Transcript | Ep. 75: How to Sober Up
[Stinger]
[Voicemail]
Adrienne: Hi, this is Adrienne from New Orleans. I used to be a serious drinker, like I'd get off work on Friday stay hammered til Sunday. But over the years, it got to be a lot less fun, and one day, I just kind of stopped drinking, and I don't miss being drunk all the time. I'll still have a cocktail from time to time, but I really don't need it to have a good time cause, bitch, I am the good time! Thanks, y'all. Have a great day.
[Theme music]
Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike, the show that finds out what happens when women break the rules. I’m Caroline.
Cristen: I’m Cristen. And Adrienne “I-am-the-good-time” from New Orleans is my new self-confidence role model, Caroline. OK, BUT. Question for you: How would you describe your relationship status with alcohol?
Caroline: Oh, we’re friends. Yeah, we’re friends. We see each other two to three times a week. Not nearly as much as we used to. And, now that I’m 36 that’s kinda where I like to keep it. What about you?
Cristen: I would describe it as an ex that I’m on good terms with. You know, we can have a good time when we see each other but too much time together leads to anxiety hangovers. Like, my mental health really just can not handle heavy drinking anymore. And this question - about your relationship status to alcohol - is one we recently posed to Unladylike listeners to help us make sense of something you and I started noticing within our own friend circles and very much so on social media.
Caroline: Yes! It seems like more women are openly taking time-outs from drinking or breaking up with it for good.
Cristen: And while not drinking might seem like a straightforward choice on the outside, for most sober unladies we heard from ... it's complicated
[Voicemail]
Ida: My name is Ida. I’m calling from Madison, Wisconsin, and I have been sober for about a year now, and it is hard, and when your work kind of mandates happy hours and you still have to go and drink with your co-workers and when you tell people that you don't drink you’re kind of looked at like you're crazy person.
Cristen: Ida’s right. Caroline, as you and I know, drinking can definitely feel hard to escape. It’s the social lubricant of adulthood, Caroline!
Caroline: In my early 20s, I was working the 4 to midnight shift at a newspaper, and that meant barhopping after every shift. If I HAD wanted to skip out on it, A) people would’ve looked at me weird, just like Ida said, and B) … I basically wouldn’t have had a social life.
Cristen: Yeah, this is also reminding me of when I got on anti-anxiety medication a few years back. Initially, I had zero taste for alcohol and also wanted to give my brain a chance to adjust the meds. And when I hung out with friends one weekend and they clocked that I was only drinking La Croix, I still remember the truly concerned looks I got
Caroline: OK, so you weren’t drinking at the time and were technically sober. But “sobriety” can mean different things to different people.
Cristen: Right! There are the folks who "don't drink" as a matter of personal taste or faith, or the folks who "can't drink" for medical and/or medicated reasons.
Caroline: Then, you've got the not-drinking-right-now-ers, aka the sober-curious. They tend to be loud, proud, and in it as part of a wellness lifestyle
Cristen: And then of course, there are the sober folks — who might identity as "sober alcoholics” or “in recovery.” And for them it isn't so much a choice, but a necessity to stay alive, get healthy, or improve their quality of life.
[Voicemail]
Jordan: My name is Jordan and I am an alcoholic. That's how they make you do it at meetings. For someone like me, the recent Instagram trend of sobriety is both helpful and infuriating. Part of what's infuriating is that I'm a person who has had a hell of a time getting sober, and when somebody struggling with addiction turns to the Internet for actual help and instead finds the 13 Most Helpful Sobriety Bitches You Need to Follow Right Now, it's not ideal.
Caroline: Now, who knows — maybe those 13 Sobriety Bitches are somebody’s role models.
Cristen: Maybe!
Caroline: But it's understandable that unladies like Jordan might feel like their hardfought recovery is being co-opted.
Cristen: So today, we’re not here to write a one-size-fits-all alcohol prescription. Instead, we’re spending this episode exploring the grayer layers and spotlighting some major themes of gender and drinking we heard from y’all, the Unladylike listeners.
Caroline: It’s all to find out: How do we choose our no-booze choices? And what happens when women sober up?
[Stinger]
Caroline: So Cristen, Here’s the thing: it’s totally normal for women to drink. Shocker! But ladylike rules still apply to how we’re expected to do it.
Cristen: Yeah, they go something like: Drink modestly, less than men and preferably not beer.
Caroline: And while proper ladies aren’t supposed to get wasted, sobering up might be more unladylike. It implies that you can’t or don’t want to follow those rules at all.
Cristen: Here’s listener Barbara.
[Voicemail]
Barbara: I loathed dry January. I mean, I would see this pop up in my Facebook feed, and I would be so angry and annoyed, and I'm not giving up the rare times that I get a chance to sit down and have a drink. But the truth is that I was terrified of not being able to stop on the way home to have a drink. And that was not something that I was interested in examining. What I can say now is I am three years sober and that I'm not going to drink today.
Cristen: Caroline, I can totally empathize with Barbara’s initial bristling at Dry January. Years back, when it first started becoming a thing, it also put me on the defensive, like, oh well aren’t you so perfect with your not drinking or a month and loving it?
Caroline: Yeah, one thing that rang loud and clear in the voicemails and letters we got from sober unladies is how not drinking means dealing with other people’s opinions. Like, assuming you’re on a high horse or you’re bound to be a buzzkill
Cristen: Exactly. So take for instance, listener Kayla from Minnesota. Growing up, her parents didn't drink because they just weren’t into the taste, and being around drunk people has always made Kayla uncomfortable.
[Voicemail]
Kayla: Although I don't judge anyone else for drinking, it's still inhibited my ability to make friends in college and beyond. So now at 28 years old, I do have an occasional drink in a social situation because it's easier to simply give in to social pressures rather than fight them, but I do wish that those pressures didn't exist.
Cristen: Those pressures can be super invasive, too. Caroline, it reminds me of how some people interpret baby bumps or visible tattoos as invitations to touch you. It seems like folks feel especially entitled to know why a woman is sober or not drinking.
Caroline: Yeah, it blew my mind how much that came up in all the messages we got for this episode … like, y’all get grilled if you pass up a cocktail.
Cristen: And I admit that I have been that griller before, Caroline! And I hate that in retrospect, it’s fucked up that there have been times I didn’t want to just take no for an answer because our reasons for not drinking are often really personal, and not things you should have to disclose to people on demand.
Caroline: For instance, we heard from sexual assault survivors who prefer to not drink or be around drunk people because it’s triggering. Or, from other folks - who have chronic illnesses or allergies, and alcohol just doesn’t agree with them.
Cristen: This social side-eyeing of sobriety doesn’t always stop when you leave the bar either. Sometimes, the claptrap is coming from inside the house!
Caroline: A listener named T who grew up in a heavy-drinking Irish family, gradually lost interest in booze. And she shared the extreme length she went to … to get her family to lay off her about it..
[Voicemail]
T: So I stopped drinking in 2014. And at that time, my therapist suggested that one of the strategies I should use was to tell people that I wasn't drinking because I had a heart condition, because I am on medication for something else. And people would just assume that when they saw me taking meds that I was taking heart meds. So that was what I did at that time. And I even told my family, my friends, everybody — to this day, they all still think that I have a heart condition that’s why I don’t drink.
Cristen: And Caroline ... faking a heart condition still doesn’t stop people from prying.
[Voicemail]
T: They sometimes will say, oh, well, you can have just one. Well, for goodness sake, if I really did have some kind of serious heart condition and here you are telling a stranger, oh, no, it's fine. I know more than your doctor. I know more than your pharmacist. I know more than you about your own body.
Caroline: Truly wild! And this gets me thinking, though, Cristen: Is this kind of scrutiny different for WOMEN?
Cristen: Ok, this is something I’ve been thinking about in my personal life ever since I got married. Because there are times when I don’t really want to drink, but I go ahead and order a cocktail anyway because Caroline, I know the question that’s coming if I don’t. It’s something listener AJ from Colorado has had to deal with as well ….
[Voicemail]
AJ: There have been plenty of times I've been out with friends and not wanted to drink for a variety of reasons or just not feeling like it, but I'm in my mid-30s, and I'm married. So the default assumption is I must be pregnant. It was annoying when I wasn't pregnant. I just didn't feel like drinking, but it was also very annoying when I was pregnant and didn't want to tell anyone yet. And it's so frustrating to be reduced to reproductive capabilities as if that's the only reason I could be ordering iced tea instead of a cocktail with dinner.
Cristen: Hear, hear, AJ! It IS frustrating. PLUS, when it comes to pregnancy and alcohol, there’s also a chance that someone isn’t drinking because they’re trying to conceive … which is also none of anyone else’s business.
Caroline: But society’s booze cruise gets even weirder with motherhood. Yes, folks, we’re talking about sassy-mom-wine culture. You know the memes — like Coffee, Wine and Amazon Prime, or “It’s a pump and dump kind of day!”
Cristen: And you’ve definitely seen it IRL in the wine aisle, with brands like Mad Housewife, Mommy’s Time Out and Somebody-Plz-Shove-These-Babies-Back-Up-My-Ute-Pronto! … It’s a pinot noir.
Caroline: Here’s listener and new mom Samantha from New Brunswick, Canada:
[Voicemail]
Samantha: I stopped drinking as my New Year’s Resolution. I know that sounds cheesy but it’s been a long time coming. I’ve just found that the mom culture literally revolved around wine, and that's been something that I find so incredibly toxic and weird. I mean every time any moms get together, I feel like everything revolves around liquor, and it's a little bit difficult because the next day you have your baby and you can't, well in my case, I just can't be fully present for my family and for my kids when I had drank the day before. But I think it takes a lot of effort and time to figure out what your relationship with booze is because I think there is such a stigma out there. No one wants to be called an alcoholic.
Caroline: But Cristen, wine-mom culture actually isn’t new or coincidental. It’s the result of DECADES of targeted marketing.
Cristen: Right! So, back in the 1960s and 70s, wine makers were like UGH, this beverage is only drunk at fancy restaurants, what can we do? Answer: Get the housewives on board. They were tapping into the real housewives before Bravo was even a glimmer in Andy Cohen’s eye!
[Archival Clip]
In a moderate amount, alcohol is like a sedative, a tranquilizer. It relaxes you, makes you more congenial. This helps make a gathering cheerful and friendly.
Caroline: Next thing you know, you’ve got wine samples being given out in grocery stores and women’s magazines offering tips on how to serve wine at home. In 1977, McCall’s magazine even promoted an “Anti-Stress Diet” that heavily featured wine.
Cristen: Today’s wine-mom culture also exemplifies how women’s proper place — and proper drinking place — has always been in the home.
Caroline: Ohh yes. We've got a LOT patriarchal bullshit to pump n dump when it comes to female drinking habits.
Cristen: Stick around!
[Midroll ad 1]
Caroline: We’re back. And so far, we've been talking about how unladies today navigate not drinking.
Cristen: But y’all, there's still loads of gender baggage that's often left out of conversations around women, alcohol, and sobriety.
Caroline: Cristen, sounds like it’s time to unpack that claptrap!
[Clap clap]
Cristen: Unpack the claptrap is the part of the show where we uncork patriarchy’s sour grapes to find out why things are the way they are. Specifically, how ladylike rules got wrapped up with alcohol and why getting drunk is one of the most enduring white male privileges.
Caroline: Yes. So, strap on your petticoats and let’s go back in time to Colonial America. Back then, it was all about the booze, partly because it was safer to drink than water. And brewing cider and ale at home was actually a standard domestic duty for women.
Cristen: Caroline, they were kinda like the original wine-moms, too … minus the sass. For a long time, it wasn’t taboo for women to take a nip at home for relaxation or as “medicine” for aches and pains.
Caroline: But by the 1800s, things started to spiral. Alcohol production had moved from the kitchen to the factory, which meant there was more and cheaper booze available. Men getting hammered with their bros at taverns and pubs became the new manly way to unwind after a workday.
Cristen: Meanwhile, their wives and children bore the brunt. Remember - domestic violence and abuse wasn’t criminalized at the time. If your alcoholic husband lost his job, it’s not like women could become the breadwinner instead. Wives didn’t even have legal rights to initiate divorce!
Caroline: Enter the Temperance movement! In the 1820s, the American Temperance Society claimed men were drinking 15 TIMES more than women, and that men’s drinking was endangering the family unit’s survival.
Cristen: The white, middle-class Christian gals leading the Temperance movement blamed this "demon rum" for corrupting American culture. Banning booze became a moral high road and the ladylike thing to do.
Caroline: In fact, more white women supported Prohibition than the suffrage movement. Ladies wanted to protect the home, not get involved in men’s business, aka politics.
Cristen: And in part because those Temperance gals didn’t pose a threat to patriarchal power at large, the movement was successful.
Caroline: Yeah, super successful. Like, constitution amendment successful. Prohibition went into effect in 1920 and alcohol was banned across the land!
Cristen: But pretty much as soon as alcohol became legal again in the US 13 years later, folks were like, but HOW will we protect fragile women (specifically white, middle-class women) from the evils of alcohol??!
Caroline: Answer: KEEP THEM OUT OF THE BARS!!
[Archival Clip]
Jim’s date, Judy, had never tasted liquor before, and soon, Judy catches the spirit of the thing. The boys can’t understand Judy. Only two drinks, and look at her!
Cristen: Yeah. Did y’all know that cities and towns across the country passed ordinances banning women from drinking establishments? And it was common for bars to post signs reading “no unescorted ladies will be served.” Caroline, bars were indeed the original man caves.
Caroline: Fast forward to the 1960s and 70s, (right around the time winemakers were convincing housewives to drink alone at home) and feminists were fed up. They were working 9 to 5s and wanted to have a drink in public, just like all the guys.
Cristen: So, in 1969, the National Organization for Women aka NOW staged "drink ins" at men's only bars and restaurants across the country. And finally, by the mid-1970s, most watering holes in the US had lifted their "no unescorted ladies allowed" rule.
Caroline: And it’s true that as women's social power has increased over the past century, so has our drinking. Like, as of 2018, women had all but closed the the drinking gender gap.
Cristen: But sober spaces haven’t traditionally been all that inviting for women either. After all, it was a group of white, upper-middle class men who started Alcoholics Anonymous in the early 1930s.
Caroline: Now, AA remains the oldest and largest alcohol support group in the world to this day. But it’s still pretty male-focused. For instance, AA’s go-to recovery text, called The Big Book, exclusively uses he/him pronouns throughout, and the organization has actively resisted updating the language.
Cristen: Yeah. We heard about AA’s gender baggage from a number of sober Unladylike listeners, including Jordan, who you heard from at the top of the episode
[Voicemail]
Jordan: If you step into an AA meeting again, any meeting, any church basement. I guarantee you'll find another place full of middle aged men. Everything about AA is littered with patriarchal scripture. At my first meeting I was given a brochure called AA for the Woman and I held hands with 12 other men at the end feeling about as safe as being the drunk girl at a frat party.
Caroline: Those AA gender dynamics are partly why we’ve been noticing more women-led sobriety and sober-curious communities popping up on Instagram and just across social media.
Cristen: In fact, a lot of the who’s who in the so-called “new sobriety” space of influencers, dry bars, and nonalcoholic beverage brands are women … and most visibly, white women who are also connecting sobriety to feminism and the #MeToo movement.
Caroline: Yeah, it kinda hearkens back to the Temperance era when you have white ladies leading the charge against the drunken patriarchy.
Cristen: Totally. Plus though, the whole white-lady-ness that you and I noticed got us wondering whether the ways race and class can factor into sobriety are being overlooked.
Caroline: After the break, we’ll hear from three women who are dealing with those intersections head on .. and how they navigate sobriety.
Cristen: Stick around!
[Midroll ad 2]
[Voicemail]
Shayla Martin: I feel like I don't see enough black and brown people in the recovery communities that I'm in, because the conversation around sobriety and recovery and even the conversation around alcoholism and addiction is no longer and I don't know if it ever was targeted to us.
Cristen: We’re back. The voice you just heard is Shayla Martin, a writer who first caught my attention with an essay she wrote for Shondaland about being a black woman in recovery.
Caroline: In it, Shayla wrote that because the mental health industry is sooo predominantly white, it can be an intimidating space for a black woman.
Cristen: And it’s not just IRL spaces. Shayla sees it within the online sober-curious community, too.
[Voicemail]
Shayla: just this idea that like sober curiosity is being marketed and branded as this, like cute new thing, you know, it's definitely being marketed, in my opinion, to young, hip white people. I sort of liken it to like the Sex and the City set without the Cosmos. It's just kind of crazy to me that black and brown people are not getting access to the treatment they need for alcoholism, and now even the idea of sobriety and recovery is not being marketed to us either. Like, that’s just mind boggling to me.
Cristen: To be clear, Shayla is all for folks taking breaks from booze. To her, it’s the language, marketing and whitewashing of sobriety that’s the problem.
Caroline: So to go a little deeper on this, we also talked with Jocellyn Harvey, who got sober at 24. Jocellyn lives in very white Burlington, Vermont, and she writes about how being black can shape your recovery experience.
Cristen: So, we called her up over Skype.
Jocellyn: I drank for a ton of reasons, which I think most people can relate to, like, you know, if I - something really happy happened, I always drank or if I was sad, I would drink. But they're like everyone too has deeper reasons why they drink as well. And I never realized at the time that a lot of my drinking was tied to feeling anxious as a black person and just always being in very white spaces and wanting to feel like I was accepted and drinking a certain way and drinking certain things like helped me do that. It helped lessen my anxiety. I even have to check my politeness like I was just raised with manners. But sometimes I can tell when like I'm doing something a certain way because like, I want to look good for like the entire black community rather than just being like a polite, kind person.
Caroline: Well, how has your identity as a black woman intersected with and sort of shaped your entire recovery experience?
Jocellyn: Yes. That's like the million dollar question. In terms of, in terms of AA, cause, you know, people do ask about that like, oh, it's like a really, like, really white community. And yes, it's an extremely white community. However, I was adopted by a white family and raised in very white New England. So it wasn't like a huge culture shock to be able to, like, walk into that meeting. It was like, oh, OK. Like, I'm the only black person here. Story of my life, essentially. So it made it easier to go to meetings, I would say. And then the other things like how being black has shaped my recovery, really just the big one has been making sure I'm working with whether it's like a sponsor or a therapist or just talking to people that can like understand microaggressions that people go through. And then one that I am pretty like pro talking about is anger. And I even speak about that in relation to like all women, too, is that, you know, black women especially, you know, certain groups haven't really been like afforded the ability to be angry. It can be dangerous. It can hold you back in your career. It can be really frowned upon. So around like two and a half years sober, I realized how angry I was and that I wasn't expressing that. So if I'm like in spaces that are recovery based or even like spirituality, when people start like pooh poohing anger and how we should avoid it, I'm always very vocal about the fact that a lot of people haven't been able to express that and know what anger is like in their life and figuring out how to work with that. It is just different if you're a woman and there's another layer added to it when you're a minority.
Caroline: Our Unladylike producer Nora wanted to learn more about those layers, too.
Cristen: Hi Nora!
Nora: Hi ladies! So I called up Irina Gonzales, who has been sober for more than four years. She's an editor and writer living in Florida and she writes a lot about mental health in the Latinx community, especially in regards to alcohol and recovery.
Irina: There's a saying in Spanish, which is pretty much the same as in English, which is that you don't air your dirty laundry. And I think that that is taken very seriously in Latino culture in terms of, you know, you don't talk about your problems. There's also a very, very, very big stigma with like being the crazy one in the family, like the La Loca type thing. And I think that for many Latinos, that's really a fear, because you - you're always hearing about like not wanting to be like the crazy aunt and that kind of thing. So there's a lot of stigma surrounding just like talking about mental health. It's really not taken, seriously at all.
Nora: When you realized you had a problem, was it something you felt comfortable talking to your family about?
Irina: You know, mental health is not really a topic that ever came up in my family. And even now that I've been through rehab and recovery and I'm sober it's still something that we don't very frequently talk about. And I think that had a lot to do with how I felt and just not being able to handle a lot of the things I wasn't able to handle before getting sober.
Nora: Yeah, so Irina had always drunk socially when she was feeling anxious. But when she landed her dream job — and then subsequently lost it because of her drinking — Irina realized she had a problem. She went to rehab, where she was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder.
Irina: It was very hard. It was very hard and shocking, I think, when I went to rehab at 29 and discovered that mental health was like a thing that I was struggling with and had no idea. And, you know, it's - it's been even tough since to kind of like include my parents into that conversation.
Nora: What's tough about it now?
Irina: Well, honestly, the language barrier can be a little bit tough. I think for a lot of Latinos, you dealing with mental health issues, it's severely underreported in our culture. You know, a lot of Latinos don't talk to their doctors when they're feeling sad or blue or whatever. And I think that that's really hard now. It's gotten a little easier to be, you know, kind of force myself to be a little bit more open with my parents. And I think there's just like a general attitude when it comes to immigrants, which my parents are immigrants. And so there's this kind of attitude of like toughening up, which I think is something that I admire in my parents, but when I think about mental health struggles, it's actually something that I think is hurting us as a people. You know, you're stressed out because you saw something on the news or because your cousin is getting deported or, you know, you have family members who are in cages or, you know, just even hearing that news. and I think there's not a lot of support in the community so I think a lot of people and I think a lot more people will be turning to alcohol as a way to cope with all the stressors of today and all the immigrant hate that we hear on a day - on the daily basis.
Cristen: Jocellyn’s and Irina’s personal stories are also supported by data. A 2017 study on Americans’ alcohol use found that, since the early 2000s, alcohol addiction and binge drinking has increased faster among people of color compared to white people .. and the researchers attributed to the “increased stress and demoralization” they tend to experience.
Caroline: So Nora, what kind of advice does Irina have for coping with those kinds of intense stressors, sans alcohol?
Nora: Well, so she recommends seeking out treatment for sure, in whatever way you see fit and/or can afford. And rather than worrying about the social backlash or side-eyeing that may come along with coming out as sober, Irina really emphasizes building your community and relationships.
Irina: There's a really fantastic journalist by the name of Johann Hari, who has a couple books. And he has this quote that I hear a lot in the recovery community, which is that 'the opposite of addiction is connection'. And that's something that I think we don't think about when it comes to healing from alcohol or healing from, you know, drugs, that the importance of connecting with other people, the importance of finding support, whether that's in a recovery group or through family members or with a mental health professional. All of that is important.
Nora: As far as navigating spaces where there is alcohol or there is an expectation that people are going to be drinking. How do you approach those settings or is there a certain thing you say to someone when they're like, hey, do you want to drink, you know?
Irina: Really, it's just kind of being open and honest about my sobriety. You know, if someone says to me, hey, do you want a drink? I will say, well, actually, you know, I don't drink alcohol. And if they ask why, I am - I am much more upfront and just say, oh, well, I'm in recovery. By actually making it less of a big deal. I think I feel that I'm helping with some of that stigma. There's a lot of people in recovery. And we all look different. And it doesn't have to be like a huge deal that someone doesn't drink.
Cristen: OK, Caroline and Nora, I’ve got two cents to toss before we wrap.
Caroline: Let’s hear it
Cristen: For all those folks who ARE drinking — including you and me Caroline - lets stop fckin’ asking people who aren’t drinking just like “what’s up with that?” And I say this also to myself. Let’s just take for an answer. In the immortal words of Salt N Pepa: It’s none of your biznas!! It’s none of your business.
[Stinger]
Cristen: Thank you to ALL Y'ALL who wrote to us and left voicemails for this episode!! Even if yours didn't make it in, please know that we heard you and so, so appreciate your input.
Caroline: And keep the stories coming. You can email us hello@unladylike.co, hit us up on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and find the thread for this episode.
Cristen: If you are struggling with alcohol addiction or your relationship with alcohol, head over to our site unladylike.co to find this episode’s sources. We have linked to a ton of different resources. Plus, you’ll find the transcript for this week’s episode!
Caroline: While you’re there, you can buy some pretty sweet merch and you can sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly update on actually good news about women in the world.
Cristen: And if you’re feeling like you need more unadulterated C+C in your life, we’ve got great news: We’ve launched a Patreon to bring you ad-free EXTRA Unladylike bonus episodes! Head over to patreon.com/unladylikemedia to subscribe and support us.
Caroline: And if you’re still hungry for more, we have an entire PEP talk series over at Stitcher Premium.
Cristen: Nora Ritchie and Sam Lee are the producers of Unladylike. Abigail Keel is our senior producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing, sound design, and additional music is by Casey Holford. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.
Caroline: We are your hosts, Caroline Ervin
Cristen: and Cristen Conger. Next week…
[Clip]
Laci: I'm never gonna be mad at somebody scamming the rich because rich people have to scam to become rich. So it is only fair. It is the circle of life.
Cristen: It's just evening things out.
Laci: Exactly. It's like, look, I don't want to pay taxes, so we got to rob you. Like don't. This is tax. This is - I'm Uncle Sam, and I want you.
Cristen: That’s right - we’re talking about one of my favorite schadenfreudes … scams! We’re talking to Laci Mosley of Scam Goddess and Jane Marie of the Dream. You won’t want to miss this episode.
Caroline: Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. You can find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Cristen: And remember, got a problem?
Caroline: Get unladylike.
[Stinger]
Caroline: That’s right- if I don’t want a glass of wine at home with you tonight
ALL: It’s none of your biznas!
Caroline: And if I wanna be a freak and stay IN on the weekend
ALL: It’s none of your biznas!
