Transcript | Ep. 103: How to Sext

Avery: It's so funny, like when talking to people about what turns them on in dick pics. It's really like anything but the dick. They’re like cool plants. Nice decor. Like, I love the books. Like, go for it. Include that shit.

Caroline: That dick looks educated.

Cristen: It’s wearing a little cap and gown, like a graduate. Scholarly dick.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Caroline, you and I know each other pretty well, wouldn’t you say?

Caroline: For sure yes

Cristen: And it’s always kind of exciting to learn a new thing about an old friend, and I have been very excited to discover something new about you during these quarantimes …

Caroline: Happy to help, yep

Cristen: I learned that you’re a bold ass unlady on Facetime!

Caroline: So I’ve heard, ahh OK. So listeners, I met my now-boyfriend in May on a dating app, and social-distancing rules definitely shaped how we got to know each other — like, our first few dates were purely over video chat. We would watch movies together, we talked for hours, and as Cristen just alluded to, a couple dates in, we got naked on Facetime

Cristen: You Facetime fucked! Pew pew pew! And y’all I was VERY impressed when Caroline told me about it because I can barely take a flattering selfie, and so like, how do you find your angles … when you’re in motion??

Caroline: Oh god, OK I’m not gonna TMI here but the angles issue is REAL, and it is distracting. But honestly what surprised me the most was how some of my friends reacted when I told them about it.

Cristen: Go on

Caroline: They were just horrified at the idea of getting full-on, live-action naked with someone I hadn't even met in person yet. The words that I kept hearing were "awkward" and "omg I could never"

Cristen: Well, those kinds of reactions are part of why we’ve wanted to devote an Unladylike episode to sexting. Even though statistically, most adults have done it, and it is totally normal, the cultural conversations around it are pretty sext-negative, y’know? Like, what about the youths? What about quote unquote “revenge porn”??

Caroline: Yeah, which are totally valid questions, sure. But 2020 has been a boom time for sexting, not just for me. Like, folks are quarantined, horny and unable to just go out and get laid.

Avery: Sexting, especially now in this in this new normal, in these unprecedented times in this year of our Lord 2020, like, whatever cliche you want to use to talk about this thing we're all going through, like sexting is sex, that's intimacy.

Cristen: Our first guest, Avery Trufelman, is host of the podcast The Cut.

Avery: It just means more now. Like that used to be an appetizer. And now it is a form of entree, like it's not the meal itself, but it's like a microwavable meal. And sex itself can also be really bad. And sexting, like sex, I think depends on the willingness of your partner and your chemistry. So, yeah. You can have horrible experiences. You can have traumatic experiences. You can have awesome experiences. So it's like hard to put it on a scale.

Caroline: The quality of those “microwave meals” does vary, but we don’t really talk about it. So Avery decided to find out more about their nutritional value, so to speak, on an episode of The Cut called “The Joy of Sext.”

Cristen: Today on Unladylike, Avery is gonna share what she learned and how it's influenced her personal sexting perspective. Then we’ll hear from a real thirst-trap expert.

Allison: I'm like, fuck, yes. Majority fuck, yes. So what is that, ike a 9 on the fuck yes scale. I do love receiving dick pics and I love soliciting them because I think it's fun to see, like, compositions of desire and to think about a person like making this image just to titillate me. How much fun.

Cristen: Allison P Davis - who also appeared on that episode of The Cut - is a New York Magazine features writer — and I kid you not, Caroline, her perspective on nudes is so enthusiastic, she has given me a newfound appreciation even for sloppy dick pics!

Caroline: So today, we’re finding out what happens when you get sext-positive?

[Stinger]

Cristen: Avery Trufelman has been thinking a lot about sexting lately. See, back in the early days of COVID lockdown, Avery had been text flirting back and forth with a guy she knows from out of town. Then it happened.

Avery: One morning he just sent me a picture of his penis. Eight in the morning. This is not hot. It's just kind of like your morning penis. And this is someone who I was, like, otherwise attracted to, you know, if if he had, like, sent it to me, ooh like late at night or like the lighting was really good or, you know, like he was in it, like if his face was in it, like the things that I that I like him for, you know, like there was a scene around, like some give me something to latch on to, but I didn't know how to respond. I literally texted back a very hesitant ha ha ha ha. And he responded, “That's not the reaction I was expecting.” And then that led me down this rabbit hole like, well, what is - What do I do?

Cristen: the 8 a.m. unexpected dick pic. it's such an imposition because it's like. It's a set. It's a sense that I've received before of like, do you expect me to drop everything I'm doing right now trying to just get on with my day and perform? Like, just give me a heads up maybe, and that could be easier. But but it then feels like your response of, like, what do I do? What do I do with this?

Avery: Right. And it was this moment is like, oh, no, this is about, you know, like you're not even. I don't even know if you're expecting anything. I mean, you're just like, ah, the gift of my penis. Like you have not, you are not thinking about how this will be received. Which unfortunately, I think is how a lot of cis men think about sex in general. Like not really thinking about their partner’s pleasure. Which is a shame because it makes sex so much better.

Caroline: Thinking about the other person’s pleasure can also elevate a basic-bitch crotch shot to a nude.

Avery: So I feel like a nude has effort in it. Like you fuckin turned on a softer light. You did like a photo shoot a little. You know, you thought about your body placement. You tried to make it interesting. You tried to imagine the person viewing you. That's a that's a nude. It's like thinking about making an image that's pleasing and beautiful and sexy and or fun or weird, just like trying to say something. You can take a thoughtful picture with a penis in it, like thinking, trying to make it hot. But it's vulnerable. You know, I understand why there's hesitancy to do that, because when you try and when you put your heart on your sleeve and you put yourself out there, you know, it's like. Intimate texting is risky enough already. There's already like, oh, my God. When will they respond? So, you know, I get it. It's like a very vulnerable thing to do.

Caroline: And that is true across genders and sexual orientations..

Avery: And also, I think when I started talking about it with friends, the thing I kept hearing was like, oh, that gay men know how to do it. And then talking with people who use Grinder, they're like, nope, no, no one knows how to do it. Like, no people. A lot of people with penises do not know how to take pictures of them. But I want to correct that statement. Because I also heard from a lot of trans women who were like, listen, I have a penis and I've been objectified my whole life. Like, I do know, you know, so it's hard because like whenever you talk about gender. I also wanted to include gender queer and gender nonconforming people who have penises. So it's hard.

Cristen: How does consent kind of shape the reception of a nude versus dick pic? Because I feel like dick pic connotes unsolicited.

Avery: Yeah, I think it does. And, you know, it's weird, it reminds me of being at a at a dance in middle school when the custom was that, like, boys would just come up behind you and start, like pressing themselves against you and you're supposed to grind on them, you know, like that was without consent, without, like, hi, you know, and you couldn't even see who they were. But um I think if there's, like, consent in a way that you ask for it, that's not like it doesn't have to be weird. Don't think you've to be like. “Excuse me. I would like to send you a dick pic.” Like you can lead up to it in like a fun, sexy way by being like, you know, hey. I am thinking you, you. Can I show you something you know or like. I took these really like these pictures of myself that I think are kind of hot. Can I show them to you? Like that is that might sound dorky, but it's way hotter than just like blah showing the thing. So I don't know. And I think, again, in this way, that, like dick pics, that sexting is like sex. Like consent just makes everything better for everyone. You got to wonder, like, are they into it. Are they not? Or like, why are they doing this? Why aren't they doing that? Just like we're so scared to talk about these things. And we have to! We have like just in order to treat each other better.

Caroline: So in the before times, before COVID, when it comes to online dating, there were just like all these rules — you know like, don’t wait too long to meet in person! But now, we’re on our like, what, 15th wave in the country of covid.

Avery: Oh. Jeez.

Caroline: How do you think that intersects with the timeline of, like face time interaction and sexting and dating?

Avery: I feel like it's a cool opportunity to not make rules like it's so easy to shame people and be like there's an etiquette, you have to go on like three dates and then you can sleep together, you know, and. I feel like that's kind of. That's why sexting is this interesting playground to talk about consent. I feel like the main - the reason that we had all these rules, these ways of being that were so codified because we didn't want to talk to each other. We're just like this is the unspoken rule, like after three dates. Then we will have sex or whatever the rule. Or like, no kissing on the first date. But I mean, that's a really old rule. But whatever there are like these customs that were sort of agreed upon so that we didn't have to talk about it. And I think the interesting thing is we have to talk about everything now. So if you're meeting someone on Zoom, you could ask them that night if they want to see a nude, you know? As long as they're game, it's wherever they're at. And I feel like we all just need to practice getting comfortable asking and saying no and doing both things like really nicely and with care and politely so we can all meet each other where we're at. But it's hard and it's weird and Zoom is weird. I feel like we will all see this winter. But I’m scared. I don't know.

Caroline: Well did reporting out all this out change anything about your personal perception of dick pics or nudes?

Avery: Yeah, it made me really want to take more. I was talking to my friend about this. And she started sending me these videos that she sends to her Tinder lovers who she was talking to remotely. And they were like hot, but they were weird. There were no body parts in them. There's this video of her, like elegantly grazing a tulip with her finger. I was like, woah, that's so hot. I mean, basically, like, foreplay was like, why is there no like text foreplay. We started trading these weird pictures back and forth. Was, oh, I like I pose this picture that was just my torso and I really liked it. It was like twisted in this weird way. And I don't know, just like trying things out with a friend was really fun and making it kind of collaborative. Although now that I think about it this way, it's like it almost reminds me of like kids practicing kissing. But it's like fun. It was really fun. So it was just this interesting moment of like, oh, this is what it's sexting could be. Why aren't we doing this?

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, New York Magazine writer Allison P Davis is gonna help us get sext positive and school us on the fine art of dick pic composition.

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere!

[Stinger]

Cristen: Caroline, I’ve got a nerd alert for you. When I was background researching for this episode, I was thrilled to discover that sexting is getting some of the scholarly attention it deserves. May I share some of my favorite study titles I came across?

Caroline: Please

Cristen: OK, I can’t decide which is better, here we go: This is from the Journal of Gender Studies: “C’mon, No One Wants a Dick Pic’: Exploring the cultural framings of the ‘Dick Pic’ in contemporary online publics.” Or from the Journal of Sex Research: “I’ll Show You Mine so You’ll Show Me Yours: Motivations and Personality Variables in Photographic Exhibitionism”

Caroline: I prefer #1, but #2 sure is saucy! OK, well, our next guest, Allison P. Davis, is also something of a dick pic scholar. She's a New York Magazine writer who really has her finger on the pulse of sexting, big dick energy and horny culture at large.

Cristen: So um we have an icebreaker we don't typically ask our unladylike guests, but when was the last time you received a dick pic?

Allison: Oh, I'm so glad you asked because it was like two days ago. And that's what I like. If you hadn't. If you'd asked me this like six months ago, I would have been like, oh, forever. I have to keep showing my friends very old dick pics and trotting them out like they're new and exciting, but no. Two days ago I received one.

Cristen: Fresh hot dick pic.

Allison: Hot and fresh. Yes.

Cristen: God the just I hadn't even considered the idea of an old an old dick pic. Just a dusty old dick pick. Do you care to share any any details? Were you - were you pleased to receive this dick pic?

Allison: You know, it's interesting. I really I like this guy and we're like covid smash buddies. So the thing about the covid smash buddy system is you kind of have to be like I was. I went on a group trip with a group of friends, but because that was a bigger than usual sort of radius of person, we aren't going to hang out for a little bit just to make sure everyone stays covid free. So we were exchanging photos to be like, oh, sex, I'm back, but we can't see each other. La la la. And I like him a lot. And I, I mean, like, I've slept with him in person. So I know that his. You know, he's got like a decent sized. He just doesn't photograph well. I am happy with it because I know and like him. But I think that I want to give him some pointers because he didn't do a very good job.

Cristen: Could you share what what tips you might be offering him about sort of a portraiture.

Allison: Yes. The way you chopped off his own head was sort of weird. So it was like, like below the clavicle. That was a little disturbing. And I was also like, look, I know your face. I look at I see your face. So I don't know why you're hiding your face from me. And so it was only just like below the clavicle to the to the wiener. And then that was it. So was it a really bad crop, basically. And I was like, why are you trying to fool me? I know what I look. I know what size your penis is. I don't know why you're doing this weird sort of like handhold thing to disguise the length of it. Also his sheet, his bed was, like, really unmade. But, you know, make the bed, don't have the awkward body crop that makes you look with your disembodied like lifeguard training torso. And I don't know like, just be confident with the package you have, no deceptive tricks. I hope he doesn’t listen to this. I’m thinking of this poor guy.

Caroline: But so you like this guy a lot. So does that make receiving a subpar dick pic better?

Allison: I think I'll I'll let it pass in a way that I probably wouldn't if it was like somebody I didn't already have a sexual attraction to. Just because I put so much effort into the nudes that I send people that if I feel like I'm doing an exchange with somebody that I don't really have that much attachment to, and they put in very little effort. It's like a big turnoff, you know. You should match effort at the very least. But, yeah, for him, like the subparness, it's just it'll be a nice learning convers-. It's a teachable moment. That's what they call it. It's a teachable moment.

Cristen: Yeah. I mean, at the very least, make your bed. That's not too much to ask.

Allison: Make the bed! We're grown up, like make the bed.

Caroline: Why do you like getting them?

Allison: Well, for me, it really is about like just like knowing it turned someone on, like, I never want a dick pic that's like let me just check out your junk and make sure that's, like, big enough for me or whatever. But I do think some people do, and that's more than fine. And like, if you're a size queen, like, yeah, check out the goods before they arrive at your door. But for me, it's really about like compositions of desire. And I want to know that like you thinking about me or the thing that I'm saying to you or or whatever is like or your desire to have sex with me is making you want to share a picture of your hard, your hard, dick, you know. So for me, it really is about I like knowing that you're turned on because then it turns me on, too. Also, there's some amount of like power to when I request it. And that's fun. It's always like hot to be in control. Expressing your own desires.

Cristen: We’re gonna take a quick break

Caroline: When we come back, Allison shares how taking nudes has improved her relationship status with her own body.

Cristen: Stick around

[Stinger]

Cristen: We’re back with Allison P. Davis, writer, dick-pic connoisseur and nude selfie specialist.

Caroline: Do you think that. Well, A, how do you think that, like sexting and digital sex norms have changed during the pandemic? And B, do you think that those changes will stick around?

Allison: I think the pandemic has sort of freed us from any sort of end game or expectation other than to like have a person to communicate with. And so the communication has felt richer and more deeper and like there's more of a willingness to engage with intimacy because it's - was for some time the primary way of talking to someone or like getting to know someone or just like being with somebody was you know through your phone. I don't know if the willingness to to be intimate and to sort of like have these exchanges that are deeper is going to last once you can immediately go out and meet somebody. Like, I do think that people are just doing this because we can't really do anything else. But in the meantime I think it's it's helping people set better boundaries and it's helping people learn how to express themselves better.

Cristen: Has your sexting behavior changed at all this year?

Allison: Yeah, I used to be really shy about sending nudes of myself, especially because, like, bodies change in so many different ways. And sometimes you're like, yay, this is great. I love this. And then other times, like, my body is disgusting, and it's been really fun to sort of have to just do it. Well, I'm in my house most of the time and I eat a lot of carbs because I don't have anything else to do. So, like, if I have some extra like, you know, a back roll, then that's fine. And I think that I personally have just gotten more comfortable with with not having to like break my back to angle myself to hide like cellulite or whatever it was I was doing before. And also just like finding, I think that when you make images of yourself in that way, you start to be more forgiving and you find yourself desirable. And that's been really fun for me as well. And also, I would never do video like and like everyone like who would have ever been like, sure, let's video chat or sure looks like have video sex, face time sex. And that's been fun to just like be open to and try and so that’s like a whole new frontier that I am glad I, I started exploring, even though it gets real - like angles are tough on video. I'm not going to lie.

Cristen: How so?

Allison: It's like, I don't know, you're moving and if you like, knock the thing, it's like they're like I had to invest in like a tripod type of thing. It's like a ring light - it’s taken a lot of equipment, to to - there's no easy way to prop up a phone, you know, for a video like that. And like that lasts when you're trying to get the angles right. But also, I think I was a person who hated the phone in general before. I just text all the time and I never pick up the phone or face time. And now I do really like like voices are are sexier than I realized.

Caroline: So how has your nude sending process evolved?

Allison: I think I'm better at composing shots in general because I spend a lot of time looking at the way other people post thirst traps and I have a folder on my phone called Poses. Where I just like steal other people's poses who are very good at it. And so I've learned how to arrange my body so that I feel like I look the sexiest and I also just like had fun with not always being full nudes, you know, like there's only so many times you can send somebody the same exact picture of your bare boobs and have it be like, oh, exciting. It's new. Feel like playing with lingerie or like like pillows or, you know, just like trying to find the. It's like the equivalent of showing not telling but just with nudes.

Cristen: Like a suggestion?

Allison: Yes, that's the word, suggestion. Yeah. And that's what fun like making it much more suggestive, suggestive and like pornographic, you know, which is sometimes the route you think you have to go. If all you see is like, oh, well, the center- for Playboy, this is like tits and V out. But no, no, it's makes to artfully arrange the T. So maybe you're not always showing all the T. Sorry I feel like I should have had wine before I started this. It sounds like I did, but I didn't. And that's the problem. That I’m sober.

Caroline: Well, I’m curious about safety and peace of mind. Like I feel like, when you're worried about what someone could do with your images. Is there generally a safe way to go about it?

Allison: I mean, I feel like really trust a person like you. And it's the best I've found that I really wished it was better than just like, don't put your face in the photo. You know, that's like the best that I've figured out because I think that there are probably apps you can use that like send dissolving disappearing photos or whatever. I just haven't figured it out because I'm not young and hip and I guess it's what Snapchat was originally for. But I thought about sending them through Instagram, but I worry about Instagram getting hacked and like you know even the photos are disappearing, somehow reappearing. So for me, it's just like until I really trust a person. There's no I don't put my face in it. That's like the best thing I've figuring out if you get some other tips, I would love to know because I never do worry about it. You know, the person that you're talking to, even if it's a like a couple of weeks and you send a nude like I don't know I have tattoos somebody could figure out it's me. And I don't think people are vicious, but they definitely are. You know? And also, I have a question for you. If you do have better tips, what do you do when you break up with someone and they have a phone full of your nudes? Do you ask for them back? I've been debating that recently.

Cristen: That's such a good question, because it depends on the context of the breakup, because I am cynical, and I think that I would I would just assume that they would they would save some for themselves or like they would have already shared them. I don't know. That's such a good question, though.

Caroline: I don't have great tips either. I mean, beyond the whole no-face thing, which I have already broken that rule with my current boyfriend. But I think it goes back to what you were saying Allison, of like a feeling of trust. As for if we broke up. I think I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I probably wouldn't even mention it and just hope to God that he he is not being vindictive.

Cristen: One thing that I would love, like a joint bank account. You know, you need once you're in like a if you're in a committed relationship with someone and you're to the point to where you want to start sharing, you know, full body nudes. You're sending each sending them to like a shared drop box where it's like everyone has all the collateral. I don't know.

Allison: That's actually a great idea. Like, just make sure it's password protected and whatever. But, it ruins a little bit of the romance, I guess.

Cristen: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like getting a prenup, but it's also practical.

Caroline: We’ll call it the Conger method.

Cristen: Oh, God, please don't.

Allison: I just wrote this down.

Cristen: I don't want to be known as the woman - or maybe I do. I don't know. OK. More questions to ask myself later.

Caroline: So um there was a study of straight college students that found that women are four times likelier than men to send nudes to prevent the recipient from losing interest or keep them from looking at images of other people. So from your point of view, is it a bad idea to send nudes out of desperation? Should we be checking in with ourselves about our motivations before we hit send?

Allison: Oh my gosh, absolutely. I think even as an adult, sometimes I worry about that and like maybe send like a nude when I've been tempted to send a nude as a way to like, say, remember me, I'm so hot. Don't you want this again. And you should never I feel you should have never send anything unless it's about your own desires or your own desire to be desired or you feel like you're coming at it from a position of power. So I don't think the desperate nude is ever a good idea. Also, like, you really want to keep that guy in line if you feel like he's only going to like you again or that person on the line if you feel like they're going to like you if they see see your nude. Definitely not. Ah that’s advice I should've taken to myself a year ago. Just thinking.

Caroline: Ooh

Allison: We're all teenagers at heart, aren't we?

Cristen: Yeah.

Caroline: What happened a year ago?

Allison: Oh, I think I was just like in the process of getting dumped. I was like, oh, but don't you. You're going to miss this juicy ass aren't you? And like, sent a picture of my ass. And I was like, why would I do that? He clearly does not want this ass because he's in the process of dumping it. So what? What do I think that this picture is going to this picture - also. He had like a million pictures of my butt. But no, I thought that one would be the one that would magically change his mind about the whole situation. Yeah.

Cristen: Did he respond when you sent it?

Allison: No, he did not. Which felt horrible. Oh. I can't even really blame tequila, I think I was like, fairly. Just like sad. So, no, it feels much worse than just like. Than just potentially being dumped, you know, being thirsty never feels great.

Caroline: So if you could offer — I mean, you have given so much perspective already. But if you could offer unladylike listeners one piece of sexting advice, what would it be?

Allison: I mean, honestly, the - I think that we're all so conditioned to, like, use our phones, what we're doing, 50 other things, like every Netflix movie is designed for you to be like idly texting a million people while you watch a movie, like while other things are going on. And I don't think sexting should be like the background activity. Look, I know that sometimes it just is like you're not always sexting and like masturbating or whatever. But at the same time, also it's just hard to do. But like, if you're engaging with, like sexting, it should be sort of like foreplay for yourself or you should sense be actually be present or else like it's not really that fun for the other person. And if you're not present, then it probably means like you don't want to be sexting at that moment. So there's no need to, like, force it. So that's just I think my only advice like don't sext if you're going to also watch Netflix while you do it. If you're tempted, maybe that person, like isn't the person you should engage in a sext with? Yes. Don't Netflix and sext, kids, is my advice.

Cristen: You can find Avery Trufelman @trufelman on Twitter and listen to her on The Cut. You can find Allison P. Davis @allisonpdavis on Twitter, or find her writing over at New York Magazine. And we’ll also link to The Joy of Sext episode from The Cut in our show notes.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly bonus episodes, listener advice and more fun at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Production help from Camila Salazar. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week, we’re talking Botox with with Dana Berkowitz, gender studies professor and author of Botox Nation: Changing the Face of America

Dana Berkowitz: Oh yeah. The messages are so powerful and they're so pervasive that. Yes. Yes. I found myself internalizing them. And I also when I was interviewing lots of women, many of them who were people I knew. Right. They would tell me, like, how stupid and foolish I was for not trying Botox myself. Even my mother was like how can you write about a book about Botox if you haven't tried it yet? So like all of these reasons, I tried it. And it was I think it was like 35 when I first tried it. And I was really amazed at how refreshed and awake and even a little younger I looked. I remember feeling secretly pleased, but also like incredibly overcome with guilt and shame about my decision. Feeling like I had capitulated to these very patriarchal and consumerist ideologies. I was supposed to be critiquing.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss this episode — or any episode this season!! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

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