Transcript | Ep. 76: How to Spot Scams
[Stinger]
Laci Mosley: We need to beat capitalism's ass. I'm so tired of this. If you're in a situation where you're being crushed by this country, which a lot of people are, like, I absolutely approve of you scamming the government especially, large corporations whenever you want because they are scamming us.
[Theme music]
Cristen: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike, where we find out what happens when women break the rules. I’m Cristen.
Caroline: I’m Caroline.
Cristen: And I’m Elizabeth Holmes, founder of the blood-testing company Theranos, and in case you’re wondering, yes I am wearing a black turtleneck
Caroline: Oh, hey, Lizzie H, huh, founder of the BOGUS blood-testing company, Theranos!
Cristen: OK, case pending…
Caroline: Shouldn’t you be in court somewhere?
Cristen: Well my lawyers did quit, so I have a little time on my hands [end EH voice] … Seriously though, Caroline, as you might have picked up, I came down with some Elizabeth Holmes fever last year and I have not shaken that.
Caroline: Yeah, I’m getting that a little bit. Getting it. Yeah.
Cristen: I mean, I listened to the audiobook about her, I binged the podcast … my Google news feed now knows to serve me any and all Holmesian content, and I’m gonna click on it
Caroline: So, why? Was it the voice and Steve Jobs-y turtlenecks that did it for you?
Cristen: [EH voice] Well, yes and yes, partly. But really, it was the fact that she bilked a group of prestigious, rich, old white dudes into investing just BAZILLIONS of dollars in her fraudulent startup. And I’m definitely not a Lizzie fan, but the gender dynamics of the whole thing are unladylike catnip to me, I could not resist.
Caroline: Yeah, I mean if we’re gonna exist in a sexist, capitalist hellscape, why not get yours, I guess?
Cristen: Well Caroline, one of our guests today — the huh-larious comic, actor and podcast host Laci Mosley — also known as the Scam Goddess — would definitely agree with you there
Laci: If I were to write like an Obama-style book, he wrote Audacity of Hope. I’ll write Audacity of Scams.
Caroline: Laci is the perfect person to indulge in some scam schadenfreude with, and she’ll also offer some spot-on insights about what unladies might stand to learn from grifters
Cristen: But an Elizabeth Holmes duping fat cats is really an exception to the scam rule. Way more often, it’s the other way around — people with all the money and power scamming the rest of us.
Caroline: Right — and that’s the kind of scamming our first guest specializes in. Her name is Jane Marie
Cristen: And if you are a fraud broad, a swindle head, a sham ham, perhaps, like me, you’ve probably binged her podcast, The Dream
Jane Marie: When we first started, the working title of the show was Scams. That got totally shut down by legal because we couldn't just intro every show with: Welcome back to Scams. Now let's talk about this company, and then just get sued every week. So we brainstormed another title for the show, and it ended up being The Dream, which is a scam.
Caroline: The scam that Jane Marie’s referring to is — in her words — the “impossible task of achieving the American Dream.” In season one of the show, she dove into the truly mind boggling world of MLMs, or multi-level marketing schemes - think companies like Avon, Mary Kay, Lularoe.
Cristen: Well C, speaking of Mary Kay, my mom swore by it as the BEST skincare system and makeup … like, to her Estee Lauder was more like Estee LOLer!
Caroline: And that’s how MLMs hook you. Typically, they operate by attracting salespeople, or “distributors,” who are dazzled enough by their products that they're comfortable with BUYING their own inventory from the company, then taking it out and selling to their family, friends, friends of friends. …
Cristen: And, if these “distributors” wanna climb the ladder, or the pyramid as it may be, they’ve also got to recruit those customers to become distributors as well. Some might call it a capitalist cult ... MLMs call it “direct sales.”
Caroline: No matter what you call them, Jane Marie has spent a loooot of time investigating why women are especially drawn to their siren song and how such questionable companies get away with it.
Cristen: So today, we’re unraveling the relationship between gender and grift … to find out who’s really pulling society’s biggest scams?
[Stinger]
Caroline: As a little girl in Michigan, Jane Marie loved to play “Avon Lady” with her great-grandma Maxine’s lipsticks and eyeliners and order forms … But as she got older, that style of entrepreneurship lost its shine …
Jane Marie: I would hear from people in my family and friend group saying, oh, I - I got a new job this week. And I'd be like, Oh, that's great. We live outside of Flint, like there's a job here? And they'd be like, yeah, I'm selling this nutritional shake. And I was like, Aw shit, it's Herbalife. You know, that's not a job. And I don't want to buy it. Had I known there was ephedrine in it at 18 years old, I might have purchased some but, but that went away.
Cristen: That personal connection is ultimately what propelled Jane Marie to head back to Michigan and investigate businesses like Avon for The Dream. Here she is in episode one:
[Clip from The Dream]
Jane Marie: This place is a hotbed for multilevel marketing. I’m back here to find out why. And more than that I’m back because I want to walk into my friends’ and loved ones’ homes and ask them the question that pops into my head every single time they try to pitch me some new miracle essential oil or a makeup kit or tell me about the key to financial freedom. I’m here to ask them “What the Fuck?”
Cristen: Speaking of what the fuck — I didn’t realize before listening to The Dream that I grew up in an MLM house! My parents were briefly into Amway ... then they moved on to some obscure vitamin company … Were they being duped by pyramid schemes, Caroline??
Caroline: Well, Cristen, legally, we can’t go around calling companies pyramid schemes.
Cristen: Sure, sure. But MLMs do tread a hazy legal line. According to the Federal Trade Commish, it’s against the law if a company only profits from what it calls “fees for participation” — like whatever starter kits of inventory those distributors have to buy
Caroline: Exactly. But the FTC rules are vague enough that especially shady MLMs can make their businesses look legit enough on paper, if not so much in their inspirational recruitment videos
[LuLaRoe Promo Video Clip]
Woman Voiceover: You are beautiful, amazing, powerful, loving. You are smart, compassionate, confident, free. You are worthy, fearless, inspired with purpose. By connecting, “you” has become “we.” We are a team. Building a community. Making a difference … through social retail. We are pioneers changing the world through love, purpose, confidence, trust and growth. We are LuLaRoe.
Cristen: Now is this LuLaRoe a motivational speakers bureau? An edibles company?? It honestly sounds like they’re selling bullshit.
Caroline: Well, to you and me, yes. But for a lot of folks, it sounds like a golden opportunity! Cristen, there are around 6 million Americans who work as MLM distributors. Three-quarters of them are women. And they’re inspired enough by these companies’ products and marketing materials that they’re willing to spend money to make money … or at least try to.
Cristen: Right. Like, let’s say you saw that LuLaRoe video we just heard and decided, you know what? I’m gonna give it a go
Jane Marie: It's pitched as like, this is your own business on Main Street, but as a distributor, you had to buy a $5,000 mystery box of knitwear where you didn't get to choose the patterns or styles or anything. It was five grand right off the bat, and on their books, that looks like a lot of demand, you know? But what ends up happening in most cases is that there's no customer base because a lot of these products are things we can get at the grocery store or, you know, there's nothing special about the product. The thing that is special is the opportunity to be a business owner. So then folks go to their nearest and dearest and say, will you join me in this effort?
Caroline: Well, so basically what you're saying is that the companies, the larger companies are benefiting purely from the would-be representatives purchasing all of this stuff up front. And who cares if they end up selling it?
Jane Marie: Right and I'm not the only person or the first person to be saying that. There's multiple studies backing that up. And the FTC understands that like - that - you know, that is what's happening. And that's what makes it a pyramid scheme is that your money is all coming from within the organization. And at the very bottom rungs of an MLM are just a bunch of people who come in, spend the fee to get started. Fail miserably because there's no market for the thing that they're selling and move on. And then there's a huge line of people behind them who are also enticed by the idea that they could be a one percenter. Which is literal, a little bit less than one percent of people who do MLMs make any money. So. That's really enticing to a lot of people.
Caroline: Yeeeah — like an old coworker of mine from years ago, Cristen. She was pretty unhappy with her job and wasn’t making enough money … so she basically drained her entire savings account to buy a Mary Kay starter kit.
Cristen: OK well did she roll up in a pink Mary Kay Cadillac six months later, flush with cosmetics cash??
Caroline: That would be a hard no. Like 99% of people who get involved with MLMs … she flopped
Cristen: I mean this in all sincerity, Caroline, part of me admires the sheer boldness it takes to bet on such impossible odds. Just thinking about it makes me anxious!
Caroline: That’s something I wanted to ask Jane Marie about - why so many women are willing to take that leap. She had spoken to a few professors who had studied the appeal of MLMs.
Jane Marie: There’s like a breakdown of two major personality types where some people are shown like the income income disclosure statement, which for a lot of these companies just lays out like what are your chances of being a millionaire? And a lot of people look at the chances, which are almost zero, but there's a chance. And they're not told that the the millionaires in the company are all the founders and the relatives of the founders. But in the graph that is shown to them that there's a possibility to become a millionaire, there are people who say, great. That can be me. And then there are a lot of people who look at the income disclosure statement and say like, whoa, the chances of this working are so, so, so low. I need to run away so fast. I think it's similar to the mindset of folks who play the lottery and and gamblers. And look, I like a slot machine as much as anyone else. I love a slot machine. Actually recently I learned Keno, and it was awesome.
Caroline: Good. Good, glad.
Jane Marie: But I wasn't expecting to make a career out of it!
Cristen: It might be next to impossible for individual distributors to make a living from an MLM. But the companies themselves? Oh, they’re raking it in. In 2017, the top three direct-sales companies in the US — Amway, Avon and Herbalife — reported at least $4 billion in revenue each.
Caroline: Meanwhile, they often purposely avoid tracking how much of that is coming from outside consumers, and how much is from their own distributors. And remember — most of those distributors are women
Jane Marie: I think that a lot of these institutions that rely on scamming people look for vulnerable populations in general. And so then we do have to talk about gender. Right. Like vulnerable populations being the people who have to stay home and make the babies. Or, you know, there's there's pockets of folks, women, all over the world, but in our country, like military wives who are just holding down the fort and want a little bit of money. Same thing with like highly religious communities where people are not encouraged to work outside of the home. So I think on the victim side, women are particularly vulnerable.
Caroline: That makes sense …
Jane Marie: And a lot of the products are aimed at women because they're beauty stuff and wellness stuff, and wellness stuff is often fitness stuff or weight loss stuff. So it's not - it's not like a coincidence. You know, that like - like I've read two different statistics, 34, 37 percent of MLM products are wellness products. And wellness products are really just about like losing weight and trying to be more beautiful. And so it's designed to appeal to - to female potential recruits. So gross.
Cristen: Jane Marie doesn’t take issue with the mostly women selling stuff for these companies. They’re the ones effectively getting scammed.
Caroline: She’s more focused on the largely men at the top taking advantage of their distributors’ need for cash.
Jane Marie: You know, DeAnne, who supposedly started LuLaRoe, doesn't own her company. Her husband does. And if you look at the companies that we - we've profiled, I mean, Tupperware. Earl Tupper. Right. And he kicked Brownie Wise, the one who made the company famous, he kicked her out. Gave her $30 grand. Sold the company for millions of dollars like a couple months later. And she dies in obscurity. You've got William Penn Patrick of Holiday Magic. You've got Glen Turner, of Koscot Interplanetary, which is one of my favorite names of any MLM ever. You've got DeVos and Van Andel of Amway. The list goes on and on and on. Dudes love starting MLMs.
Caroline: Sidenote — that’s the DeVos family… as in US Education Secretary Betsy Devos. She’s married to Amway’s former CEO and she’s daughter-in-law to the company’s co-founder.
Cristen: And Caroline when Jane Marie’s talking about dudes loving to start MLMs, she’s talking WHITE dudes, to be specific.
Jane Marie: You're gonna make bank preying upon vulnerable populations. And I think if you're in a vulnerable population, that's harder to justify to yourself. I don't know how - how Michelle at Limelife does it. I know that Mary Kay did it with the help of Jesus.
Caroline: Another dude, another dude. There you have it.
Jane Marie: Another dude. That's right.
Caroline: So if folks are still toying with the idea of trying to sell some of this stuff … what should they be looking out for?
Jane Marie: Ask for an income disclosure statement. A lot of these companies are now putting them out as like a gesture of good faith. But if you read them very closely, you'll see how abysmal the numbers are and and how basically impossible it is. You know, if you see that there are - there are numbers that seem impressive, but think about it for a second, if you're about to sign up. Like Rodin and Fields, for example, claims to have hundreds of thousands of representatives. Well, that's not necessarily a company you want to get involved with because that is a saturated market. So that's a - that's a warning sign. Secondly, if they are an MLM, it's a warning sign. Like just - just operate like a regular business. And the promise that you can achieve wealth beyond anything you've ever imagined with very little money down, no experience necessary and with a product that you have to do a lot of education about, which in the end is usually something you can get at the grocery store — just follow your heart, your heart knows that this is nonsense.
Caroline: Good advice for avoiding MLMs AND for dating successfully, Cristen!
Cristen: Yes! Be sure to ask for an income disclosure statement up front, ladies!!
Caroline: Heard that. When we come back, we’re looking at the wider world of fraud, and Laci Mosely tells us about her favorite scam goddesses.
Cristen: Don’t go away.
[Midroll ad 1]
Cristen: We're back, and Caroline, we’ve talked about a number of different kinds of dubious businesses that especially appeal to women. But the scam landscape - the scamscape? - stretches far beyond MLMs
Caroline: And like MLMs, the "scamscape" is also pyramid shaped. You've got Martha Stewart's insider trading and white-collar fraud at the top. Then there's stuff like gift card fraud and romance scams in the middle. And at the very bottom, there's yknow, taking toilet paper home from the office.
Cristen: Take a wild guess at likeliest to be pulling real-deal fraud. According to Stanford University’s Financial Fraud Research Center, consumer fraudsters tend to be white, middle-class dudes “who are fixated on an image of wealth and success that they are unable to achieve in the mainstream …”
Caroline: Mm. Very specific. They’re also less likely to see their actions as bad or criminal — more like the fault of a naive victim. Aka, they’re just gaslighting douchelords.
Cristen: But when it comes to who gets scammed, I've gotta confess that I had assumed that women were victimized more often because —
Caroline: Life?
Cristen: — it tends to be the case. In fact, men and women are equally likely to get scammed … it just depends on what type of scam we’re talking about. So, Caroline I did some more digging and put together a little game for you, I'm calling Who Wants to Scam a Millionaire!
[Gameshow music]
Cristen: [Regis Philben voice] Are you excited to play Who Wants to Scam a Millionaire?
Caroline: I’m so excited!
Cristen: Well, Caroline, to start off, I know you love some history.
Caroline: Ooh yes!
Cristen: So we gotta talk about some lady scammers in history
Caroline: OK
Cristen: OK? Question 1. In Victorian England, which was the least common form of scam ladies pulled: forgery, blackmail or fake aristocrat-ing
Caroline: The least common … ooh … forgery, since no women knew how to write back then.
[buzzer]
Cristen: Mm, unfortunately, Caroline, the answer is fake aristocrat-ing. Yes, there were some women who pulled class rank and pretended to be wealthy to get wealthy. But due to women's societal submission, it was really hard to pull big cons. So during that era, lady-scamming usually involved things like forgery or blackmailing rich people that you worked for
Caroline: Oh.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Well there we go.
Cristen: OK, question 2. One prolific Victorian era scammer went by the pseudonym Madam Rachel. Was she: A fake heiress, a fake clairvoyant or a fake beauty mogul?
Caroline: Oh, uh, a fake clairvoyant?
Cristen: Oh!
[Buzzer]
Cristen: Wrong again!
C+C: Laughter
Caroline: Uhhhh
Cristen: I would’ve guessed clairvoyant, too
Caroline: I mean that was big back then!
Cristen: Yeah, and — AND — there was this thing called hocussing that some ladies of the day pulled where they would —
Caroline: Dress up like Bette Middler?
Cristen: Essentially, and then they would sing show tunes until people threw money at them to stop. But no, so, Madame Rachel, aka Sarah Rachel Russell, was a fake beauty mogul, and she made a killing in the 1870s by convincing people that all these toiletries and perfumes she made were used by the royal family in England
Caroline: I’m convinced that’s what Glossier is
Cristen: It might be! Then she got herself in a real mess because there was this Downton Abbey Edith character, kind of a real plain Jane, that she ended up bilking out of so much money because she promised to make her beautiful and make men fall in love with her but ended up giving her a terrible skin rash and Edith took her to court!
Caroline: Oh! Oh well, OK.
Cristen: Yeah. So, that was her downfall.
Caroline: All right, zero for two.
Cristen: Zero for two, but hey. Let’s bring it to the present day
Caroline: OK
Cristen: Question No. 3. Today’s romance scam victims tend to be middle-aged, well-educated women. #DirtyJohn. Which of the following characteristics do romance scam victims NOT have in common: being impulsive, being kind or being trusting?
Caroline: Being kind?
[Magical bell sound]
Cristen: You got it! You got it!
Caroline: Oh!
Cristen: I’m so genuinely excited for you
Caroline: Thank you!! I never win anything, and I’ve won this question
Cristen: OK, so, all right. This might sound counterintuitive, and this isn’t to say victims are unkind, but rather that they aren't notably kind. You gotta be a touch impulsive and clearly trusting to buy into a romance scam. But researchers think that they demonstrate lower levels of kindness because romance scammers tend to isolate their victims and even pit them against friends and family members. And so researchers think that kinder people might have stronger social networks and thus be less likely to start those conflicts. Interesting, right?
Caroline: Yeah, OK. It’s layered. Really layered.
Cristen: So layered. OK this one — oh. Love this question. Question 4. Which of the following is NOT a job romance scammers often pretend to have: in the military, working on an oil rig, one of the Property Brothers twins
Caroline: I HATE the Property Brothers. The answer is C.
Cristen: yes!
[Magical bell sound]
Cristen: Yes! Although the Property Brothers twins might be scammers somehow. How did one of them end up with Zooey Deschanel? Um according to -
Caroline: She’s a scam, too
Cristen: She is kind of a scam. According to the FTC, romance scammers often pose as members of the military, oil riggers and doctors working abroad. So lovers beware.
Caroline: Yeah, if a man says he’s always gone … and the reason seems only halfway legitimate …
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Buyer beware
Cristen: “I would come, I’m just stuck on this oil rig”
Caroline: I actually know someone who works on an oil pipeline, and he legit is gone for a long time.
Cristen: And he IS a prince. He just needed money for his visa
Caroline: He’s from Marietta, Georgia, but he’s somehow a Nigerian prince
Cristen: All right, final question, Caroline. How many Mary Kay makeup distributors (aka “independent beauty consultants”) pull in six figures a year? Is it 30, 300, or trick question, none of them do.
Caroline: Mm, none. C. None. Zero.
Cristen: Caroline, I’m sorry to say …
Caroline: WHAT?
[Buzzer]
Cristen: You are incorrect. The answer is 300 distributors make at least six figures. However, keep in mind that the company claims to have well over 2 million distributors around the world
Caroline: Oh, we’re talkin global?
Cristen: Yeah
Caroline: There is a woman who lives around the corner from me who does have a pink Cadillac SUV
Cristen: She’s one of the 300! Perhaps…
Caroline: I’d watch that movie called 300
Cristen: Me too!
Caroline: So how’d I do?
Cristen: You got two right, Caroline, and fortunately that means you do win a giant check that will be on its way!
Caroline: Thank you!
Cristen: Thank you! And this has been Who Wants to Scam a Millionaire!
[Game show music]
Cristen: Great job, Caroline!
Caroline: Thank you, thank you so much… I really need that giant check, Cristen. OK, y’all, making fun and games outta fraud brings us to our next guest. Laci Mosley also hosts a podcast about scams. But whereas Jane Marie on The Dream investigates more top-down fraud that preys on the little guy, Laci is all about the little guys scamming to get theirs
Laci: So Scam Goddess is a podcast dedicated to fraud - we’re a fraud-cast, if you will. The most important part of the show for me is praising scammers and people who break the law in fun and hilarious ways, because I just think there's a confidence that comes with being a scammer that we could all adapt a little bit.
Cristen: And Laci’s no stranger to running a small con herself …
Laci: I'm a scammer because I started to realize, especially when I moved to Los Angeles, like it's not about what you have, it's about how much people think you have. And I think instead of living my life like, oh, I need to prove things, I was like, no, I just need to act like I belong wherever I go. And that's what I do. And it's worked very well. Also, I don't like rules. Everything is made up. Stay woke. And you know, as long as a certain amount of people follow rules, I don't have to.
Caroline: What do you think is the difference between like scamming and just being resourceful and having a come up?
Laci: So a come up is like -like if a company accidentally, you know, refunds you like $300 for something that you definitely purchased, but it's an accident. Like you don't have to call and be like, hey, guys, you know, corporate America is ass and capitalism is shit. So, you know, if you accidentally get $300 from a company, you know, you just keep it moving. You just. And that's a come up. Right. I think a scam is - is calling the company and getting $300 from them by lying to them. Like that would be the difference.
Cristen: So what would you say are the qualities of a successful scammer?
Laci: A successful scammer has to be insanely confident to the point of delusion. That's a part of it. You have to be charismatic. You have to be endearing. You have to be a people person. And you have to genuinely enjoy fraud and lying to people and getting away with it. And then also, you have to be relentless. You have to be the type of person that like when the chips are down, you keep going.
Cristen: This is reminding me of one thing that really blew my mind about the fake heiress Anna Delvey.
Laci: Yeah.
Cristen: Who I believe you talk about in the first episode of Scam Goddess.
Laci: I do! And I love and respect that queen so much.
Cristen: OK, here's the thing that really surprised me about her is that you hear about these kinds of like hot, like super rich, like elite circles that she was in and like the kind of people she was hanging out with, like these very like, you know, rich, like, I guess, quote unquote, cool people in New York. And then to see a photo of her. She just - I was kind of surprised that she got so far with such flat hair. I'm just going to say that.
Laci: No, I know exactly what you mean. But here's the thing, though. Some rich people, you know, that's their aesthetic. It's just like how you will see Bill Gates and some new balances. And you're like, sir, like, what is this? What are you doing? You know, some people are. And then she also showed it in different ways, like she would tip people like $100 everywhere, like she would flaunt her wealth in other ways. And I think sometimes, like, you know, some rich girls are vain like that. Like they want the friend who is like a little less cute. Like, if you look at friend groups, especially duos, duos are always problematic to me. Like, I think friend groups should be like at least four people. But when it's just two, it's always one girl, they always look kind of the same, but one looks better. This is always the fact. So like, I feel like she was the, you know, the friend who wasn't as cute but could roll because she, you know, had the swag and she convinced everybody. And I loved it. I loved the confidence of it. Also, like, I'm never gonna be mad at somebody scamming the rich because rich people have to scam to become rich. So it is only fair. It is the circle of life.
Caroline: It's just evening things out.
Laci: Exactly. It's like, look, I don't want to pay taxes, so we got to rob you. Like don't. This is tax. This is - I'm Uncle Sam, and I want you.
Caroline: Y’all heard it — scam the rich. When we come back, we’re gonna hear more about the scam that’s holding us ALL down
Cristen: Plus, Laci tells us about her bias for lady scammers.
Caroline: Stick around.
[Midroll ad 2]
Laci: I hope with this show you can listen to it and be like, oh, I can do anything, you know, even if that is crime. Sometimes people write me and they say, Laci, thank you so much. You inspired me to start running my own scams. And I'm like, good for you. Now, if you go to jail, don't don't cite me, OK? I had nothing to do with that. I want you to do small, petty fraud.
Cristen: We’re back with Laci Mosley, comedian, actor and host of Scam Goddess
Caroline: What makes a good scam target because on Scam Goddess, you refer to the despometer.
Laci: Yes. How desperate are you.
Caroline: So what is that — Yeah. So what is that and what makes a good target?
Laci: So the despometer is all about like how desperate are you? And we've all been in times in our lives where we were really desperate and we did some shit that we probably wouldn't normally do because we're like, I just need a win. You know, I've - I've gone to a - a back alley audition, you know, I’m like, right this way down this alleyway? OK cool cool cool, it's kind of dark, but that's fine. You know, I really could use this credit. Like, oh, we've all done things because we were - or, you know, in a time crunch. That's also a great thing. If you can catch somebody when they really don't have a lot of time to think about something. And that's great. So the greatest scams are operated early in the morning, very late at night, where you don't really have a lot of time to think or you might be disoriented or you might be tired. You know, those are the things that the makings. Also, there's different types of scams or marks, really. So there's some marks who you can appeal to their sense of benevolence or guilt. And it's like they feel badly for you and that's how you get them. And that happens a lot in romance scams, which is so crazy to me because romance scams made up like $144 million of like assets stolen in 2018.
Caroline: Oh my god, like the FTC has an entire page warning people about romance scams.
Laci: And you know what's crazy about that is that they have a web instructional video on their page and it is a woman. And it's like if your lover is someone you've never met before and they ask you for money, don't give it to them. And I said why is it not a man on the air and then I realized that women taking money from men is not considered a scam. That's considered a transaction. And I agree with that. OK. Men are trash. And if I take your money as a man, I did not scam you. You were lucky enough to be around me. That is the payment. But for women. Yeah. You should not ever have to pay for dick. Dick is free! You get dick everywhere. It's honestly too much. So they warn women a lot about these scams. So that's like the guilt, benevolence kind of thing. Then there's also people who appeal - you appeal to their narcissism so it's just like it depends on what type of mark you're dealing with. What scam is going to work.
Caroline: OK, Cristen, step 1, appeal to men’s narcissism to scam them, got it …
Cristen: And step 2, just own it.
Laci: Anna Delvey gave me one of the most beautiful quotes of my life. She said, you know, “I am not a good person.” And I was like, damn.
Caroline: Just own it.
Laci: If more people could just admit that they are not a good person. You know. How - that must be freeing. When you are evil, you live longer. And I talk about that a lot on my podcast, too. I'm a turn evil when I turn 50. So can really get mileage.
Caroline: It pickles you. It like keeps you.
Laci: Yeah. Because like, when you are evil. You sleeping good, honey, because you're not worried about nobody. Cause you evil. You know, right?
Cristen: Oh that's like. It's all of that like overblown confidence, right. Like you have to be - you have to kind of maintain that delusion a la like an Elizabeth Holmes, like, oh, no, everything's totally fine with that blood test.
[Interview clip]
Elizabeth Holmes: Every time you create something new, there should be questions. And to me that’s a sign that you’ve actually done something that’s transformative.
Cristen: Why do you think that we eat it up so much whenever we hear about scams in particular?
Laci: I think because we're reaching a point in the world where we're starting to all realize that this shit is a scam. And I think that really happened like when Social Security bottomed out and the housing market fell apart in 2008 and millennials couldn't get jobs. And, you know, you're seeing millennials on the street, like, I got a degree from M.I.T., hire me. And I feel like when that started to happen, we all realized it's the American dream that we have been sold was a lie and it is not sustainable. And that's where “OK, Boomer” comes from. Like we are mad at old people. Like we hands for the old. You know, I've bout - I'm about ready to go to the nursing home just like fight everybody, like put y’all walkers up because we ‘bout to fight. OK. Because you did this to me, Gertie. This is your fault. You know what I mean, so now I think that we all love to hear about a good scam story because we're like, we got scammed, you know what I mean. College is - the price of it is a scam. Not having universal health care is a fucking scam. And meanwhile, we are out this money this in the other countries for wars and shit and they'll buy all these damn guns. But people are dying. We all know it's a fucking scam.
Cristen: Well, one thing we were we were also thinking about as a team when we were kind of talking about this episode was feeling, you know, a special sort of pride for - for female scammers in particular. And we were wondering if - if you - if you felt a similar bias toward lady scammers.
Laci: I feel a bias for lady scammers and scammers who are of color, especially black. Just because society has been so horrible to women, continues to be so horrible to women and to people of color that like if you're getting over on people, I feel like you are owed that - you deserve it.
Caroline: So are there any scam goddess tips that you would like to leave our listeners with?
Laci: Sure. One, cancel your Hulu. If you cancel Hulu, they'll give you like three months free if you try to leave. They'll give you some free months. Two, you know, stay confident. Everyone should believe in themselves to the capacity of like a mediocre white man. You know what I mean, we should all have that kind of confidence. So if you feel it at your life and anytime you can't do it. I want you to summon Chad. Just think, what would Chad do? WWCD, OK. What would Chad do, and do what Chad would do! And just. Yeah. I mean, I think those are my tips. Those are my tops.
C+C: Cancel Hulu
Cristen: Stay confident
Caroline: Channel Chad.
Cristen: Channel Chad. Yeah. Yeah.
Laci: Yeah. Those I think those are great for everyone — oh, here's one last one. They can't tow your car if you're inside of it.
Cristen: Buckle up. Lock the doors. Stay put.
Caroline: Pack some snacks.
Laci: Don't leave your car. They cannot, even if they have it chained up, they cannot tow a car with a person inside.
[Music]
Cristen: To get more Laci Moseley in your life, listen to her podcast Scam Goddess and catch her on the sitcom Florida Girls. And be sure to catch the second season of Jane Marie’s podcast, The Dream! It’s out now, and it’s all about the scammy side of the wellness industry …
Caroline: All right y’all, we want to hear your thoughts on scams — have you pulled one? Fallen for one? Earned a pink Cadillac? Tell us all about it. Email us at hello@unladylike.co, hit us up on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and find the thread for this episode.
Cristen: Head over to our site, unladylike.co to find this episode’s sources and transcript. Plus, while you’re there, you can pick up some sweet Unladylike merch AND sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly update on actually good news about women in the world.
Caroline: Are you a gig-economy or service-industry worker who's sick of sexist workplace bullshit and not sure how to deal? We want to hear from you!
Cristen: Email us a voice memo or leave us a voicemail (262-8-GALPAL) with your stories and questions for the chance to have your voice on the show (and get your questions answered!).
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Caroline: Sam Lee and Nora Ritchie are the producers of Unladylike. Abigail Keel is our senior producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing, sound design, and additional music is by Casey Holford. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.
Cristen: We are your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: and Caroline Ervin. Next wee k…
Esme Wang: I really wanted to be able to be seen as high functioning and I wanted to be able to be seen as normal. It scared me that I had these symptoms that I couldn't control.
Cristen: We’re talking to writer Esme Wang about her experience navigating mental health. Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike so you don’t miss this episode. Find us in Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Caroline: And remember, got a problem?
Cristen: Get Unladylike.
[Stinger]
Laci: I was in The Wedding Year with like Sarah Hyland and Wanda Sykes and lots of people that's on Amazon. Put it on, watch half of it. Start having sex. I'll be in the back talking and that will give me comfort.
