reality that you don't have in the bachelor bubble but will smack you in the face the moment that you step out of it.

Cristen: Then just a few weeks after Nick met Rachel’s family, he broke her heart and ended things.

[CLIP: Nick Says Goodbye]

Nick: You’re the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life

Rachel: Yeah

Nick: Selfishly, I hope someday this won’t be a goodbye forever, because it is so hard to say goodbye to you right now. \

Caroline: Before she’d even had a chance to pack up and go home, the Bachelor powers that be called Rachel in for a meeting.

Rachel: And so I go, I go with the producers. I'm thinking I'm in trouble. Like I did something. And they're like, what do you think about being The Bachelorette? And I just remember laughing. And I was like, no you guys are kidding. You're just trying to make me feel better. They're like, no, no, no. Seriously. And I’m like I don't know if it's for me. I was just really afraid of losing my career, losing respect in my career. I just didn't think it was me. My parents did not want me to do it because they're just you never know what to expect when you're the first at something. It's an honor to be asked to be the first, but it's also a really scary place. And they told me to go home and think about it.

Cristen: Caroline, the timing of Rachel getting asked to be the franchise’s first Black lead was also significant. In the years leading up to Rachel’s star turn on the Bachelorette, pressure had been mounting for more casting diversity.

Caroline: Right. In 2012, two Black men filed a class action lawsuit against the franchise and the network alleging racially biased casting. A judge ultimately dismissed the lawsuit, ruling that the franchise had a First Amendment right to cast whomever it wants. But the negative publicity was loud enough that the contestant pools got slightly more diverse, and in 2016 the network started publicly promising that a "diverse" lead was on the way.

Cristen: Cut to Rachel heading back to Texas to think about whether to be that first black bachelorette. While she was home, she was recognized by a fan — a Black woman — who told her how excited she was to finally see someone who looked like her getting so far on The Bachelor. The woman had actually quit watching the franchise because it was so whitewashed, but she and her daughter had been watching Rachel’s season and rooting for her together.

Rachel: And I thought, man, how many other people in a franchise feel that way? Now, here I am in a position to be the lead. And what would her daughter say about that? What would it look like for a young girl to see someone who looks like her in this position, who's been a fan of the show for, at that time, 15 plus years and hadn't seen anyone who looked like them who is representative of them in this role? And I thought, you know what, I'm going to do it just for that, because I felt like I could do it right. I could do it well. And I wasn't really thinking so much of I'm going to fall in love. I was just more thinking I need to do this for the culture and maybe I'll open doors for other people to feel like they're comfortable to be on this show and to be themselves on this show. And then I was just really blessed that it actually worked out, too.

Cristen: So you said, you know, you knew that you could do it right. So what is what is doing it right mean?

Rachel: I felt like — oh, gosh, this is this is when I'll say something that makes headlines. OK. So here we go. What I think the audience doesn't understand — and by this I mean white people — that you're judged by you’re judged by America. But then you're also judged by black America. And a lot of times black people will judge you for not being black enough. And, you know, white America will say you're too black. And this goes all the way back to the plantation time of trying to assimilate and fit in to what you think is a certain standard of how you should be to be accepted. And that might be watering down your blackness. And I have seen that from other people of color on the show at times. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to fully represent myself and and represent myself as a black woman. Not just as a black woman, as a professional, as a woman in her 30s. All of these things, being outspoken, being strong, being independent and not afraid to represent myself as that way, but more so as a black woman. And that's been great in a lot of ways and that I've gotten a lot of criticism for that. But I was going to be unapologetically myself and not afraid of those stereotypes that were going to be placed on me. And I thought it was important for the first black lead to make sure that they didn't try to tone their blackness down for the - for an audience that hadn't seen it before.

Caroline: But Rachel wasn’t entirely prepared for what that would take once the cameras started rolling.

Cristen: We’re gonna take a quick break. When we come back, Bachelor Nation finally meets its first Black Bachelorette — and Rachel meets her future husband.

Caroline: Don’t go anywhere!

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Rachel Lindsay, former Bachelorette and the first Black lead across the entire Bachelor franchise.

Cristen: Now Caroline, I went back and watched Rachel’s season of The Bachelorette. And going in, I knew who she ended up with. But I kid you not, when her now-husband Bryan got out of that limo with a beard and a well fitting suit, I said DAAAMN, OK! OK!

Caroline: And you can hear their chemistry, too. Here's the moment they first met for the first time.

[Bachelorette clip]

Bryan: Hey Rachel.

Rachel: Hello

Bryan: How are you?

Rachel: I’m good. How are you doing?

Bryan: Doing good, good. Well first of all, my name is Bryan. Spanish Te quiero decir Y no puedo esperar... Did you get all that?

Rachel: Some of it. Something about I look spectacular tonight

Bryan: Yo, you get brownie points for that. So I have a question, have you ever dated a Colombian guy before?

Rachel: Not Colombian.

Bryan: Girl, you in trouble. But it’s all good trouble. So, I look forward to getting to know you better.

Rachel: I look forward to getting in trouble.

C&C: [Saved-By-the-Bell-style WOooOoOOOoooo!]

Cristen: Caroline, I need to go take a cold shower! Just kidding.

Caroline: Now, there were plenty of frogs among Rachel’s 31 potential prince charmings. But among them was a straight-up slimy-ass racist amphibian who producers cast anyway.

Cristen: Yeah, one of the most astonishing things about watching her season — and keep in mind, it’s the only season I’ve ever seen — but just a few episodes in, it’s clear as a viewer that one of the contestants — a country singer named Lee, go figure — was NOT there for the right reasons. Because Lee was a real shit-stirrer, but only toward the Black guys in the group. Like, the racism was pretty blatant when it was just the guys hanging out together.

Caroline: Rachel, of course, wasn’t seeing that behavior in real time. Lee would turn on the charm whenever he was around her, and none of the other guys ever pulled Rachel aside to be like, hey, Lee’s a racist, and I thought you should know.

Cristen: But even though she wasn’t aware that production had y’know “just so happened” to cast a racist who was antagonizing Black contestants, the racial dynamics at play in her season were getting real for her in a different way. So I wanted to ask Rachel more about what she was feeling and maybe couldn’t directly say on camera.

Cristen: There was a moment in early in the season, I think it was the episode four, where you kind of had you had a very emotional confessional where you talk about how you said, “I already know what people are going to say about me and judge me for the decisions I'm making.”

CLIP:

Rachel: The pressures that I feel about being a black woman, and what that is, and how ... I don’t even want to talk about it. [crying] I get pressured from so many different ways being in this position.

Cristen: And I was wondering if you if you remember at all kind of what what you meant and what you were sort of working through in real time, it seemed like, in that space.

Rachel: So in that moment, I was really frustrated because I. I wanted to send somebody home who was black, and I was told I couldn't. And I was really frustrated with. OK, so You're telling me that I have to keep black people as if I'm supposed to be with a black man. Like the world is going to judge me by, like, oh, you're black. You got to be with black. And that's what I was feeling in that moment. And I was frustrated because I was like, I should be able to send home whoever I want to send home. And if I don't like a certain black man, that's your fault for your casting choices. And I and I said that, this didn't air, but that's what was going on. I was like. I you know, like if you if you wanted it to be a certain way, I said, I. There are definitely men of color that I loved on my season. But I thought as a whole I would get a lot more. And I remember I said that after I saw all the men, all the 31 men that came out, and I was disappointed that there weren't even more. And then I was disappointed also with the ones that I had, because as I told them, they don't date black women. I'm telling you for a fact. And that actually came out on my season. There were guys who did not date black women at all, and there was one who had never dated one before. And I said, I I'm telling you, we can tell this, like black women can tell this. They thought it was an interesting storyline. And I was like, I live this every day of my life. If you want me to keep certain ones, you need to bring more. So I was very frustrated And in that moment, then you see me talking to my producer saying, you don't understand the pressure that is on me. You don't understand what how I'm going to be judged by two different Americas because people are gonna tell me what they think I should have done, rather. And it's not fair. But that's the reality.

Cristen: One behind-the-scenes detail Rachel shared with us that stuck out to me, Caroline, was how the show’s production staff is kinda divvied up between the producers assigned to the Bachelorette, and the producers assigned to all the contestants. Apparently, there were Black producers on set, but they were all assigned to the men, while Rachel’s production team was all white.

Rachel: And I was frustrated because I'm looking at a room full of people and nobody looks like me. Nobody could get what I was saying because there were no black people. And I was extremely frustrated by that.

Caroline: So, while Rachel was working through her frustrations in the confessional, her production team summoned really the last person she needed to see in that moment: the show’s veteran host and the white male face of the franchise, Chris Harrison.

Rachel: And I'm like, what is he's not gonna get it either. And I was frustrated cause they were trying to film it all. I was looking for a lifeline and nobody could throw it to me in the room because they hear me, but they don't get me. And that's what a lot of people of color experience with the franchise. And that's part of the reason they don't go far. A lot of you going far is about you opening up and you being able to relate and have deep conversations with your producer. But if your producer doesn't get you, then why would I ever open up and even go there? You don't even understand me. So how am I gonna be successful on this show? That moment was a very real moment for me. I wish I could have you could have seen the entire thing, the way it played out. But it was in that moment that I was like, I'm really there. I care about these producers. I'm still close to this day with some of them. But none of them will fully understand me because they don't walk around this world as a black person.

Caroline: Leading up to her finale, Rachel had narrowed down her potential husbands to Eric, a Black guy; Peter, a white guy; and Bryan, a Latino guy. Like we totally spoiled earlier, Rachel ultimately picked Bryan, and we were curious whether she got any blowback for not ending up with a Black contestant.

Rachel: So the only people that I got a big reaction from was the world, the rest of the world. But the interesting.

Cristen: Just the rest of the world.

Rachel: Just the rest of the world. But you know what? It's people who don't know me. So I don't even really care as much. I if I was 22 instead of 32 when I was on the show. Sure. But by, by the time you step into your thirties, you don't give a fuck. And so I was like, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's unfair and it's not right that people have something to say, but who cares. Like y'all are over there mad and I'm over here happy because I just found love in the most unconventional way. Like stay mad. What is that doing? Happy. You know, I'm about to go get married I found love on TV. How crazy is that? And that's just always kind of been, doing this reality TV thing, the way that I've navigated it all. I don't even know you. Why am I gonna be upset over what you have to say? Like, I've been navigating this world as a black woman. I've faced racism. I've been belittled I - all of that. And it's you know, you're I have very thick skin. And you you do when you're a person of color in America. And you're always taught you have to work twice as hard for half as much. So the fact that you're bothered because I picked a man who doesn't look like me? Next, like I'm so used to it.

Caroline: So in a 2018 essay, you described your season finale, your live season finale, as being, quote, “placed on display for three hours and labeled as an angry black female.” So tell us a little about how that went down, how you felt, and also how it felt when Chris Harrison asked whether you were angry.

Rachel: I'm still mad Chris Harrison asked me if I was angry. Nah, I'm not still mad, but that was that was a moment for sure.

Cristen: Caroline, this season finale was wild to watch. It was filmed with a live audience, which the franchise had never done before. So picture this: the host Chris Harrison and Rachel Lindsay are sitting onstage. The stage is in the center, kind of like a wrestling ring, and they’re surrounded by a pretty much all-female Bachelor Nation live studio audience. So, Chris Harrison, Rachel and the audience are all watching her finale on camera. Everyone is seeing all of this for the first time, right? And toward the end, it gets pretty intense because there is this SUPER emotional breakup scene with her second-to-last suitor, Peter. In it, PETER ends things with Rachel because he's on the fence about proposing to her — and remember that even on the Bachelorette, the man must propose. But Rachel wasn't gonna compromise - she wanted a fiance, not a boyfriend, and Peter wouldn't step up.

Caroline: So Peter basically dumps HER on camera??

Cristen: Basically! Like it is so emotional, and now, Rachel’s having to relive all of that in front of an audience, sitting next to fucking Chris Harrison — and after a commercial break, Chris Harrison starts prodding Rachel ...

[CLIP: Chris Harrison asking Rachel if she was angry]

Chris: We went to break. You seem a little upset.

Rachel: I mean it’s hard. There’s no denying that I didn’t care for Peter. There’s no denying that I didn’t love Peter…You know you see me say it..

Chris: Are you a little angry with him?

Rachel: No, I’m not angry. Angry is a strong word. It’s frustration. That’s the best word to describe it.

Rachel: And I remember being livid watching this finale because I was tortured on stage and painted as an angry black female. I was hot. And I felt like they played into a certain persona and a stereotype, and they put me in a position to respond in a certain way. I didn't. I never raised my voice. I never cursed or anything like that. But people still look at me as angry. And it's nothing that I said. It is what they said to me. My response wasn't even angry. In that moment, I became the angry black female. And people couldn't see anything else. Which was, it was very unfair. And I was upset that I was placed in that position. And I've actually received apologies from from production about the way they handled that. And I think that, again, plays into why it is so important to have people of color in the decision room, why it is so important to have them a diversity consultant involved. Because they could've told you what could possibly happen. And instead, it became trial and error because you don't get it because you never had to be in this position before.

Caroline: Racial stereotyping is a long-running problem on the franchise. Think: Latinas getting the spicy edit, East Asian contestants getting exoticized and Black women getting labeled aggressive.

Cristen: Yeah, one recent example made me double take, Caroline. So in the 2016 Bachelor season -- the one right before Rachel’s -- Jubilee Sharpe was a black contestant and an early frontrunner. One of that season’s four white Laurens was not having it said, and said direct to camera, in reference to Jubilee: "Ben wants to have a wife that will be friends with all the other soccer moms.”

Caroline: Yikes! That is not a dog whistle. That is just racist.

Cristen: But Caroline as we know, Rachel did find her happy ending. Bryan proposed to Rachel on the final episode. Here's Rachel in the finale talking about the moment when she knew Bryan was the one for her.

[Clip from finale]

Rachel: Well when I was defending him to my family and I was explaining, why he means so much to me and why he’s here and I told them he was my best friend. I like shocked myself in that moment. I was like, this is really like the one for me. This is the man for me. He truly is my best friend.

Rachel: And I always go back and think what would happen if I never had said yes? Would I have chased that relationship that was going nowhere? Would I have stayed in that career that I had worked so hard for, but I felt like something else was missing and I wanted more. Women will constantly ask me, you know. How did you know it was Brian? How did you make the decision to step outside of your race and date someone? And um that response, really. It's my favorite because I truly connect with those women and I know what they're going through. And I would always say, if you have a list, throw it away, because we all have one, whether it's mental or it's actually written down somewhere. I said throw it away. And it's about who you connect with. You know, you hold on to your core values and what's important to you and things that you're not going to negotiate on. But other than that, let the rest of it go know weight, height, color, certain jobs, you know, let all that go and really focus on what's within and who you connect with.

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, Rachel considers breaking up with Bachelor Nation.

Caroline: Don’t go anywhere!

[Stinger]

Cristen: We’re back with politically outspoken reality TV queen, Rachel Lindsay.

Rachel: My main reason for going on the show was.. I was hoping that I would diversify the audience a bit. I was hoping more contestants of color would be more comfortable coming on the show. I was hoping producers would would be involved in the show that were of color. And in the three years since I had been on the show that first premiered, I did not see that that I did not see those changes. And I saw the show going right back to where it was.

Cristen: Now, Rachel’s relationship with the franchise didn’t end once her Bachelorette season was over. Like other popular alums, she’s made appearances on specials and reunions. And she co-hosts the franchise’s official podcast, Bachelor Happy Hour.

Caroline: But Rachel hasn’t stayed silent about its shortcomings, either. On a Bachelorette reunion special last year, she said she was sad to be the only woman of color on the stage. Earlier this year in May, she led a segment on the Bachelor’s Women Tell All special about the racist fan harassment that she and other women of color on the show experience.

Cristen: Then, in a June 8 blog post, Rachel threatened to cut ties if the franchise and ABC didn’t start making meaningful changes. Specifically: casting leads genuinely interested in dating outside their race, hiring more producers of color, and publicly acknowledging the racism within the franchise.

Rachel: I think this has just been a year of self reflection. And one of those things that you reflect on is what, how am I going to be on the right side of this when they write this in the history books? What am I affiliated with that is not on the right side of history? For me, it was The Bachelor. And I've always been vocal and I've even had some people call me out and say, oh, you're just jumping on the bandwagon that is 2020 with the Black Lives Matter movement. well, let me break down to you all the times I've called out the franchise. This isn't new for me. The difference is I have your attention now, which is pretty much reflective of the all of the entire Black Lives Matter movement that started in 2013. It didn't just start in 2020, but for some reason, everybody's paying attention to it now. So for some reason, people were actually now listening to me talk about the need for diversity in the franchise. And so for me, I did not want to continue to be affiliated with this franchise. I didn't want you to use me, you know, on your reunion, to come back on a season to talk to past leads. I didn't want to podcast. I didn't want to do anything that was going to promote this franchise. And I was going to be that one person of color that was - that you could use because you really couldn't pull from from any others. I didn't want that anymore. And so it was important for me to step up and say, like, I've had enough. Now that I have your attention, maybe you'll listen.

Caroline: Rachel wasn’t alone in feeling fed up with the franchise. Around the same she published that blog post, a group of fans began circulating a Bachelor Diversity Campaign petition, primarily calling for a Black Bachelor. Within a day, 50,000 Bachelor Nation fans had signed it. A number of alums including Rachel, Nick Viall and Jubilee Sharpe also added their names.

Cristen: Then on June 12, ABC made an unexpected announcement. A Black guy named Matt James was going to be the next Bachelor on its 25th season that will air in 2021.

Caroline: The news not only surprised Bachelor Nation, but also the soon-to-be Bachelor. Matt James was initially going to compete on the Bachelorette and had already started filming, but execs were like, “Oh hey, nevermind! We’re gonna go ahead and bump you to the Bachelor right now!!” Which, y’all, that is not how the process usually works …

Rachel: And I said I personally would have been more pleased for acknowledgment, a statement saying, we hear you, we've been on the wrong side of this and we're going to do better. But instead it was more of a knee-jerk reaction that was like, here's a black guy. I compared it to the two posting a black box on social media. That's exactly what it was. It was performative.

Cristen: OK, so The Bachelor was the first. And it's been around a number of seasons longer than The Bachelorette. However, it is obviously taken much longer to have them cast the first black bachelor. Why? Why do you think that it took so much longer for them to do that on The Bachelor vs. The Bachelor Bachelorette, like, what kind of dynamics do you think are going on there?

Rachel: I don't think the audience is going to be comfortable seeing a black man going to a white woman's home. Period. That's exactly why I think it is. It's totally different. So totally different dynamic for a black man to walk into a white home and say, hey, I I'm interested in marrying your daughter. It's not something that the audience is ready for. And the franchise knows that. And that's why it's taken so long.

Cristen: That audience is huge - close to 10 million viewers watched the last season of the Bachelor. It’s also mostly 25 to 45 year old suburban white ladies. Or as an ABC exec once put it to The New York Times: "that sweet spot of upscale women” …

Caroline: So on your podcast Higher Learning, you mentioned that you’d recently gotten a question about Bachelor Nation folks and the presidential election. So could you tell us a little more about that?

Rachel: So The Washington Post is doing a newsletter about The Bachelorette this season, and I was interviewed for it. And so the question was, if only Bachelor Nation was voting, who would they vote for? And I said, Trump, absolutely Trump, obviously. And if you don't believe me, I would refer you to my Instagram because most of my followers are Bachelor Nation. And look at the posts that I posted where I said, I'm voting for Biden and this is why. And look at the arguments that are going on. Look at the things that people are saying.

Caroline: Oh, we did. In addition to about 3 million comments saying “Trump 2020” you just see a lot of women whitesplaining to Rachel why Trump is actually great for Black Americans.

Rachel: The other thing is, honestly, I think if only the leads were voting, they would also vote for Trump. Trump would also win. That's not to say every lead. But, you know, there's a reason Trump won in 2016, and that's the silent majority. And if you look at what's happening in our country right now, the leads have been quite silent. OK? It's been a. It's been a silent majority going on in leads with Bachelor Nation as well. I get everybody's not as outspoken as me, and I understand that. But I think you pay attention to. I think if you pay attention, it's pretty obvious that, you know, Trump would win.

Cristen: You mentioned earlier your hope going into your season of The Bachelorette, that you that you would help diversify the audience as well. And do you feel like that happened because it kind of sounds like Bachelor Nation overlaps a lot with Trump Country.

Rachel: It does. I have a love hate relationship with Bachelor Nation. There's no secret there. Just give it some time, and I'm gonna say something else that pisses off people in Bachelor Nation. Facebook hates me and I and.

Caroline: Facebook hates everything.

Rachel: Yeah, they hate me. Which I, I, you know, I relish in that a little bit. You know, it's a certain it's a certain audience. But I am going to always be me. I will never try to fit what you would you want me to be. And I think one of the funniest things I see people say, I recently saw this on a post, is “my friends and I loved you when you were on The Bachelorette. And now, you know, you're just a bully and you're so mean,” and it's like it's so funny because I'm like the things that you loved about me on The Bachelorette, right, were that I was independent, I was strong and I was outspoken. And so I think that it's funny when what you praised me for, you're also using against me now. I'm too outspoken. I always have something to say. And, you know, at this point, it is what it is. I don't let Bachelor Nation define what I do, define my mood or define my success.

Cristen: Caroline, the moment I definitely knew that we HAD to talk to Rachel Lindsay was in June after she had this come to Jesus moment on her other podcast, Bachelor Happy Hour, with her co-host, Becca Kufrin. They were supposed to have kind of a general conversation about Black Lives Matter … until Becca’s fiance of 2 years, this guy named Garrett, made things personal.

Caroline: Quick backstory here: Becca starred in the 14th season of the Bachelorette, and Becca met Garrett when he was a contestant on the show.

Cristen: But like racist Lee on Rachel’s season, Garret also had a trail of bigoted social media posts. So no surprise, in response to the Black Lives Matter outpouring this spring, Garrett responded with a bunch of Blue Lives Matter bullshit all over his Twitter and Instagram.

Rachel: You know, it's crazy with that. We wanted to do an episode where, like, we both thought it would be great for a black woman and a white woman to have like a roundtable talk about everything going on in the country because we thought we could be an example to some of our listeners of how you can sit down and have these uncomfortable conversations with. And when you come from two different backgrounds. That's before Garrett even did what he did. We were going to sit down and do that. We wanted to be an example. Then Garret happened again.

Caroline: Rachel and Becca decided to address one particular Blue Lives Matter post head-on in their podcast, and the conversation took an emotional turn. Here’s a clip of Becca and Rachel on Bachelor Happy Hour. Our producer Nora condensed a bit for brevity and clarity

[CLIP: Rachel & Becca on Bachelor Happy Hour]

Garrett didn't wake up in 2020 and racism was just here. If you have chosen to not educate yourself or to learn to know what's going on, it is a choice...And Garrett is a prime example of what I'm saying is a problem in this society. And this is a question that I was going to ask you. But I. Because I hear you talk and it's more of. I don't understand. I don't understand why people are just now like this is what makes me emotional. Like, I don't understand why people are just now getting it. We have been going through so much in this country, and it's like, oh, today I'm going to amplify black voices. Today is blackout Tuesday. Today, I'm going to support and educate and read a book about black people and watch a movie. We've fucking been going through this shit. And I don't understand why when you say all his. It wasn't malicious or. Oh, his. You know, I'm just now understanding things. No. Like, you have to admit that you've made a choice to not see it. And my question to you originally was gonna be. Why is it that white people are just now acting like racism started in 2020? Why is that just now we have your attention? Like, I.I..I’ll just let you answer the question.

Becca: No and Rachel, not to be cheesy. I want to reach out and hug you, because I do hear you ...

Rachel: We were just so open with each other. I forgot we were even podcasting, which is probably the point where I really started breaking down because I was just getting so frustrated, not just about the conversation that we were having, but what was happening in in the country.

Caroline: A few weeks after the episode came out, Becca announced she was ending her engagement with Garrett. A lot of Bachelor Nation fans blamed Rachel.

Rachel: People were told me I should have just minded my own business. And I broke up Becca and Garrett, that lets me know everything I need to know. That's the kind of stuff that bothers me because it's just so sad when people want to say, I don't see color or racism doesn't exist or. And this is what I mean about being unapologetically black. Why can't you do things to be more like Teisha or Matt James, which you're basically telling me, why are you so vocal? Why don't you just tone it down a bit? Why don't you just water yourself down? That's what they were saying. He doesn't say anything like this. She doesn't say anything like this. It lets me know everything I need to know about this audience. And that is why I'm not trying to prove anything to them. I am just myself. I have a love hate relationship with Bachelor Nation. There's no secret there. And what I can't deny is my entire life changed because I was on The Bachelor from career, from love. I've experienced so many things that I hadn't prior to coming on the show. So a part of me has a deep love for Bachelor Nation. A part of me also knows that this can work and you can find your happiness. So I'm protective over it and I'm I'm indebted to it in a way. And it's not just because of the show. It's also because of the fans. And so I never want to completely turn my back on it because I understand what it's done for me, even if I stopped doing the podcast. I would still, in some way every blue moon do something with the franchise. I'm never going to just shut the door and turn my back on them. Let me take that back. There is something that could make me shut the door on Bachelor franchise, and that's if they don't get it together with this diversity element. So that's why I feel like I stay. I still stay close to them. But at the same time, I don't feel like I'm necessarily trying to prove anything to Bachelor nation. I am just myself.

Cristen: You can follow Rachel on Insta @therachellindsay or listen to her on one of her podcasts - Bachelor Happy Hour and Higher Learning.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly bonus episodes, listener advice and more fun at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week…

Avery Trufelman: sexting, especially now in this in this new normal, in these unprecedented times and this year of our Lord 2020. Like, whatever cliche you want to use to talk about this thing we're all going through, like sexting is sex, that's intimacy. It just means more now, like that used to be an appetizer. And now it is a form of entre, like it's not the meal itself, but it's like a microwavable meal

Cristen: We’re talking about sexting and dick pics with Avery Trufelman and Allison P. Davis from The Cut. We’ll get into what makes a good dic pic, how consent plays into sexting, and how to protect yourself and your nudie pics.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss this episode — or any episode this season!! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem

Caroline: Get Unladylike.