Transcript | Ep. 149: How to Simulate Sex
Cristen: Hey unladies, just a heads up that we’re going to be mentioning some instances of sexual abuse in this episode, so if you’d prefer to sit this one out, we totally understand! You do you, and we love you!
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Alicia Rodis: For the first two years I was on set, every time I would go on a different set in a different city or a different state or a different country and someone the boom operator would be like, Thank God, you're here. You know, and I'd have actors be like, I have to get myself to sleep at night with scenes that happened that we let go too far years ago. And, you know, that's that's the stuff we're really up against here.
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Caroline: Cristen, ya know two of the things I always find myself wondering when I watch a sex scene in a movie?
Cristen: Oh my - only two?!
Caroline: One: How naked are they really? Under that L-shaped blanket that hides the woman’s chest and not the man’s. Number 2: How awkward is it behind the scenes, like on set? Because you know what we see is usually really hot and there’s like sweeping music and all of that stuff, but on set is it just quiet? Do you have to hear like the camera guy chewing gum when you’re trying to stage this scene? These are important questions that I just wonder about.
Cristen: Basically, what is it like to shooting a sex scene when people are watching in real time?
Caroline: Yeah, that’s a good way to sum it up!
Cristen: Well, it turns out, until about five – yes, five – years ago, a lot of people weren’t thinking about those very important questions. Like, staging a sex scene was kind of the Wild West. The actors took their places, the director called action and whatever happened next was largely improvised. Which can be fine! I mean, actors are trained professionals
Caroline: Yeah, but if you think about Hollywood sets like workplaces (which they are) it sounds like an HR nightmare, frankly! You've got the boss — the director — instructing their employees — the actors — to make out with each other and just rip each other’s clothes off in front of their coworkers — aka the crew. What could possibly go wrong??
Cristen: Enter the intimacy coordinator. It’s one of the newest, buzziest roles in entertainment. And I’m gonna say it: It’s a very unladylike job
Alicia: An intimacy coordinator is a movement coach. A liaison between actors and production. And they are advocates for oftentimes for actors, but oftentimes for pretty much everyone in the room that is part of an intimate scene.
Caroline: That’s today’s guest, Alicia Rodis, the head intimacy coordinator at HBO Studios. Alicia is not only one of the best in the biz, she’s one of the folks who made intimacy coordinators a standardized profession!
Alicia: It shouldn't be so revolutionary to have a boundary and stick to it. And yet it is when it comes to nudity and simulated sex and a lot of things, really.
Cristen: So today, Alicia’s taking us behind the scenes of what all it takes to simulate sex, safely.
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Cristen: Before we get back to Alicia, it's important to understand why intimacy coordinators are so crucial. Because even if you're "just acting," getting physical on camera with zero guidelines can have very real and traumatic consequences.
Caroline: One of the most infamous examples of this is the 1972 Bernardo Bertolucci film Last Tango in Paris. It’s about two people in an abusive relationship, played by Marlon Brando, who was 48 at the time, and French actress Maria Schneider, who was just 19. The two were set to film a rape scene — and unbeknowst to Schneider, Marlon Brando and the director decided Brando’s character would grab a stick of butter and make it look to the audience like he was using it on Schneider as lubricant.
Cristen: Brando and the director didn't give Schneider a heads up about the unscripted move with the butter because they wanted an "authentic" reaction from her character. Soo, rather than letting her act, the men made her feel actually unsafe… yknow, for art.
Caroline: And if you're like, well, but y’all, that was back in the 70s, things were different … let's talk about Game of Thrones. There were no intimacy protocols in place. Like, all that sex. Incest. All the RAPE?? Yeah, like just go for it!
Cristen: Yeah, just go for it! Meanwhile, Emilia Clarke — aka Daenerys, THE Mother of Dragons — told an interviewer she was so desperate to be seen as professional, “that I’d be like, ‘Yeah, sure,’ for anything they threw at me. I’ll just cry about it in the bathroom later, whatever, you won’t know.”
Caroline: And the list goes on. The stars of Blue is the Warmest Colour — Léa Seydoux and Adèle Exarchopoulos — said they felt humiliated while shooting an extra-long simulated sex scene in that movie. Claire Foy, who plays Queen Elizabeth in the Crown, recently told The Guardian about how much she hates shooting these scenes. Rosie Perez has called her nude scene in Do the Right Thing one of the most humiliating experiences of her career.
Cristen: And this isn’t just an issue on set, either. Auditioning for roles that involve nudity or sex can make actors feel pressured to do things they're uncomfortable with. Which brings us to our intimacy coordinator, Alicia Rodis
Alicia: I think that there can be a magical sort of thinking around intimate scenes where it's like we can talk about crafting high-speed car chases and crafting really specific shots, except when it came to intimate scenes and it was like, Well, if you're going to kiss someone, you just kiss them and it's like, Well, what if we're not interested in how they kiss? We're interested in how their character kisses. And we're not interested in how that person has sex. We're interested in how their character has sex and what the story is there.
Caroline: Now, how long have intimacy coordinators existed?
Alicia: That's a great question, and as far as a specialist being brought on to work on an intimate scene, you know, this has been happening here and there for quite some time, but really the standardized practice and the surge that we had of intimacy directors and coordinators being in the world and really putting putting a mark down on the map has really started just around 2016.
Caroline: Alicia had a LOT of experience with directors taking a lackadaisical approach to intimacy on set. She grew up acting in school and in community theater, and pretty much as soon as puberty hit, Alicia found herself getting typecast.
Alicia: It's kind of been a running joke with my family. Since I was around 14 years old, I played every slutty best friend there was. So like from the community theater production of Oklahoma to the, you know, the, you know, random professional gigs that I got into. It's like if there was a prostitute, I usually was getting cast. So I was often playing these roles that had either intimate situations that were happening with them or just had to really exude sexuality in different ways.
Cristen: And during those early years acting, and through to her conservatory training, Alicia had a bunch of positive, empowering experiences. But.. she also had some less-than-ideal ones, from outright bullying to the folks in charge kinda … pussyfooting around what they actually wanted.
Alicia: I would go on to do a show where I was being topless, you know, on like a Boardwalk Empire episode doing background. And I'd be like, So is anyone going to tell me when I'm taking my top off because everyone's talking around it, but no one is telling me when we're actually going to do this. So there was just so much that happened, that it was just there was situations where just people didn't have the communication skills necessary.
Caroline: Eventually, Alicia transitioned from acting roles to working as a stunt person and a fight director — so, the person responsible for staging things like sword fighting and other physical violence. But she frequently found herself also being asked to weigh in on intimate scenes — to fill those gaps in communication on set. Like in 2013, when she was working as a fight director for a stage production of Othello.
Alicia: The director said, “You know, I really love that you're a woman,” and I got that all the time as a fight director. “Oh, you're a woman. Great. We've got a sexual assault scene. We're not really, you know, do you have any idea how to go about this,” and I was like, God, we have all of these specifics that we have for going into a violent scene. But any scene of intimacy, whether there was violence or not, we had really no specifics for. So, you know, I ended up working on this, this show and one of the actors came to me and said, “I'm really excited about this. I want to tell you, I have a history of of domestic violence in my in my past, but I've done my work like, I'm OK. I'm just really excited to work on this.” And I was like, Oh my God. So how are we going to go through and do this show and help mitigate as much harm as we can for this person?
Cristen: On another job, a group of NYU film students Alicia was working with asked her about how to handle an upcoming scene depicting sex.
Alicia: And I was like, Well, let's look at the SAG-AFTRA protocols, and I'm like, OK, there are no SAG-AFTRA protocols, it looks like. In fact, I don't see any protocols anywhere for a sex scene. So let's treat this how we just treated the last stunt we did.
Caroline: Yep, SAG-AFTRA, the actor’s union, which ostensibly exists to protect actors … had no protections in place. Fight scenes, yeah totally. Simulated sex and sexual assault? Nope!
Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break.
Caroline: When we get back, Alicia walks us through the 5 C’s of intimacy direction.
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Cristen: We’re back with Alicia Rodis.
Caroline: In Alicia's days as an actor and stunt performer, there was always someone on set who'd break down exactly what she could expect in the scene.
Alicia: I would get hired for something, and I had someone being like, “This is a 10-foot high fall that we're going to be doing.” It's like, “OK, great,” I get cast. And then it was like, “Hey, we were just, you know, on location, and it's probably going to actually be more like a 12-foot high fall. How do you feel about that?” OK. “This is what we're doing to keep you safe.” You know, there was someone whose expertise and specialty was in creating that scene of violence. But then I would come in to do an intimate scene and there was nobody. And hopefully, you had a director or an AD or someone who knew how to have the conversation, but it was not the experience that I had and not the experience that most actors that I was working with had had.
Cristen: Alicia was increasingly convinced that intimate scenes deserved a more formalized approach. So in 2015, she reached out to a fellow fight director and movement coach, Tonia Sina. Now, back in 2006, Tonia published her master’s thesis arguing for dedicated professionals to choreograph intimate scenes- –which was groundbreaking because that’s the first time we know of that anyone called for it. Together with a third movement coach, Siobhan Richardson, Alicia and Tonia started ironing out best practices for directing sex and intimacy on stage.
Caroline: The three founded Intimacy Directors International, now called Intimacy Directors and Coordinators, or IDC. IDC pioneered guidelines for bringing intimacy direction to TV and film sets, and they train up-and-coming coordinators in implementing the five C's.
Alicia: The pillars are context, consent, communication, choreography and closure. And those are, you know, the order that you go in to address an intimate scene. But they're also just on their own sort of bullet points in things we want to consider during intimate scenes.
Cristen: Coordinators are skilled not only around consent, but also stuff like conflict resolution and bystander intervention. They have to understand how to use modesty garments that cover breasts and genitals and barriers that prevent any unnecessary skin contact between actors.
Caroline: The choreography aspect of the work can be super granular — it’s not just like “OK, the characters are supposed to kiss, so actors, say the line and then kiss!” It’s more like, “OK, so one character is supposed to be nervous about kissing the other, so first the actor should tentatively put their hand on the other actor’s face, then take a beat before slowly coming together on a count of 3.”
Cristen: And their skill sets come into play for non-explicit interactions as well.
Alicia: Mam Smith, who is working on Westworld, talked about how they called her in for. It was a hand being placed on a young boy's head, and she was like, why are you calling me in for this? And she was reading the script and she's like, oh, I see the adult is playing a pedophile, and we're not seeing any sexual moment of course, happening between that actor and the minor. But it is simply an interaction, a physical interaction that the actors, the director, the producers all want more support for and someone to make sure everyone understands the context of what they're in and how we are doing this.
Caroline: The challenge initially, though, was getting buy-in from TV and film executives.
Alicia: Any time we reached out there was it was sort of an echo chamber. We weren't hearing anything back. Or actually, if we were hearing something back, it was, “Oh, sounds like a great idea. That sounds too expensive. We're not interested.”
Cristen: But then, #MeToo happened.
Alicia: And that was sort of when the phone started to ring. MeToo lit the fire under everyone's ass. To say, oh, we knew that there was maybe a bit of a problem, but that's just the way it goes. But yeah, I mean, Me Too happened and that- Everyone said, Oh, maybe there is something going on, and, you know, I think some of it was fear. Some of it was certainly fear that caused people to get on the phone and call me. But, you know, thank God they did.
Cristen: One of the very first calls Alicia got was from a producer on The Deuce, an HBO show about the early porn industry in the 70s.
Caroline: Just as they were starting to shoot the second season, two of the leads — Maggie Gyllenhaal and Emily Meade — asked the showrunners to bring someone on set to make sure that all the sex scenes they were going to be shooting would be done safely. A producer did a little Googling and then called Alicia.
Alicia: and bless him and I've talked about this before, and I called him on it before where it sounded like he was calling a prostitute. He didn't really know how to how to say he was just like, “I'm looking at a website and I see you have a service and we are interested.” I have. I have saved this voicemail because it still cracks me up. And he ended it with, “I swear I am an HBO producer.”
Cristen: The next day, Alicia was on set.
Caroline: Could you walk us through a particular scene from The Deuce that you coordinated to kind of give us a sense of the protocols that you have in place and how that plays out?
Alicia: when I worked with Emily Meade a whole lot, you know, Emily was playing a porn star and had many simulated sex and nude scenes with day players who would be brought in. There was a scene where Emily's character, Laurie, was performing oral sex on a person with a penis during a, you know, it was the the play within a play, it was the pornography that we were. We were shooting them shooting pornography, but it's all fake porn. So it was like, OK, so how are we going to achieve this? What are you looking for from this? Do you need her face? Is this something that we can fake without a prosthetic or do we need a prosthetic? Do we need her mouth on the prosthetic? Are we going to be far enough back that we can fake it? Or does she actually have to have her mouth on the prosthetic? We went through really the specifics, and I sort of I often will push to get as many answers as I can. And then, once I found out about that, it was like, OK, so my next step is that I'm going to call the actor, you know. I let her know, Yes, we're using a prosthetic. Yes, they are asking for your mouth to be on it. However, a lot of the shots are going to be like from behind the the person who is wearing the prosthetic behind their back, etc. And so we talk through all the specifics and clarify rider language. Make sure because there's a nudity or simulated sex rider that SAG-AFTRA makes every actor have, which is fantastic. And then I start going through the departments. “Hey makeup department. We need a prosthetic that is going to also be in a person's mouth. Let's talk about how we're making this hygienic. Let's talk about how we can even put some flavor so that it's not. So that's a little bit more pleasant for the person.” You know, I'll make sure I bring my stunt kit that has some knee pads. And then when that person is cast who is laying, the person who's wearing the prosthetic, who's the other pornographic actor that I have a conversation with him. He has all of the information about how we were shooting the scene, what it was going to be like. You know, just keeping it professional. And then, you know, once he had all that, riders gone out, it's gone through everyone's reps and everything. All the departments are set up, wardrobe knows, everyone knows. Then we get there that day. We have a safety meeting, of just saying like, this is how we're closing the set. This is, you know, these monitors are cut off. This is what's happening here. At any point, if anyone needs to stop or a break or or is like, I don't want to do this anymore, you let us know, you know, and we will stop. And then with Emily and the actor that she was interacting with, it was like, OK, let's talk about where it's OK to have hands. What's OK? What's not OK so that we know what our playing space is.
Cristen: In 2018, the New York Times reported on Alicia’s work on The Deuce in an article headlined: “How Do You Play a Porn Star in the MeToo Era? With Help from an ‘Intimacy Director.’ Within a week, Alicia says she’d received HUNDREDS of emails from producers wanting help for their projects, too. And pretty soon, HBO not only brought on Alicia full time, but also mandated intimacy coordinators for all of their productions.
Caroline: Other networks quickly followed HBO’s lead. Netflix, Hulu, Starz and Amazon all hired their own. In 2020 alone, 23 Emmy-nominated shows had intimacy coordinators listed in the credits.
Cristen: Also in 2020? SAG-AFTRA, the actor’s union, released its own protocols for intimacy on-screen AND the audition room with Alicia’s help.
Caroline: We’re going to take another break. When we come back, what it’s like on set when not everybody’s thrilled the intimacy coordinator is there.
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Cristen: We’re back with Alicia Rodis.
Caroline: Do you ever get pushback from anyone on set?
Alicia: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There are exceedingly high-feeling stakes on these productions because there's a lot of money and a lot of urgency and a lot of ego. We can't pretend that's not a thing. Resistance used to be one, it was it was fear of losing ownership, of the artistry of the scene, which I get, but in that case, it's like, “You just got to remember that we're collaborators, but if you have all the information and know exactly how this is going to go, great, then allow me to be another person in the room that helps mitigate some of the power that is going on here,” because that's the thing, right, like these directors and producers, they have a huge amount of power and acknowledging that is very uncomfortable. And acknowledging that this is a practice that is useful and even necessary is also uncomfortable because it might force a director, producer or even an actor to recognize that there may have been some harm caused in the past that they were a part of. And that's very uncomfortable and can be very painful. And so, you know, when I get resistance, I try to first assure that I'm not there to get in the way, I’m there to help enhance the process and help the directors and producers and actors achieve their vision. I'm a craftsperson in that way. And an artist in my own right. But. Also, that, like it's OK to change, it's OK to evolve. And you know, I can look at things that I did even a year ago on set that I'm like, Oh, that was not probably my best practice or, I'm glad I have continued to evolve in my practice since then.
Cristen: In the cases that you do get pushback or resistance, is it likelier to come from people behind the camera or in front of the camera?
Alicia: Hmm. More so than not, it's from behind the camera, but sometimes it's from, you know, I've been in interesting situations where it's the person behind the camera who is like, “Thank God, you're here. I have no idea how to say this. I have no idea how to talk about this.” And then the actors are like, “We don't want an intimacy coordinator. We're not interested. You just tell us what to do.” And the director doesn't want to say, “I have no idea how to say this.” And so I have been there when I'm just like, “Hey, y'all are good? Need a breath mint? OK, cool.” And then I'll sit there with the director and he's like, “I'm not getting this, how do I ask them for this?” And like, “You might want to consider this.” And so, you know, usually there's some way to go to work in a situation, you know, even with some resistance. And sometimes it's also just finding my advocate. If I'm getting resistance on all sides, then that's when I might go to a producer or go to someone else and be like, “So I'm not really getting the things that I need to do my job. I'm not getting in the conversations. I'm unable to do the minimum that is what I need to do to ensure the protocols are being followed. How can I make this happen? What can I do?” And I'm in a charmed position because I also work for the studio now, so I do have access to production coordinators and other folks that can come in and say, you need to have these conversations.
Caroline: Well, as an intimacy coordinator, beyond choreographing scenes, making sure people are comfortable with what they are doing in the scene, how do you approach conversations with actors around putting up boundaries between what's happening on set that day and their own personal and emotional lives?
Alicia: Yeah, it's not just with actors, really. I mean, I can't tell you how much support I've ended up providing for crew members just in, you know, in in conversations on set. You know, I'm sure you all are aware in the, you know, the insane pressure and long hours and difficulty that we can have on sets even when safety is being considered. I used to have actors come to me and be like, you know, “I'm on stage every night and with this person and every night we're kissing each other and every night we're hugging each other and every night we're holding each other and simulating all of this this intimacy together, and I'm starting to have feelings for them and I wonder why,” and it's like, well, I think I know why, because you put your body in a certain position, especially with someone else. There there is connection that occurs, and I don't think anyone's denying that.
Caroline: That’s where the last pillar of intimacy coordination comes in – closure. Alicia makes sure that at the end of shooting a scene, actors take the time to put the character and their traumas or emotions away.
Alicia: And it's anything from a whole de-roleing process that you might use after a scene or breath or some kinesthetic movement or, you know, something that allows you to just close off and have that separation. To be honest, a lot of it can feel that way just in removing hair and makeup at the end of the day or at the end of doing that scene. At the very least, I'm like, Hey, we're done with that scene. We're moving on. Please go and, you know, say goodbye to your fellow actor who is, you know, done for the day. And usually it's after they've had the scene. It's like, Oh, thank you so much, and it's a hug or it's a handshake or something that says thank you for your work. We are done now. We are separating this. We're moving on. And you know, there are shows like Underground Railroad had mental health advisors on set who were just as important to the state as anyone else who was there. So all of that I'm a big fan of and will definitely recommend, especially if we're into some, some more difficult traumatic work that we're doing or traumatic stories.
Cristen: Well, Alicia, what do you hope for the future of intimacy direction?
Alicia: I would love to see the recognition of intimacy directors and coordinators as a collaborative creative department head for each production that has intimacy. And I would like to see this group of professionals diversify, so and that means, you know look at who you're mentoring and find the ways to lift up other marginalized communities so that this really is a profession and a theory that can help keep us all safe. And a union contract, a union contract would be great.
Cristen: Oh, hell yeah.
Caroline: Well, is there anything we have not asked you about what you do, why you do it, what's needed, anything that you think listeners should know?
Alicia: Hmm. I guess that I would invite your listeners to consider where they might want to put up boundaries in their lives or to consider what it is, that is something that maybe they've accepted for a long time that. You know, maybe they don't have to. And I would also offer or suggest that everyone look to what their emotional fitness is looking like and and take time for themselves on that.
Caroline: To learn more about Alicia Rodis and intimacy coordinating, you can head to her organization’s website idcprofessionals dot com
Cristen: Y’all can find us at instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co. And you can support Caroline & me directly by joining our Patreon; over there, you’ll get instant access to more than 70 existing bonus episodes, and a new bonus every week, including our scientific detour into the new research on the COVID-19 vaccine and menstruation. Tres unladylike!. You can find it all over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.
Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Jared O’Connell. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media. Very special, loving shout-out to Andi Kristins who was the engineer on the show for years. She is moving on to a new position, and we want to say Andi - you are the human embodiment of joy and delight. We loved working with you and we will greatly miss you!
Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.
Cristen: Next week…
Casey McQuiston: Sex in romance novels, it's such an incredible tool for a writer to be able to like creates an emotional scene for two people that you otherwise just cannot hit that note. And I think that is what I love about romance and what makes it so hard for me to like read books that don't that aren't romance because of where is the fucking? I'm like, there's things like emotional things in this plot that can only be resolved by these two characters having sex.
Caroline: We are talking with the wildly popular romance author Casey McQuiston. Casey tells us why they write romance novels and the power of a crush. Plus, we dive into the history of the romance novel. And it? Is spicy.
Cristen: The heaving bosoms! Y’all do not want to miss this episode! So make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen.
Caroline: And remember, got a problem?
Cristen: Get Unladylike. And possibly an intimacy coordinator!
