Transcript | Ep. 101: How Busy Philipps Does Her Best

Busy Philipps: Even if I feel the fear, I just say to myself, “Well, you have no choice. You have to, like, be fearless about this, because what would a random dude do?” Maybe we should get that put on bracelets. “What would a random dude do?” Like an unexceptional fuckin dude who went to some liberal arts school and like graduated fine, middle of his class, whatever, but like somehow has just continued to succeed and succeed and succeed because he walks into every room and is like, “Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I fucking succeed at this?”

[Theme music]

Cristen: Caroline, today's guest, Busy Philipps, is an actor, screenwriter, author, Instagram celeb, best friend of Michelle Williams — the actress not the singer — and our very first inductee into the Unladylike Hall of Fame.

Caroline: Oh, is she?

Cristen: She is! She is!

Caroline: OK I don’t remember this

Cristen: Well, I have documentation. On March 3, 2018, on the Unladylike Instagram, I posted a photo of Busy Philipps and Linda Cardellini from Freaks and Geeks, with the caption: “Formally nominating @busyphilipps into the Unladylike Hall of Fame. All those in favor say aye”

Caroline: OK, what moved you?

Cristen: I'm gonna guess I was rewatching Freaks & Geeks, one of my all-time fave TV shows? That was Busy Philipps's first television role -- she was 19 -- and her character, Kim Kelly, was this pitch-perfect tough girl you can't help but love.

[CLIP - Busy as Kim Kelly on Freaks & Geeks]
Kim Kelly: You’re just some rich kid who’s trying to piss off her parents. You think you can hang with these guys? You think that’s gonna make you cool?

Caroline: Um, Kim Kelly would totally wear a “What Would a Random Dude Do?” bracelet.

Cristen: Oh for sure. But Kim Kelly is just the tip of the Busy Philipps iceberg. What fascinates us the MOST about her is how at 41, she's totally reinvented her career on her own terms

Caroline: Yeah, in just the past few years, she wrote a New York Times best-selling memoir, This Will Only Hurt a Little; created her own late-night show; and most recently, launched a new podcast called Busy Philipps Is Doing Her Best.

Busy: I decided like that the only way to do anything is to just be like, “Yeah, of course, I can fucking do it. Why wouldn't I be able to do it?” Oh, I've never taken a class and, in you know, podcasting? I'll figure it out. You know. Oh, I've never written a book. How fucking hard can it be? You know. Turns out it was hard, but, you know. Oh, really? Like host a late night talk show four nights a week is like, so hard. It's so special that only men with, like, staffs of 20 can do it. And even then, it's so hard. By the way, it wasn't that fucking hard. I'm just here to tell you, I wasn't that tired. I still had two kids that I put to bed at night and like mom-ed. And, you know, wasn't that fucking hard.

Caroline: So today, we’re talking with Busy about what it was like coming up in the outrageously sexist Hollywood of the early 2000s, how she gave up on giving in to the industry, and why trying her best is good enough.

[Stinger]

Cristen: We caught up with Busy from her home in LA where she lives with her screenwriter husband, Marc, and their two daughters, Cricket and Birdie. It was Birdie’s first day of remote school, and California was literally on fire! So we kicked off with a very loaded question

Caroline: How are you doing?

Busy: I'm OK. I had a - I mean, I had like a minor break down this morning at 6:30 in the morning. I just like I don't know about you guys, like I've felt all over the last six months that it ebbs and flows. Right. Like, I have weeks or days where I feel like, OK, this is OK. The world - We can do this like positive hope, move forward with intention and hope and things are going to be OK. And I'm motivated person who knows how to like do shit. And then I, like, hit a wall. And my state is currently burning to the ground and it is like feels apocalyptic. I haven't stopped coughing for days, and it's not covid because I got tested, and I'm just like a lot, you know, I'm trying to prepare our kids for Zoom school. And I just I don't know it's a lot, it's a lot guys, how are you?

Cristen: It's beyond a lot I. Feel like we need a new word for a lot in 2020.

Busy: I'm kind of with you on that. Like. It's overwhelming. It is overwhelming.

Caroline: Stars, they're just like us!

Cristen: Right?! I mean, sort of. To a point. Busy has worked in Hollywood for over 20 years. Like we mentioned, she landed her first TV role on Freaks & Geeks at 19, but the show was canceled after one season in 2000.

Caroline: That initially steered her into primetime dramas like Dawson’s Creek. Then, she really started to shine as a comedic actor with six seasons on the sitcom Cougar Town and a starring role in the Wayans Brothers movie, White Chicks.

Cristen: But in late 2016, Busy experienced a totally unexpected breakout playing …. herself. She was an early adopter of Instagram stories, and her addictive posts have won her more than 2 million followers - which we’ll get into more later.

Caroline: From teen actress ... to IG stories icon ... to author and talk show host. The woman is a multi hyphenate! Like the name of her new podcast says, Busy Phillips is doing her best.

Busy: That's like a cornerstone of my personality is is trying, you know, like I'm a person who's always tried really hard. And I think that I've always just been incredibly driven to do to be the best, you know. And I think that, like previously like when I was younger, I just I was only interested in being the best. And then in the last several years, certainly, and probably maybe the last decade I think I realized that just doing my best is good enough. I might not be the best at everything. But I can try to do my best.

Cristen: Where do you think that need to be the best came from?

Busy: Well, I mean, like, I don't know. Right. But, I mean, I wrote a whole fucking book about it. I think, you know, I mean, I think and It like obviously has to do with, like, a deep need and desire for attention and to be seen and to have like a moment for myself because to take up space, because I felt in my home life that there wasn't a lot of space left for me there. And whether or not that was even true. Who fucking knows? I'm a mom now. I'm sure my girls are going to talk about shit in therapy. I'm going to be like, what are you talking about? That's not. I don't. That's not true to the experience at all. But that's what I felt.

Caroline: Busy grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona. She was always a little performer, and by middle school, her sights were set on acting. It was just a matter of getting through school and hightailing it to Los Angeles ... but her ADHD made that a challenge.

Busy: Then you just got kind of like labeled like, oh, she's just not a great student. But I was, you know, reading like my mom's book club books. And I was clearly smart. I just had a lot of, you know, if I wasn't interested in it, basically, I wasn't going to commit to doing the work and putting the time in. But the things that I was interested in, you know, like I decided freshman year I was like, well, maybe I should do speech and debate. They had it at my school, and I won State like my first year freshman year doing it. I was like, I'm only gonna do it if I can be number one at it. And like as a freshman winning state in speech and debate was it was a big fucking deal. And then I quit because I was like, well, I did it.

Cristen: But as all that was happening at school, Busy was also going through an intense time in her personal life. As she shares in her memoir, she was sexually assaulted when she was 14. A year later, at 15, her boyfriend got her pregnant, and Busy had an abortion.

Busy: I had, you know, experienced my own trauma, my own sexual trauma and was like dying inside and didn't know how to deal with it. And, you know, was had no outlet and didn't even know how to voice it or what it even was. Because, like culturally like early 90s vibes, guys, like Monica Lewinsky was like publicly shamed and called a slut like, you know, she was at fault for whatever happened between her and Bill Clinton. Like the messages that were just constantly being given to you as a young woman were that, first of all, anything that happens to you or your body is on you. And secondly, that like there's so much shame about it and about what sexuality means, like what your body, what your vagina and what bleeding, all of it was just like for me, shrouded in mystery and shame.

Cristen: Well one thing that strikes me is how unwavering your acting ambition was amid all this trauma. So why do you think you were able to maintain that focus even after, like a really tumultuous time?

Busy: It's the thing that so many successful people do. Right. And so many successful people have like big T trauma, I think. I know. I mean, whatever. I fucking know. And it's not just in the entertainment industry, but it's like that trick that you do when you've gone through trauma, which is that like, OK, this doesn't make sense. This sucks. But if I can do X, then it will all like, make it worthwhile. Do you know what I mean? And so I think for me, going through those traumas, like every my resolve just got so deepened that the only way I could make any of this make sense is if then I go and achieve this thing that's like nearly fucking impossible that no one gets to do. And I'm gonna do it like this is the timeline. I'm going to move to L.A. I'm going to go to two years of college and then I'm gonna be on TV. And I moved to L.A. and I went to two years of college. And the second semester, sophomore year, I got the pilot of Freaks and Geeks. And then I left school and was on TV. And then of course, you're like, well, that didn't make me feel better. Oh fuck, that didn't work. Oh, I know why it didn't work because I'm not a movie star. And the and the show was like a hit. OK. OK, so then I'm like, get cast on literally the biggest teen drama of like, you know, the decade - Dawson's Creek - at the time and then. And I'm still miserable, oh no. Oh no. it's a little bit of a you know, I mean it's a trick, right. It's a trick. And you have to like at some point you come to terms with the fact or you don't. Some people never do. You see those people that there's no amount of accomplishments or success that will heal you. You have to just put the work in and do it for yourself because no amount of, like, positive fan interactions on Instagram will ever fix what was, like, broken in me when I was 14 and 15, and younger.

Caroline: When we come back, Busy spills why Dawson’s Creek was so miserable and takes us back to the hellish Hollywood sexism of the low-rise jeans era.

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Busy Philipps.

[Dawson’s Creek theme song]

Cristen: Yesss take me back, Paula Cole! Busy played Katie Holmes’ wild-child college roommate, Audrey Liddell. And in case y'all can't tell from the THRILL in my voice, I was a total Dawson-head. I secretly watched it because it was waaay too sexy for my parents’ liking. And I still remember how polarizing of a character Audrey was. Like, she was everything girls at that time weren’t supposed to be -- loud, loose and not a size 2.

Busy: Like when I got Dawson's Creek and I was on the WB, like, I remember feeling like, oh, God, this sucks. Like, I don't have that WB body because I was really body shamed when I was on on that show. And it was, you know, really brutal.

Caroline: Body shamed by people you were actually working with and for or just like.

Busy: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not like the you know, the head executive comes to you and says, like, you need to drop 15 and like, it's not it's not 1943 you know, in the studio system, it's modern day when they know they can't really say that to you. So it like gets messaged in all these other very bizarre ways. Like, I had this I had this experience with a with a costume person who was just sort of all constantly dropping hints about things I could be doing to change my diet or to work out work I hadn't work I didn't work out at that point. I was twenty one years old. I was like drinking gallons of red wine and like eating bread and, you know, living my life. My early 20s, like, gluttonous life and. Yeah. And I remember her saying something like, oh, I was driving to work. And I just I saw Katie out there running around that big circle out on the island. Yeah. She runs to two to five miles at least every day. It's so great. So, yeah, because that's fucking normal for a twenty two year old to do like, you know, and maybe it is. I don't know guys. Maybe it is. It wasn't normal for me.

Cristen: What was normal though, was toxic masculinity behind the scenes. Busy's written about seeing Harvey Weinstein attempt to sweet talk Kirsten Dunst. And Busy admits that if the opportunity had come up, she wouldn't have thought twice about taking a meeting in his hotel room.

Caroline: Well, in your memoir, you write, “I was the girl who can work within the incredibly sexist system that was set up, a girl who could take it.” So speaking about this business, like tell us more about that girl, and why did she take it at the time?

Busy: Well, messages were very clear almost from the beginning that you know, women were expendable in this industry, especially - in all industries l guess? And you you didn't want to be either person causing issues, you know, because the women, the cause issues got gone real quick. Also it's like the majority of the people working in the positions of the creative power. And then also executive power were men. And, you know, it was like through that lens that the world was molded. And and so then when you get the part, you're like, well, I'm not going to be the one that calls out the like guy on set who, like, has joked about masturbating to me, you know. And everybody laughed. Like, I'm just gonna be like, yeah. All right. You take it easy then you know, because that's how I'm going to keep my fucking job.

Caroline: For years, standing up for herself and other women felt impossible.

Cristen: For example, in her memoir, she specifically calls out James Franco, her Freaks and Geeks costar. She said he was a “fucking bully” for the way he acted and treated her on set — including throwing her to the ground in the middle of shooting. It knocked the wind out of her, and she felt humiliated. But the fact that he barely got a slap on the wrist for laying hands on her confirmed that the Hollywood boys’ club protects its own.

Caroline: Well, these days, you you seem to be really unafraid to name names of shitty dudes.

Busy: Who cares? Who gives a fuck?

Caroline: Well, what changed, like..you?

Busy: I don't care about working, Caroline. I don't give a fuck abut working. I don't want to be an actor. I do want to be. I don't wanna have, like, three lines as like the girlfriend who's kind of sarcastic. You know, like, I don't care. So what. And people should, like, behave better. You know, it's that Ann Lamott quote, if people wanted you to write about them in a nicer way, they should've fucking behaved better. I'm done I'm like, so I have no patience for it. You know, like, I think everyone should name names. I I'm like, that's the only way shit changes. And you've seen that in practice in the last several years. Right.

Cristen: Oh yeah. Getting fired up over here. But like so but does it ever does it, though? I mean, your husband is also in the biz. I'm really sorry I just said the biz,

Busy: I love that you said it.

Cristen: It feels very Georgia of me to phrase it that way.

Busy: I love it

Cristen: But does it does it ever feel risky beyond like sure for you, you don't give a fuck about, like, getting an acting job, but like. Does it ever feel risky?

Busy: I don't know. I think it depends on what you're saying. And if what you're saying is truthful or not. And if what you're saying is truthful, then. And people in the business know it. Yeah. I mean, certainly there are gonna be some people that are like, eesh, but do I want to work with those people? Do I want to work for those people? And my husband and his writing partner who's a woman and my husband is a feminist. Does he want to work for those people? No. Like why would I want to work for anyone that supports toxic masculinity? And why would my husband want to do that? So I guess no, is the answer. I'm not. It doesn't feel risky to me because it's like natural selection, I suppose. And also, I'm not a liar. So there's that.

Caroline: Busy can never not be Busy. And it's that offscreen authenticity that catapulted her into an unexpected life pivot to Instagram Stories.

Cristen: This was back in November 2016. Busy had been cast in HBO’s Vice Principals and was pumped for that. But everything else around her looked bleak. She was now a working mother with two small children. Her marriage had hit a rough patch. Trump got elected. Long story short, Busy was depressed.

Caroline: What was it that drew you to the Instagram story? Because I was what you call a like a mega-late adopter. It was like the latest adopter of Instagram stories. I was an old lady about it. So what clicked for you?

Busy: Well, it was it was a confluence of circumstances, certainly. And like, yeah it was like the first week it started basically that I started doing it because it was so early. I didn't I hadn't seen I mean, I'd watched some people's stories and I was like, this is weird I don't know what these people are doing. And I just saw it as an opportunity to do what I've done every day of my goddamn life, which is my own reality show in my own head, you know. And so since I was a child. And so I don’t know I like I just found it really interesting, and I was bored and out of work and depressed and I just wanted something to do, I guess.

Cristen: Stories became a way for Busy to embrace her performer instincts, soothe her anxiety and make something for herself.

Caroline: What she made was hilarious, relatable and intimate. Her follower count started soaring, and she even got critical acclaim.

Cristen: In 2017, the New Yorker raved, “she has transformed her daily life as a struggling actor and L.A. mother into an addictive sitcom - imagine “I Love Lucy” mixed with a modern life-style guru.”

Cristen: Did it feel like you were doing your best at Instagram stories because you know, you get this New Yorker profile in 2017, which I still remember bookmarking. So I was like, oh shit. What's going on here.

Busy: Well, yeah, that was a huge. Yeah, that was a huge fucking deal. Yeah. I mean, that felt like holy shit. Like what is this? In the beginning, like I remember hearing from a few friends, like, “What are you doing. What are you doing on that. It seems so weird. I don't. Are you sure that that's such a good idea? Like, aren't you going to, like, kind of ruin your ability to, you know, play roles, play parts now that you're just being yourself?” And of course now everybody is like, “How the fuck do I do that and make money at it, will you tell me?” Right. But, you know, once. But then, like, slowly, I had a couple of friends who were like directors and writers who, you know, at dinner parties, or whatever that were like “I’m kind of obsessed with your Instagram stories. And like I was talking to this, like, studio executive and she was like, she never misses them. And, you know, this person is the head of the studios, like, blah, blah.” And I was like, this is weird. This is really weird. And I couldn't I sort of because I sometimes don't trust myself, you know. And I felt like I had been - I always have felt like an outsider no matter what. And so I so I was always afraid that people were watching it inside the industry as like what? Ew. What a joke. How sad. And I realized that that wasn't the case. It was like legitimately connecting with people on a real level, but also, in a way that was new at the time, that people had it like kind of explored as much.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, Busy makes a triumphant return to television - this time on late-night.

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere.

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Busy Philipps.

Cristen: Thanks to the wild success of her Instagram stories, folks in the industry started taking note … folks like Tina Fey and her producing partner, Eric O’Ryan.

Caroline: Eric met with Busy to talk about how they could use her Instagram success to launch a new project.

Busy: He was like, we have to think of what to do. You need to do something. Let's like build something around you. Let's do a show, blah blah blah. I was like, I want to do that. And I called him a couple months later and was like, I want to do a late night talk show. And he's like, well, we've never done that. But I'll I'll mention it to Tina. And then like two weeks later, she was on the phone with the head of E! He said that. She said what she said. And then they're like, great, done essentially.

Cristen: But there were still details to sort out. Execs wanted to give the show one night a week, but Busy really wanted to do it 4 nights/week..just like the boys in late-night.

Busy: Part of it reverted back to my like, want to be the best thing. I just was like, what the fuck, guys? There needs to be at least one woman who gets a late night daily talk show. That was the impetus behind it was truly just like from a an equality standpoint…Because like any woman who does get any late night show at this point, they're like. And one night a week, girl, you're gonna kill it. You you're just like, what the fuck. Like why do all these men get to be on the air four nights a week giving their topical takes on the day's events. And like, you know, they're heartfelt speeches when something in the news, like personally affects them. And then like a lady gets one night a week, you know, what the fuck is that? So so I just was so like, it's that or nothing.

Caroline: Ultimately, the execs got onboard. And they gave Busy exactly what she wanted.

Busy: They really were like, look, we know it's a marathon, not a sprint. We're in it for the long haul. We want to, but we need to look forward to building what the new E is. Like we know the Kardashians are gonna be coming to an end at some point, like we want E to be a thing again. We look at what Bravo has been able to do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, OK, this all makes sense, right? Like, this all tracks. Sure. This feels like the place. And so we like, just dove dove in.

Cristen: Busy Tonight debuted on E! in October of 2018, with Tina Fey executive producing. And the entire production and writing staff were women.

[CLIP - Busy Tonight promo]

Caroline: The show’s vibe was very Busy. The set looked like an apartment, complete with a cozy couch. Busy would curl up on it in long, cozy dresses and greet her guests with cocktails. It felt like you were watching her hang out with her best friends ... who just so happened to be Hollywood celebs.

Cristen: But just a few months later … E pulled the plug. Busy’s last show aired in May 2019.

Busy: OK. I'm just gonna be totally honest, if I had been fucking smart, I would have like, done a daytime talk show somewhere, you know, like a syndicated daytime talk show. And I could have probably like I could probably still be doing it, probably because that's the space that, like networks and studios are like comfortable with women being and then and having it be different. These networks and studios and like our fucking patriarchal society feels comfortable putting women so that like when you're home ironing, I guess you have something to watch. And, you know, and late night is like weirdly just fuckin reserved for these men I guess, and to be totally frank is that the men are just given a longer fucking runway. They just are they are given the marathon. Conan failed for years. Seth's show was a mess in the beginning. I don't even know. Jimmy Kimmel had girls on trampolines or something. I don't even fucking know. Like you know, men are given shot after shot after shot to fail and then. And still. And yet. And still they can - they are allowed to continue on. And women are like. And by the way, my show was not fucking canceled because it wasn't successful. Like the failure of my show I do not own. Like it is on them. I truly believe that. And I don't. I don't give a fuck at this point, but like. We got that shit up and running and in a place that was like real good at the end. That was like less than six months we were able to do that. We were able to find what the show was and how it worked and how it connected and where it lived and provide the thing for our celebrity guests that I always wanted to do, which was like give them a nice place to come and sell the shit they have to sell, and talk about things that were happening in the news that impacted me as a woman and make an impact in that way. And like it being canceled was truly shocking when it happened. But there was so much bullshit that like no one had ever let us in on because we're women. And like business stuff. Like, they had, like, you know, some huge hole in their budget because they, you know, spent $7 billion on the Kardashians. It just wasn't the right place. Like, you know, I was constantly being noted about, like touching my hair. I don’t fucking know. And like everything was sort of ingrained with a level of hatred for women over there.

Cristen: Busy got a big offer to move the show to a new platform, which she definitely considered … until she caught whiff of some bullshit

Busy: I was getting these emails about this deal that the streaming service, app, whatever the fuck new, whatever it is. Wanted to offer that they had on a table and what blah blah blah blah blah, I was sitting there I was reading it. Marc was next to me, the girls were together and Mark was like, I'm reading it, and I'm like no no no this is all wrong. I'm not doing this again. I'm fucking doing this again. Not working for a bunch of dudes who are gonna define what success is to me and aren't going to tell me like 90 percent of the information that would help me make better choices in terms of how we spend our budgets and what we do and where we're going and the future. Like this is just more of the same

Caroline: Busy immediately called her creative partner Cassie St. Onge.

Busy: And I was like, I have a I have a crazy thing to say to you. And I know that you want to work and, like, make money, but we shouldn't do this. Like, this is bad. We need to do our own thing. We need to figure this the fuck out ourselves because it's over. I'm not working for anyone anymore in this way. And she was like, I really trust your gut. You kind of when you're when you feel this certain about something, you haven't been wrong yet. Ok

Cristen: So, they canceled their meetings and got to work. They decided they wanted to make TV shows, but this time on their own terms. They also sold a podcast that was going to be a behind-the-scenes look at them making that happen

Caroline: Then COVID happened, which derailed any TV plans. But always game for a pivot, Busy decided to move forward with the podcast anyway. She and Cassie shifted the focus to a familiar topic: starting over.

Busy: I think there's some value in that in talking to people about this, not just this time, but, you know, pivots in your life and, you know, even devastating ones, things that feel devastating, like losing a job or a death, even, how you can pivot from those things into a different place. It's not always, by the way, it's not always better like I’m just gonna be totally honest, but it's worthwhile to hear the stories and to engage because I think it makes us all feel just like a little bit less alone, you know. And I know that, like, the feedback that we've had from the podcast so far is that people are really responding to that element of it. Of just feeling like that we're all kind of going through it, you know, together, even though you might be having a very different experience than me, your closet looks very different than mine.

Cristen: Considering all of these events, both your personal and professional, and as you were talking about, just like the world at large and everything, everything happening on so many levels. Has that changed how you are thinking of doing your best and what that means for you?

Busy: Well, I’m still working on it. If I’m just going to be honest. I’m still really, really hard on myself. And I don't think that that's a unique trait for especially a woman to have. But I think I would like to have more ease in a lot of ways and and put less pressure on myself, there are certainly, you know, I think that that's that is that they, like men, often are so content at being just fine at anything. And. I'm not saying I want to be just fine. Like, I always want to be kind of exceptional everything but, I would like to, like, be able to give myself more of a break, you know, but that's between me and my therapist.

Caroline: Here here. You're talking to two fellow therapized women.

Busy: Yeah, yeah.

Cristen: You can find Busy on Insta @busyphilipps or listen to her podcast Busy Philipps Is Doing Her Best wherever you listen to podcasts. Plus, Busy has just joined the cast of Girls5eva, an original series for Peacock, so keep your eyes peeled for that show.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly bonus episodes, listener advice and more fun at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week…we’re talking to Rachel Lindsay the first Black Bachelorette about representation in the Bachelor franchise, why she almost broke up with Bachelor Nation, and why it’s taken so long for there to be a Black Bachelor.

Rachel Lindsay: I don't think the audience is going to be comfortable seeing a black man going to a white woman's home. Period. That's exactly why I think it is. I think it is more accepting for a black woman because, you know, So it’s a totally different dynamic for a black man to walk into a white home and say, hey, I I'm interested in marrying your daughter. It's not something that the audience is ready for. And the franchise knows that. And that's why it's taken so long.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss this episode — or any episode this season!! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

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