Transcript | Illuminati Influencer Queens, pt. 2

ABBIE RICHARDS: So I think that it came after this summer where everyone had been exposed to this so much that I think some people found it really helpful as just, like, a way to think about conspiracy theories in a way that's not just inherently dismissive of all of them because it's so important that we aren't just saying, like, oh, always trust people in power.They always have your best interests at heart. Cuz they don't. And helping to draw the line there and provide a framework.

I had a lot of people reaching out to me feeling like it helped them understand our conspiracy-obsessed society a little bit better.

[THEME SONG]

CRISTEN: Welcome to Unladylike. I'm Cristen, and this is part two of a two-parter on women, gender and conspiracy culture. You can listen in whichever order you prefer. If you wanna go part one, then part two — if you're a traditionalist — go ahead. You can also mix things up and go part two, then part one. Doesn't matter.

The only requirement is you must listen to both. Those are the rules, and really you're welcome for not making it a 17-parter because it could be. It could be, It could be, like, a 47-parter, OK?

As I learned in part one from historian Erin Kempker, women have played influential roles in American conspiracy culture for decades over the past century. Really, more often than not, we're talking white women and part of their conspiracy influence came from leaning into traditional gender roles as housewives and mothers. And we still see that happening today with things like pastel QAnon, which more on that later, and based on my research at least, the more racist and antisemitic conspiracy beliefs are, the more misogynist and gender panicked they get as well.

It really becomes just a giant bowl of horrible spaghetti. It's Meghan Markle truthers. It's soy boys. It's #SavetheChildren.

At the same time, conspiracy theories at large aren't a monolith, you know? And when women and conspiracies first grabbed my attention, and I started researching whether, like, is this something unladylike should cover, I quickly found myself stumped with the inevitable question of, well, what about conspiracy theories that are true? What about conspiracy theories that might not necessarily be true, but the suspicion is warranted? Then I ran across a handy infographic because, clearly, I'm a fucking millennial, but I ran across this infographic that did really help put this part in perspective for me.

It's called The Conspiracy Theory Chart. Very easy to remember. Our guest, Abby Richards, first sketched it out on TikTok back in September 2020. Caption: This is all I've been thinking about for like three days.

TIKTOK CLIP: so I should be working on my essay, but then I remember that there's no good categorization system for all conspiracy theories, so I just like went ahead and made one.

It looks like this. As you can see, it goes from most based in reality, to least based in reality. Down here we have things that we know actually did happen, like MK Ultra. But then once you pass the speculation line, we get into our, We have questions section, so that's area 51. Epstein. Obviously moving forward we get into the unequivocally false but mostly harmless section, so that's Lockness.

Monster. Birds aren't real big foot, not doing too much harm. This line though, this is when we start to harm society. This is where we get anti-vaxxers, chem trail people, flat earthers, not good. Once you pass the antisemitic point of no return, there really is no coming back. Once you kind of believe one of these, you're required to believe the rest.

These are super harmful.

CRISTEN: As of this recording, Abbie's TikTok has 1.1 million views, more than 200,000 likes and 3,600 comments I'm honestly terrified to read, and that is a very long way of saying Abbie went viral.

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ABBIE: My name is Abby Richards. I'm based in Boston, Massachusetts. Uh, I am a ticker and a TikTok misinformation researcher.

CRISTEN: So, what sparked your interest in misinformation?

ABBIE: I think, so I really think it, it comes down to what my original kind of academic pursuit was, which was environmental science. Uh, so I did my bachelor's in environmental science and, and currently in my Master's for climate studies. And I think if you're gonna study the environment in any capacity, you have to have an understanding of misinformation.

Because fossil fuel misinformation has fueled our inability to not address the climate crisis. Is

CRISTEN: there a difference between disinformation and conspiracy theories?

ABBIE: Yes. So disinformation is really any like false information that is spread with the intent to cause harm, which is different than misinformation, which is just like false information regardless of intent.

Um, and then a conspiracy theory, It, it can blur the lines, like sometimes it comes from somebody who really does have intent to cause harm, whether it's, uh, an antisemitic conspiracy theory or maybe like a transphobic conspiracy theory. And then other times it's coming from a sincere desire to like question power.

And maybe it's, it's not being directed as effectively as it could be, but it, it really is coming from a well-meaning place.

CRISTEN: And how have you then in, in that, in the whole conspiracy ecosystem? Do the intentions kind of matter of like if someone means, Well,

ABBIE: I, yes and no. I think that like for what their effect is, like when we're talking about like the consequences of these conspiracy theories, no, I don't think that intentions matter because when somebody is viewing a conspiracy theory, TikTok, right?

Like they don't know what the intention was of the person who posted it, it's going to have the effect that the content has. So we should look at just the content itself. But when we start to have conversations about like why misinformation spreads the way it does, I do think that incorporating intent matters then How so?

Well, I think that, It's important not to simplify, just like conspiracy theorists are trying to cause harm, um, or they are ignorant, um, or just like really any sort of oversimplification of what they're trying to do. And I think that that intent of questioning power. Like should be taken very seriously of.

I think it's a symptom of feeling unheard. We oftentimes see conspiracy theories thriving in communities that have been historically marginalized and disadvantaged. So it makes sense that they would be hesitant to trust the power structures that have failed them. So I think that it really does matter to understand like that they have a good intent, um, they feel underrepresented.

They don't feel as though they have been listened to or that anyone is fighting for them. So that matters. It's not just like they're trying to cause harm. Uh, so within those conversations, like, yes, I do think intent matters.

CRISTEN: Tell me a little bit more then about what attracts people to conspiracy theories.

ABBIE: Oh, man. Um, , uh, a wide array of things I think. First and foremost, we love a simple story to answer a very complex problem. So we love to take like a huge societal failure of some sort. Um, a lot of the times rooted into like capitalistic structures and how they seem to fail a lot of people. And we look at those and then we oversimplify it into, well, it's an evil group, and that provides like a, a very, uh, easily grasp, uh, explanation for what is in reality, like an incomprehensibly large problem.

CRISTEN: So, of course, I've gotta ask you about the chart. Could you describe, just give listeners a sense of like what it looks like and the story behind it.

ABBIE: Yeah, it's, it's an inverted pyramid, so it kind of just looks like a triangle flipped upside down, and it moves from, um, at the bottom you have based in reality and it moves up away from reality.

So at the bottom are like those conspiracies that have really happened, um, real times where people in power abuse their power. So think like Watergate, think, uh, Tuskegee or fossil fuel disinformation about climate change. Um, and then you move up into the, we have questions category, which are the things that we find suss and that, you know, maybe we don't have direct evidence to prove, but they're not so outlandish, uh, and require some.

Almost like magical superpowers over the world. There are things that we have genuine questions about. Then you move into the unequivocally false, but mostly harmless category. And that's what I would consider like a lot of like the celebrity misinformation, which um, yeah, things like a lot of celebrities who supposedly are still alive, like Elvis still being alive, or Avro Levine, uh, actually have being a clone called Melissa.

CRISTEN: I didn't realize her name was Melissa!

ABBIE: Yeah, that's like a specific part, is that she, it's either, sometimes it's clone, sometimes it's just like she was replaced by a woman who looked a lot like her and her name was Melissa.

CRISTEN: I'm so sorry to ask, but why Melissa? Do you know?

ABBIE: I have no idea.

CRISTEN: OK.

ABBIE: And then, you move up into like the reality denial, which is where we get into just denying a lot of scientific reality or political reality. Um, you know, conspiracy theories, uh, about the vaccine being a micro ship, right? Or global warming being a hoax. And then finally you pass the antisemitic point of no return.

And that is, uh, the conspiracy theories that center around some shadow group with like near supernatural powers that somehow have ultimate control over all of history and the world and simultaneously or like, have always been con in control and are always also on the brink of losing it. , it's, it's wild

CRISTEN: Yeah. Do you have a, uh, I hate to use the word favorite, but do you have a favorite like zone in, in the chart?

ABBIE: I honestly think my favorite are the real ones cuz I, I really do enjoy learning about times where people power have abused their power because I think that that's where we can grow the most.

Like I know that's not the most fun answer , most people are like the celebrity ones from like, uh, no, I'd like to learn more about Watergate and like as I'm here.

CRISTEN: Like who? Melissa. Tell me about Melissa .

ABBIE: Yeah, I know it's not as exciting when I'm, like, the real ones. But the real ones .

CRISTEN: Well, tell me then what prompted you to make it, and also what was it like for you personally when it blew up?

ABBIE: Oh my God. I made it because I was procrastinating on an essay that I had to write for school and all of my friends, like, I was like FaceTiming them and being like, What do you think of this thing? I just drew on the back of my tuberculosis test results, and it just was on like the back of my chest x-ray results, um, which came back fine.

I was, I was fine, but , uh, I just drew it cuz I was procrastinating and had been having a conversation with somebody about conspiracy theories and, um, uh, I had no idea what I had made or that it was going to be remotely helpful for people at all. I really thought that it was, Just like a, a doodle, I think.

I called my dad and I was like, What do you think of this ? And, uh, showed a few friends and they were like, Yeah, just throw it on TikTok, who cares? And then all of a sudden I had like a million views and like, couple, couple weeks later, I think by then it like also blew up on Twitter. Um, and then I had a graphic designer step in and like, help me make it look less like I drew it on the back of a tuberculosis test result sheet

Um, and I, I think it was just shocking. I had no idea that it was going to help people understand the world the way that it seems to.

CRISTEN: Now for the less positive results...

ABBIE: I mean, everybody was super great about it. Everybody loved it. , um, uh, you know, it ranged from just. Some people really, you know, civilly wanted to engage with me and be like, I like the chart, but I disagree with this particular thing.

Or I think a lot of us just have our personal conspiracy theory that we just are attached to. Um, and then there were a lot, I would say, a, a, a louder group of just, uh, big like just conspiracy theories that didn't like that I had categorized the things that they believed in as specifically antisemitic.

I think that was, uh, very upsetting for people who hadn't made that connection. So it kind of ranged, like, ranged from you. That's so wrong. These aren't antisemitic to, uh, calling me. A Satanic other slurs. Um, and a lot of, Yeah, I'd say like antisemitic and homophobic language were

CRISTEN: How did you process that? Like, were you kind of prepared in any kind of way, like mentally of oh, well, you know, the internet.

ABBIE: No. I mean, I had no idea what I had even made, um, let alone like the reach it would have. And then, you know, people on the far right, even like in neo-Nazi circles, they started remaking the chart to be like blatantly antisemitic.

Started getting death threats. I started getting like antisemitic cartoons made of me. Um, and I had to like notify the university and nobody knows what to do. In those instances, uh, there's, there isn't really any support for you besides people being like, Wow, that does not sound fun. .

CRISTEN: Yeah. Or the answer of like, Well just, you know, just get offline. Just get off TikTok.

ABBIE: Oh, yeah, just log out. Actually, the first time I went viral was for canceling golf, and . Uh, I. Got, there were people trying to dox me then. And I, this was like earlier in 2020 group trying to dox me for canceling golf cuz I guess they were bored that day or whatever. And I told the police and I called the police.

I tried to file a report, the officer told me to turn on my security settings, which means nothing. That's not a real thing. And then yeah, told me it was basically my fault of for posting online. Like why did I post in the first place and, uh, then left and never even filed the report

CRISTEN: Next I ask Abby the gender question. Can you guess which one?

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CRISTEN: We're back, and it's time for me to ask the question I can't stop asking.

CRISTEN: Did that experience of being on the receiving end of conspiracy, like active harm and targeting, did that affect. How you perceive conspiracy theories and that, those kind of microcultures and how you research them?

ABBIE: Oh, interesting. It must have, I haven't reflected on it that much, but like I, it can only assume that it did. Uh, I, I, I think it might have made me more empathetic towards them because when somebody is sending you hate mail, you're just seeing such an ugly side of them. Um, and you're seeing how deeply triggered they were by having their beliefs challenged in any way, shape or form.

Like they wouldn't be going after you like that if they didn't feel like some core element of their belief was being significantly challenged. Um, But also at the same time, I think the Internet's just kind of hell in that way, where it does just expose you to everybody. Uh, so you, you get to understand that there are just so many different perspectives out there, and some of them are like extremely hateful and will wish death upon you and like, will wish rape upon you.

And it made me like, obviously fearful, but I think just more sad for them. Hmm. That's, that's not a fun way to engage with the world. Like you're not gonna form that many loving relationships in your life. If you like, also go around just like loudly wishing death and other horrible things among people

CRISTEN: Based on your observations, what role does gender play within conspiracy theories?

ABBIE: Ohh, they are definitely, I think they're definitely gendered. Um, which type you like is, is very gendered of like what you tend to lean towards. I think the, what was so interesting with Q Andon and its evolution was the switch into the Save the children kind of side of things because it was really, uh, pioneered by women on Canva doing their Instagram, um, photographics.

And uh, there's a researcher, um, Mark Andre a, who coined the term Pastel QAN on, because they would go into Canva and use these like pastel. Colors and like existing artwork creations like templates in Canva. And then put these wild, um, child trafficking conspiracy theories as if they were just like facts out on Instagram.

And it really made this previously very male dominated. Like qan on that was conspiracy theory that was very political, constantly. Like it's in four chan, which, uh, four chan, then a chan, but uh, very much dominated by men. And it brought it into Instagram and these Canva graphics that, uh, appealed to women.

CRISTEN: During that time though, when there was like circa Wayfair trafficking, um, conspiracy, I saw a lot of coverage of. Women, like, kind of like the, the feminization of QAN on and how women spread the conspiracy theory across social media. But the thing that, that didn't necessarily like gut check with me was a sense of like, women, uh, they're into conspiracy theories now, too.

And I wonder for you if like, like to me, it wasn't like, why does, why are we surprised that women can be, it, it can hold shitty beliefs as well?

ABBIE: It, I mean, really it's a human brain thing more than it's a gendered thing, right? It's, I think our ideas of conspiracy theorists are rooted in this like tinfoil hat, uh, Like social kind of outsider of this, like, man wearing a tinfoil hat, conspiracy theorist that was depicted in media.

And in reality, like perceiving the world through conspiracy theories is a, is your brain's tactic of, it's, it's a tactic to make the world that's complicated and scary make sense. And that is not unique to any one gender or another. Now the specific conspiracy theories, I think what they target can, you know, fall along our societal binary, um, lines of like gender, what, what people care about.

Like, I think with like, you know, Save the Children and Wayfair, it's all about protecting children. It's about family, It's about, um, Like it's, it considers children to be the most sacred thing, and then it paints this evil, horrible villain who's a monster because like only a monster could be literally sacrificing children for their blood, right?

Like, it, it's a very good way to paint an enemy into your monsters. Just like, say that they're doing terrible things to children, but like women are going to, it seems like they will care more about the children and protecting them than maybe they will get into, um, uh, the more political side. Uh, hey, I'm thinking, I'm trying to think of like one specific male dominated, but I think QAN on is such a good example with like q leaving drops on the boards and like on the message boards and, uh, having this political following and people deciphering it.

I think there was like a very male dominated conspiracy theory up until they started to involve like the children and protecting them. That's when like, it starts to appeal to women using the frame of a conspiracy theory isn't necessarily that helpful. Um, when it comes to, to questioning power, I would actually argue that it is, it's more harmful because it's, it's, it tends to just justify the system instead of actually like questioning it.

Mm. When we say like, Oh, there's this evil group that is behind it, and all over our problems are caused by them. We're not examining the system itself, and it's failings like failures. We're trying to just blame bad apples. Right? It's, it's, it's a system justification method in that sense. And there's some good research into this too, where if you believe in conspiracy, you're just less likely to then support, like overall systemic change, um, because you're, you're approaching the world with it's individual's fault rather than systemic.

CRISTEN: How do you take care of your own mental health and wellbeing as, as someone in this space?

ABBIE: Uh, I don't know. , . I try my best. I don't know. It's, it's a work in progress. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, I am perfectly fine.

CRISTEN: I should reframe the question. Does it take a toll mentally and emotionally?

ABBIE: Yes. Uh, it's, I mean, you're, you're exposed to a lot of traumatic content itself. Like, aside from just the harassment that's personally attacking me, even on the research side of things, you're just exposed to a lot of hatred. Um, a lot of distrust and a lot of just like blatantly false information. And then when it does come to the, having any sort of public facing, um, side of this, this work or being involved in this public facing side of this work, uh, then you're also opening yourself up to harassment and threats and potentially like real life security.

Threats. Um, so yes, like those absolutely take a toll on your health. Women doing this research and also like queer people doing this research, um, especially if they have any sort of public facing side of it, whether it's, even if it's just like a Twitter account, um, are particularly vulnerable to harassment, I think more so than, uh, men, particularly like, yeah, I think there are a lot of intersecting factors there.

So if you're a person of color, if you're a woman, if you're queer, like you're just more vulnerable. But also we need those perspectives even more when it comes to understanding these problems and, and, uh, their consequences.

CRISTEN: How do you think your life would be different at this point, had you not tossed that back of the tuberculosis test doodle up on TikTok?

ABBIE: Had I not posted the back of my chest X-ray results? Uh, yeah. No. I mean, it, it, but the thing is, I, I love it. Like, I wouldn't change it, um, because it makes me think, it makes me like challenges the way I think about the world and the assumptions that I like enter conversations with.

I think it's made me better understand where other people come from. I find it interesting and I find it meaningful. So I, I love it. I'm very glad that I posted the back of my chest X-ray results up on TikTok. Um, but uh, on the other hand, like I might have a slightly calmer life. And my roommate would have to do less emotional management.

CRISTEN: While Abbie keeps her eagle eye on how conspiracies catch fire and spread on TikTok, our next guest, returning friend of the pod, Bridget Todd, is focused on the very real havoc they wreak and disproportionately on marginalized people.

BRIDGET: My name is Bridget Todd. Uh, she her. I live in Washington dc. I am the creator and host of iHeartRadio podcast, There Are No Girls On the Internet, where we explore the intersection of technology in the internet and gender identity culture. Um, we talk a lot about conspiracy theories, disinformation misinformation. Uh, I also am the director of Public Communications for Ultraviolet, which is a gender justice organization trying to build a feminist internet.

CRISTEN: From your point of view, what roles do gender play in our kind of current conspiracy landscape?

BRIDGET: A huge role. A huge role. And I don't think people are talking enough about it. And I think I, I mean that in a way that people might not expect if you're a woman in the United States or really many countries globally.

But I wanna particularly focus on the United States. We can, I swear on this podcast. Oh yes. Oh my gosh. Please. We're, we are being constantly rat fucked in every direction, right? Like, we don't have paid leave. You know, we, where many of us are in the workforce and then are still expected to parent, um, we shoulder the burden of every crisis.

Uh, we are expected to just do this and. Like we are the backbone of what keeps society running. And we essentially are asked to do this on top of our nine to five, outside of the home jobs, uh, without being paid for it and with a goddamn smile while like shaving our legs and being pretty right. It is a fucking scam.

And we are being rat bucked by every major institution that exists ostensibly to provide support and keep us safe. They have failed time and time again. So given, given that like reality just to level set of where we are, it makes sense then that in a society where women feel so are, are, are rightly feeling so unsupported, so unseen, so unheard that when someone comes in and they offer an easy solution to what you are feeling, that you, that women are going to say, That sounds right.

When someone says, you know, I know that you're feeling. You know, scared to send your kids to school because it doesn't seem safe right now. What if the problem was not big and thorny and difficult to solve and like institutional? What if it was the fact that teachers are actually grooming your kids with lgbtq, you know, uh, paraphernalia Like, right?

What if it was that Democrats are secretly pedophiles who want to drink your blood? What if it was that every single time you go to Target, someone might kidnap you and put you in a car, and that's something that you should be afraid of? I think that we live in a society where women genuinely do have a lot of reasons to feel unnerved, anxious, and unsupported.

And the reality is, is that causes the conditions for bad actors to exploit. I think what is oftentimes very genuine, um, bad feelings. And to get women, especially to be on board with some stuff that's really toxic, oftentimes antisemitic, oftentimes the racist classes. And I think the, the, the, the reasoning is it's just like we're not sup.

We don't, we don't have institutional support in other ways like we should. So how

CRISTEN: does that extend, do you think, to the conspiratorial idea of gender ideology and just transphobia? Just, up, down, sideways?

BRIDGET: I mean, I see it everywhere. I see it even in these, like, and this is the thing about it, is that it's so, it can be so like, um, subtle and insidious. Like when I'm on TikTok, I often see these ticks that are. They don't, they don't outright say like, Oh, I am an anti, I am like pushing antifeminist propaganda, because they're never gonna say that. Right? But what they're telling me is that like they're, they're speaking to me as like an exhausted person who works a lot and it comes home and is like, still has to do more labor around the house.

And it's like, did you know that back in the day, um, if you were a woman, you would just be married and live a soft, slow life and your husband would take care of the money? And did you know that the reason why people want you to be a feminist is because if you had a job outside of the house, that's more taxable income for the government.

And so the government is interested in you working. And the best thing that we can do to push back against this is to not work, not make money, not have voting rights, not participate in civic life, not participate, participate in economic life. And when you're exhausted, that sounds fucking great. Right? Or you're like, Oh yeah.

Why, why am I like killing myself at this job? I could be, There's a, a better alternative. Now, the problem is when you're exhausted and stressed out, that's very like, like, sounds great. But when you think about it for a little bit, you're like, Well, wait a minute. You know? Uh, did women like, like, was it like, like wasn't really great to not be able to vote and not be able to own property and be like, you know, in every meaningful way attached to your husband?

Was that great? And is that really the truth for like women who weren't white? Like I'm a black woman back in the day, what would I really have been able to live this like soft life, this like white ticker is laying out for me? And also like, would it have been legal for my husband to rape me or beat me?

And like when you start thinking about it, you're like, Wait a minute, this person is laying out a fictionalized version of utopia. From a, from a year, from years gone by, that does not actually exist. But it is so susceptible. You're so susceptible to it. When you, when you see it in the mo, if you, if you, if that TikTok, if that kind of TikTok hits me on a day where I'm exhausted and have had a day from hell at work, I could see how you're like, Oh yeah, she's making some good points.

I, I shouldn't work. I should have, you know, we should go back to that bygone era that doesn't exist. Right. And so I see it in that, I also see it in all the ways that women are being told that the true like villain in how we all feel are trans folks, right? The it is, it is tail's oldest time. It is the oldest playbook in the, it's the oldest page in the bad actor Playbook to Blame, to pit marginalized groups against each other. So to tell women who have not had an easy shake of it to be like, Oh, the real culprit is trans folks who are also marginalized. Like it's a complete fiction that trans folks are, you know, like, like, and again, if you think about it for longer than like 10 minutes, you're like, Wait a minute.

It's not reality that like trans women have had their boot on the throat of the am of like American society for decades. They're like, Wait a minute. That's not true. But in the moment it's so, you're so susceptible to it because everybody likes having somebody to blame. And it's, it's, I, I think bad actors do this because they know that people who are traditionally marginalized, trans folks, queer folks, women, people of color, we are so much stronger together when we are united, right?

And so that is a threat to them. And so it's so much easier to be like, Oh, let's pit them against each other to avoid having them see that our issues and our oppression and our liberation are all linked.

CRISTEN: The idea of, um, so called gender critical feminism, um, is I think is kind of an example of how conspiracy theories cross the political spectrums as well. Where it's like there are plenty of cisgender women who would not identify with like right wing politics at all necessarily, and might lean what might look like on paper as more progressive except for, Oh yeah, wait, I'm, I really don't, you know, uh, don't steal sports from my girls.

BRIDGET: Absolutely. Right. And I think, again, I think it just goes to show how insidious some of these, some of the content that we're seeing pushing this kind of ideology is because it's the kind of content that, like if you're a.

Cis feminist, a cis, a cis woman feminist, you might not. It, it's very difficult to see that it's actually BS sometimes they're very good at making it so subtle. You know, I I, I was reading a story about a, a black lesbian feminist who was invited to this like lesbian feminist summer camp. And one of the requirements to go, it said, um, you know, this is a women and women only space.

We will not be arguing that, you know, end of sentence. And she was like, That's pretty weird, but didn't think much of it. And then when she poked a little bit, what they were really saying is, uh, no trans folks, right? And so I think it's really interesting how oftentimes people who might think of themselves as progressive feminists are able to be misled by people who are trans folks. There's not any other way to say it. And I think, you know, I'll often see these articles where it's like, oh, basically the underlying point is that that trans folks are a threat to CI women. And there'll be these stories where it's like, oh, there was a, a man in this bathroom who was assaulting people.

And I always think like, what's that got got to do with trans people? If the story is that a cis man went into a bathroom to attack women, that has nothing to do with like, like, like a trans person didn't do that. And so it's this, it's this really insidious way of painting trans folks and also queer folks and just LGBTQ folks wri large as villainist as not to be trusted.

And I think the underlying. Point there is, and thus you should not be in community with them. You should not build coalition with them. You should see their issues as in opposition with your issues. You should see, see their liberation as in opposition of with your own. And we know that's not true, but there, but the folks who are interested in pushing that are really invested in, in us as cis women thinking that way.

CRISTEN: Well, and it also seems to weaponize the idea of a safe space, right? Mm. Like a bathroom, like a women’s camp.

BRIDGET: Exactly. And the data is so clear. Like it, it's one of those things where it's like, I feel, I really feel for trans folks because I cannot imagine how exhausting it is to have to rebut this shit over and over and over again when the data is there.

There is not there. Trans folks are not going into bathrooms to assault people. It's just not, It's like, it is not hap like if the data is so clear, if this was happening, If this was a widespread problem, we would've heard about it. The data would be there. It's just not the same way that trans folks are not presenting some like massive national threat to girls sports.

It's not happening, right? And so people are so good at cherry picking and taking out of context, uh, small examples, which it is, it's not necessarily disinformation, but it's a kind of media manipulation to, to pr to make it seem as though this is like a widespread issue and they're coming for you and they're coming for your daughter and this and that, and it's just not happening.

But bad actors are so good at exploiting these, these conversations. Really do take a little bit of nuance and thoughtfulness to discuss properly, and they know this and so they like to flatten them out into like, you are being attacked. You are in danger. Your kid, this, that your school, because they're invested in making sure that we never get anywhere on these conversations.

They're invested in making sure that we always stay divided and afraid of each other and, and not, and untrustworthy of each other. Or untrusting of each other.

CRISTEN: Unladies, let's just really soak that in for a second while we take a quick break.

[AD BREAK]

CRISTEN: We are back with Bridget Todd, who first came on unladylike last year to talk about disinformation and digital blackface. If you haven't listened, go do it. And I wanted to follow up on a question that I asked during that interview that I thought about a lot while researching for conspiracy theories.

CRISTEN: Last time we talked, uh, we interviewed, I interviewed you, uh, about a year ago, almost to the day I went back and looked. Um, and in, in that interview I asked you how white women specifically were playing into conspiracy mongering. And I just have to note that your, your immediate answer was perfect, which was how much time do you have?

BRIDGET: Um, that sounds like some shit I would say it.

CRISTEN: It was great. And so true! But what about Black women and women of color?

BRIDGET: Yeah, that's a, I mean, how much time do you have ? No, I, I think that, you know, White women, I think, have been targeted by conspiracy theorists in ways that really play up this, you know, these very familiar tropes and ideas about white femininity and the need to be protected, the need for that to be protected.

I think that black women and women of color, you know, we're, we're, it's not, it's not that we're not susceptible. It's not, it's not, I don't wanna make it seem like we're not susceptible, but I think that black women by nature, like have been social socialized to like, have a kind of bullshit detector. Like, like to be like, I'm probably being lied to right now.

And I think that it's so interesting the ways in which that has been kind of weaponized against us, right? Mm-hmm. black women, we have a lot, we have a lot of reasons to be skeptical of institutions like, Legitimate reasons to be skeptical of institutions, right? Like, look at the black maternal mortality rate.

Look how black women are treated by the medical institutions. Look how black women are treated politically. We have so many reasons to be rightfully skeptical of institutions, and I think that conspiracy theorists and bad actors who are pushing, you know, bad information, they know this and they weaponize this, this tension against us, right?

And so the way that I see conspiracy theory playing out for a lot of black women and women of color really targets us along those specific lines that like, you are being lied to by your political leaders. You are being mistreated by your medical providers. Things that are not wrong, but then the, the extra thing they add is, so you should, you know, not get the covid vaccine, or you should, you know, By my thousand dollars seminar on the divine feminine instead of going to the gynecologist or like things like that.

Right? And so that's, I I think that it's really about, you know what, regardless of race, I think it's always about like targeting these very specific tensions and traumas and, you know, fears and anxiety that people have for legitimate reasons and turning them against us. And that's, that's what I see done, done so expertly when it comes to targeting black women and women of color.

CRISTEN: So one kinda mental wall that I, I keep running into as I've been putting this episode together and researching is that, you know, actively dangerous conspiracy theories are just gamified fear and bigotry. Um, and. It's like I'm now gonna ask you an ethical question, uh, by covering conspiracy theories, like this is the loop that I end up at of like, okay, if, if the underlying like grossness of these dangerous, like Q Andon style conspiracy theories are just pure bigotry and hate, like, am I by talking about conspiracy theories explicitly, am I playing that game as well?

BRIDGET: Ooh, Kristin, I am, I, I cannot tell you how happy I am that you've raised this question, and I, it's something, it's something that I wrestle with a lot. So I would say not necessarily, right, Like I cover conspiracy on my shows, Uh, but it's something that I think we do need to talk about, and it's one of those things.

Not talking about it doesn't make the problem go away. Mm-hmm. , it just allows it to fester and grow. And I think that a lot of feminists especially are kind of learning that with a lot of things that, like we didn't talk a lot about, um, certain, you know, uh, super misogynistic online spaces and we were just like, Oh, let's ignore them.

And now it's like, ooh, they've really gotten outta control. I think that the key is doing it in a way that's ethical and responsible At Ultraviolet, we actually put together a couple of years ago, a media guide to educate media on how they can ethically and responsibly report on, uh, particularly people of color and women who are running for office, but in ways that did not amplify and thus legitimize conspiracy theory.

So things like, you know, we would often see, uh, new like mainstream news sites, so like, The one, like, not, like, not new sites that are like completely off the rails, like ones that you think of as like trustworthy would report on things like QAN on. And they would put in the headline like, um, you know, so and so accuses such and such of being a pedophile.

And if you didn't click into that story, you might think, Oh, so-and-so's a pedophile. How horrible. But then you click in and you're like, Oh, this like fringe candidate. This fringe person has accused somebody of being a pedophile and it's completely baseless. And so making sure that when you craft these stories from the headline, the image that you choose, that you are not actually just allowing things that are completely baseless and also dangerous to be legitimized, right?

Because people might not click into the story, they might not read it. And so it's really a time for, I think people who make media. To really be thoughtful about how they're making that media. Um, something else I might add that it, that I, I feel like you've, you've done a great job of in this conversation, um, is making sure that the targets are really centered, right?

And so, so much of, of media about conspiracy theory talks about the people who, you know, get involved in it and like, you know, what that experience is like for them. And I think that's, I think that's an important part of the conversation. But what we need to also do is make sure that the, that people who are targeted, that their stories and their voices and their perspectives are also centered.

Because unfortunately, uh, most often those people are marginalized, right? LGBTQ folks, trans folks, people of color, black folks, women, we are the ones who are disproportionately targeted by things like disinformation and conspiracy theory. And so I think that in order to ethically make content about conspiracy, that needs to be very clear that, that, like, it can't just be the perspective of like, you know, The white male who is like being radicalized into believing something toxic.

It has to also take into effect like, well, who are the people that he is being radicalized to believe a toxic thing about? And, and what are their communities like and how has that impacted them? We, we don't, I don't think we do near enough media making that accounts for the harm that conspiracy theories have been responsible for.

And that harm is disproportionately shouldered by people who are marginalized.

CRISTEN: And this might be a, an obvious question, but why hasn't there been more coverage?

BRIDGET: Oh, that's a really good question. I think in some ways it's easier to tell the story of someone who is being radicalized than it is to account for harm of someone who has been the target of that radicalization.

And I think that is because, When you're talking about how that person came to experience that harm, oftentimes a lot of different, there are a lot of different threads on that, right? Like media could be complicit, right? Like, like, you know, I, I wouldn't necess if, if I were a journalist, I wouldn't necessarily want to have to be like, Well, this conspiracy that I irresponsibly reported on led to a gunman coming into this grocery store in Buffalo and murdering people.

I don't wanna have to like pull the thread of like, well, how was I complicit in that? And was my reporting always ethical and did, did my reporting legitimize some of the ideology that led to this tragedy that is thorny, difficult, complex, complicated, like emotionally complex work? And I can understand why it's not work that people do more often.

So I think that's one. I also think that we have, So, so in this conversation you have rightly asked like what are some ways that women are targeted for conspiracy theories or what are some ways that people of color are? Um, but I do think that we still have this incorrect mindset that the person who is targeted to be taken down a conspirator rabbit hole is gonna be a white male, like in a basement.

Mm-hmm. , that is absolutely like part of the conversation, but it's not the full conversation. And so I think a lot of media is just like, for very deep institutional reasons is always going to. Uh, default to humanizing whiteness and maleness. And I think that we have this idea that the person who is being radicalized is gonna be a white male.

So we, so I think me, it's easy for media makers to default to humanizing and centering that particular narrative. Is there anything

CRISTEN: that I have not asked you about conspiracy theories, ultraviolet your work that you wanna make sure that listeners know?

BRIDGET: The one thing I will say is that, and this is a little bit of a non-sequitur, but it feels very related to me, is that since the decision on Roe versus Wade, we have, I, I think that that has really shown me the importance of having an internet ecosystem where accurate information is, is abundant and inaccurate information is the anomaly, Right?

Like right now it's, it's reverse. Mm-hmm. , where inaccurate information is common and accurate information. Is unusual. And when that e even before the decision came down, when just the leaked memo was in Politico or the, the leaked decision was in Politico, that very same day we saw our internet ecosystem flood with inaccurate information.

I saw people saying, Oh, this draft opinion means that abortion is illegal in the United States starting now everywhere. That's not true, right? And so it really showed me how important it is in this moment that people are able to use the internet to get accurate information, to make decisions for their health, their bodies, and their lives.

And so when I talk about this, it's not. It, it's life and death. People need to be able to use the internet to, to get information that is accurate, and I think that in the wake of the decision on a Roe v Wade, that's just become so much clearer.

[MUSIC BREAK]

CRISTEN: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our guests, Bridget Todd and Abby Richards. You can follow Bridget on Twitter at Bridget Marie and on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC and listen to her. Fantastic podcast. There are no girls on the internet now. As for Abby Richards, you can head on over to TikTok and follow her at topology, which is T O F O L O G Y, and on Twitter at Abby, A B B I E A Sr.

Instagram, same. And website abby sr.com. Or you could also, I'm realizing just Google. Abby Richards and Bridget Todd, you know, so you can follow Unladylike on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at Unladylike Media For weekly bonus episodes, full interviews with our brilliant guests, and you're truly in the comments, join the unlady, like Patreon, four, five single dollars each month.

Go to patreon.com/unladylike media and huge thanks to the team at Starburns Audio Unlady like is a Starburns audio production, written and executive produced bny Kristin Conger. Rebecca Steinberg is our senior producer. Katherine Cal is our associate producer, Engineering, and post production is by Ali Nacu.Our music is by Flamingo Shadow a May Cohen and Sarah Hudson.

Till next time, stand unladylike and ask me about conspiracy theories and women!