Transcript | Ep. 148: Ask Unladylike: Mean Office Ladies
[CLIP: (The Office)]
Kevin: Isn’t 7pm a little late for a lunch party?
Angela: It’s supposed to say Launch Party! What is wrong with you?!
Phyllis (aside): Angela is worse than usual lately. So I Googled “How to deal with difficult people.” So we’re gonna try out some new things today.
Phyllis: So how do you feel about the fact that the banner says “lunch”?
Angela: I feel angry. Angry at you for doing something stupid. Angry at me for believing you could do something not stupid.
Phyllis: I’m so sorry to hear that, that must be awful.
Angela: It is awful. You’ve made this day AWFUL.
[theme music]
Caroline: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike! I’m Caroline
Cristen: I’m Cristen, and we are bringing y’all another installment of Ask Unladylike, where we dig into our mailbag for advice requests to dole out the answers that Google could never. Today, we’re focusing on one unlady’s big conundrum of what to do when another woman at work tries to make your life miserable.
Caroline: Cristen, you could’ve just talked to me directly.
Cristen: Well, could I though? Could I?
Caroline: OK, then, we’ve got a rapid-fire segment — we’ll be handing out advice-y hot takes on everything from high school feminism to orgasms to dating. And on that front, we’re even gonna share some single-life advice from some of y’all out there from our Instagram community!
Cristen: But first: Terrible women at work, present company excluded, and I’m counting myself among that, Caroline. So put on a shoulder-padded blazer and sensible pump, ‘cuz Caroline and I are here to fix all of your professional woes!
[stinger]
Cristen: Caroline, this letter subject line really jumped off the screen to me.
Caroline: Oh yeah?
Cristen: So we received a letter from a listener named Jessica, subject line: How to Approach Girls Who Hate Girls.
Caroline: Oh, that's ah, that’s quite a topic. Quite a topic. What what did what did Jessica have to say?
Cristen: Well. Let me tell you. Jessica writes, “I've been having an issue lately with a coworker of mine that I feel I don't have the tools to resolve. We are the only two women who work at our small company and we share an office. She's an accountant. I'm a web designer and head of marketing. Being outnumbered by an overwhelming level of toxic hypermasculinity bullshit for lack of a better descriptor is difficult. But it is way worse when your only female colleague seems to absolutely detest you. From day one, it feels like she's been trying to keep me in my place every time I have to work with her on anything or just try to have a casual conversation, I am met with short, cold responses. Most of the time she demands that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing without permission, which almost every time I'm following the orders of our boss. Most recently I discovered I've been getting paid less than what I was told would be my hourly wage. And who wouldn't be mad about that? When I approached her (remember, she's the accountant) I tried my best to remain professional and kind during this conversation, but she wouldn't even give me the time of day. She shirked me off, didn't even make eye contact and tried to accuse me of lying about my wage, three exclamation points. Now, if you're thinking ‘maybe she's just a grumpy lady and shouldn't take it personally,’ then you should know her attitude is all caps DRASTICALLY different around the men in our company. She jokes around with them, never questions their decisions and complies with everything they say and do. I guess my question is, how do I approach a conversation about this to help empower the both of us? Is that possible or is it a waste of time? Yours truly, frustrated working woman.” Jessica, bonus points for even giving yourself, like, an advice nickname. I love it.
Caroline: I know! Well, I mean, Cristen, what do you think? Like, can she have a conversation that is mutually empowering? Is it worth the time?
Cristen: Short answer?
Caroline: yeah.
Cristen: No, no. Like … or to put it another way, Jessica asks, “is it a waste of time?” Yes, Jessica, yes, it is a waste of time and could potentially make the situation, I think even worse, really.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, I know. So my knee jerk response to this, Cristen, was, oh, well go to H.R. Oh, but you work in a small toxic company. OK, well go to the boss. Oh, but you work in a small toxic company. OK, girl get a different office. Oh, but you work in a small toxic company. So, I thought about what I would do, and I don't think it is worth the confrontation, like, this woman is not your BFF, this is not your sister. Like, this is not someone who, like, you need to continue to foster a healthy relationship and communication with. Like, not only that, but like this woman is not going to change. This woman has a lot. May I call her Karen? Karen has a lot of internalized misogyny and femmephobia going on. And I really don't think that she would be receptive to a concerted feminist effort to have a mutual, like, empowering reset of your relationship.
Cristen: Also, because: when you approached her to correct a mistake that she, the accountant, made in how much your paycheck was and she treated you like that for calling out a basic error, you are definitely not going to get anywhere with something higher minded, like “how can we mutually empower each other?” Jessica, you just need to figure out how to get paid correctly so that you can make your money and put in as much or as little time as you need to in this company so that you can move the fuck down the road.
Caroline: Yeah, I think she's just on a power trip because I imagine — I don't know how old this woman is or what her background is — but I imagine that working in this hyper toxic, masculine bullshit type of environment has really put her through the wringer.
Cristen: Mm hmm.
Caroline: And, you know, she's probably had to find her own survival skills, her own coping mechanisms to like be one of the guys, to be the cool girl to, like, get along so well with the bros, but then put down the potential threat or the potential competition. I do think it's worth noting that there is an actual sociological term for this and it is “competitive threat,” which is a very common sense term that makes total sense to me. And it's a term that describes when a woman fears that a female newcomer will outshine her. And I think that's partially what's going on here.
Cristen: Well, another term that came to my mind, Caroline, is the whole queen bee syndrome.
Caroline: Yes.
Cristen: Which has been kind of mangled in recent years to just refer to essentially mean girl behavior. But originally in the mid 70s, queen bees, the idea of the queen bee at work was first coined to describe exactly this kind of internalized misogyny and competitive threat. It's usually describing a woman who has, quote unquote, made it in a man's world. She's sort of the original model of “having it all.” But that means that you're right, there's only only room for her. And any other women are either a threat or these queen bees need to do everything in their power to ensure that these new little honeybees floating around the office have to go through the exact same wringer that they did.
Caroline: Yes.
Cristen: I feel like there's often a lot of that kind of I don't know, how would you even describe it? Of like, it's the opposite of paying it forward. Like paying it backwards.
Caroline: Yeah. I mean, it's, Cristen, it's being sexist
Cristen: Yes
Caroline: and it's it's being fucking mean, and it's being very regressive and saying that, you know, I went through this so like, screw you. You will, too. And I'm willing to bet that Karen feels very shaky, like Carol Tavers, I believe is her name, the psychologist who did coin the term queen bee. She told The Atlantic that how we behave at work depends on, quote, “how safe we feel at work. Does our work give us a chance to thrive or are we feeling thwarted at every step?” And so, like, Jessica, it sounds like you're trying to survive and, like, just get your fucking work done and ol’ Karen here is clearly feeling unsafe, and that's causing her to lash out and try to hold you down.
Cristen: Yeah, and Jessica has already named it. What Jessica is experiencing is a toxic patriarchal workplace. But Caroline, I do want to leave Jesica with some concrete advice, so. What should we recommend for Jessica?
Caroline: So, Jessica, for one thing, I might try to just like reduce I'm sure you already are, but just like reduce the chances for unnecessary interaction. Don't even try to initiate casual conversations. Switch up your desk space if you can so that — I don't know how she's getting any idea of what you are or are not working on or whether it is or is not sanctioned by your boss, but like try to limit whatever she can see about what you're doing. Try to get things from your boss in writing, just like via email, just so that you have records and you know, like. You clearly listen to podcasts, so maybe wear some earbuds at work, so she's not so able to just at any moment explode on you. But I would say most importantly is to just take care of yourself, find that emotional support outside of your job where you can vent and like get some relief, but but not to the point where you are spiraling out and like ruminating. Make sure that the friends that you're leaning on are also friends that’ll be like, all right, all right, enough. Like screw Karen. But like, you can't make your whole life about her. And yeah, I, I hate to say it, but also what might help. And I feel like you're pretty much there is kind of reframing how you think about this woman, and part of that is viewing her with, honestly, some pity and compassion. This is not a woman who has a really strong sense of self or a strong sense of I, I don't know, justice and kindness. And she is taking out her shaky sense of self-worth on you. And so I know you said, like, “don't just tell me not to take it personally,” but I'm kind of telling you, Jessica, like she's on a power trip. She's trying to get empowered in any way she can, and that involves shitting on other women and, it's not about you.
Cristen: Yeah, yeah, because truly, whatever you do, whether it is to build a wall of succulents on your desk so she cannot even see you sitting there or bringing her, you know, donuts every day and trying, you know, leaving a copy of Lean In on her desk - no. Whatever you do, she's going to hate it, you know.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: And I think the best advice we can honestly give you is save yourself the time and emotional energy and don't try to have a, you know, a feminist consciousness-raising sesh with her and just accept that like, no, she's she is drinking the toxic masculinity Kool-Aid, and it is not your job to get her to stop.
Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.
Cristen: When we come back, it’s time for some RAPID FIRE advice and a question that some Unladies helped us answer.
Caroline: Stick around, y’all!
[stinger]
Cristen: We’re back, and Caroline, are you ready for some rapid fire advice?
Caroline: Oh my god, I am, I’m sweating, but I am!
Cristen: Pew pew pew! So here’s how this works: We’ll read a question, and then we each get ONE CRACK at it
Caroline: Oh god
Cristen: that’s it, no takesies backsies, do not pass go, no $200 for you.
Caroline: I mean, I need the 200 bucks
Cristen: I’m sorry, it’s not gonna happen
Caroline: Let’s do it
Cristen: Don’t pass go!
Caroline: OK!
[BELL SFX]
Cristen: OK, Caroline, first up, we've got an email from Sylvia. Sylvia wrote, “Hey, y'all, I just listened to the latest episode on the female orgasm. And let me tell you, it left me with some thoughts. I don't know if my partner understands that I need to come, too. We've been together for 12 years, and I haven't had an orgasm since the very beginning of the relationship. It's very frustrating because he comes every time. This is stressing me out. What on earth should I do?”
Caroline: Oh God. OK. Obviously, a conversation needs to happen. I am concerned about why a conversation has not happened that has addressed this issue. And granted Cristen. I, you know, obviously want to say like, I feel like we don't have all of the details. But I want to say that I really hope this is not an issue of Sylvia's partner being a completely selfish, like shut-down schmuck. I hope this is an issue of like, we're just not on the same page, and we need to talk about it. But it's also like majorly fucked up, Sylvia, that you have not had an orgasm in like all of that time. So I hope that you know that there are vibrators out there. I hope you can talk to your partner about this and let him know that what you want matters too, because if he doesn't actually care that that's a big red flag.
Cristen: What would you? I know I'm breaking the rules here for a second, but talk to him, yes, but Caroline, give me a tweet length suggestion of what should Sylvia say to him?
Caroline: What if? Rather than kicking off with like a big conversation about the whole issue of not feeling heard or taken care of or seen or, you know, gotten off, what if the tweet length conversation is just like? Let's have sex. You get me off first.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: And there's so many Twitter characters left.
Cristen: Perfect.
Caroline: All right, you go. I feel like it was frantic. I was very upset about this conundrum she's having. What is your take?
Cristen: I have. I have two suggestions. One, get a vibrator. Two, get a sex pillow. You can find these on stars like Dame or Unbound. And this is going to be fun for the both of you to find positions that are going to be easier for that person to penetrate and hit the spots that feel really good. Make it into an adventure. Make it into an exploration, a game, if you will. Where the prize is, you get an orgasm. But really, though vibrators. But try a sex pillow. And I'm saying this is someone who, yeah, if you can't tell, I got a fuckin sex pillow! It’s great!
Caroline: Is it a wedge?
Cristen: It’s a wedge.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: It’s a wedge.
Caroline: Yeah, they’re everywhere, man.
Cristen: And, when you’re not humpin’, you can use it to just prop up a book while you’re reading, you know? But maybe wash the cover. The cover of the pillow, not the book. Who knows, though?
Caroline: All right. Moving on from that doozy. Now we have a question from Claire, subject line. High school apology, question mark. Claire writes, “I need advice and I don't know who to turn to. When I was in high school, I was a pretty shitty feminist. I was not intersectional and when I was in year 11 (that's 15 years old), I had a lot of arguments with a girl in my year. I see now that I was majorly in the wrong, but we were never friends and we haven't spoken since high school about three to four years ago. Should I Facebook message her and acknowledge that I was wrong, or should I just let it lie?”
Cristen: Claire. Don't message this person on Facebook. She's not your friend, and I think that whatever time you're going to invest in this conundrum is the question is why is it getting to you so much? And what what lingering guilt are you holding on to? And how can you use this as a learning opportunity to be the kind of feminist that you do want to be in the world moving forward? Because it sounds, Claire, like it's more of like a you thing than it is a her thing, and there's no sense like kicking up dirt for this other person who very well might have totally forgotten about the whole thing.
Caroline: Yeah, my question is the same. Claire, is this about you or is this really about her? If in all of this, you know, high school shitty feminist rigamarole, you were genuinely terrible or did something to deeply harm this person., I can see the benefit of making a genuine apology. And when I say genuine apology, there are layers to that. It's not just reaching out over Facebook and saying, Hey, sorry for that time I was a real asshole. It means taking accountability so the other person knows that you know that you fucked up. It means then apologizing genuinely. Saying that you intend to never do that kind of thing again and not making it a situation where they then feel that they have to do something, like that they have to be pressured into forgiving you or pressured into now being your friend or what have you like. There can't be then any expectation on the person that you're apologizing to. But all that said, I agree with Cristen, this sounds like you are just at a place where you have matured and you realize now that you know you weren't the best friend, classmate, person, feminist in high school. And that's OK because a lot of us have our own missteps from when we were younger too. So I would work on forgiving yourself, taking responsibility and just yeah being accountable, making sure that you don't repeat those mistakes going forward.
Cristen: All right, next we have actually a few questions from a listener named Lauren. And Lauren isn't looking for advice per se, but she's more posing kind of philosophical questions to us about marriage and what better way to treat philosophical questions about this deeply held institution than with some hot takes. So, Caroline, Lauren asks. First, how can marriage be feminist? Can it be?
Caroline: All right, Cristen, I think you might have a better take on how marriage can be feminist as you are in a marriage, and I’ not.
Cristen: Bullshit, you know, you know these answers to I.
Caroline: OK. Well, I think that marriage can be egalitarian.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: I don’t know that marriage itself is like feminist any more than any other relationship structure. I think marriage can be egalitarian if there is communication, if both parties respect each other, if both parties understand the other's strengths and weaknesses and do not expect to be taken care of like a literal baby. I know that I am not the only one out there who has felt like she has dated man-children, and that is not a fucking feminist relationship. And if you're worried about like, “Oh, if I get married to a man, I am not a feminist,” to that I say, Well, why? Like, just because of the origins of marriage are, you know, not feminist doesn't mean that the institution of marriage today, as it exists, is not feminist. I think your relationship can be egalitarian, but that's something that you and your partner have to constantly work at, communicate about and negotiate. But what’s your take, Cristen? Can marriage be feminist?
Cristen: Yes, it can be. And how can it be? It is two feminists who choose to get married. Because honestly, like you said, Caroline, marriage is marriage is an institution. Obviously, its history is in culture is all wrapped up with patriarchy, capitalism. It's a whole hot mess of nonsense. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's a legal arrangement.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: And I think when two feminists enter into a legal agreement together and treat each other in a egalitarian, respectful kind of way, then there you have it.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: A feminist marriage.
Caroline: Now you said that there were multiple philosophical questions.
Cristen: OK, here we go. Yeah, yeah. Get ready for this one.
Caroline: OK.
Cristen: Lauren also wants to know in a feminist slash non-patriarchal society what percentage of women would actually bother getting married.
Caroline I think the number of women getting married to men WOULD be lower if our society was more egalitarian, more feminist and less patriarchal place. Because, you know, that would mean you wouldn't have a wage gap, you wouldn't need two incomes to access daycare and a nice apartment, you'd be able to visit your partner in the hospital without having to be married — basically it just means that the legal and financial scales wouldn't be SO tipped toward benefiting married folks, you know? But that doesn't mean at all that marriage would disappear. But what do you think? Would fewer women get married if the world were a less patriarchal place?
Cristen: Fewer straight women. Absolutely. For all of the economic reasons you ticked off. As a watcher of the Real Housewives franchise, you know, I think definitely there would be fewer kind of marriages of convenience for economic reasons, but I also think there’s a little bit embedded in this question, maybe a little bit of queer erasure? Because there’s like same-sex marriage. And LGBT people who either married or want to get married. So it's not like the institution would be eradicated.. But I think that fewer women would feel like marriage is their only option.
Caroline: Yeah, like compelled.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Ok, those were our rapid fire questions and now we’ve got some some rapid fire advice for Unladylike listener Elina. We posted her question to instagram, and we got SO MANY amazing responses from our unladies that rather than answer this ourselves, we're bringing some of YOUR advice. So. Elina wrote: “I’m 36 years old and I’ve always been single. I feel like everyone my age has tons of experience and I’m still in square one, and it makes me feel very insecure.” So Cristen, can you read some unladylike responses?
Cristen: Oh my gosh. I am bookmarking this thread to just read whenever I’m feeling down because it is filled with so much compassion and excellent advice. So umcam256 said ‘I never dated until I was 28, and felt the same way even after I started dating. You’re not alone! What I’ve learned is just be yourself. Those that are worth it won’t care what your experience is.The other thing to bear in mind is just because someone has more experience, it doesn’t make them better at dating. It may take awhile to find your person or you may never find someone and that’s okay too. I’m biased, but the people who’ve spent the most time being single seem to be better at all their relationships (not just romantic) because they’ve had the time to reflect on what they want and can bring to the relationship rather than bending to what someone else envisions.’
Caroline: I love that.
Cristen: So true.
Caroline: We also heard from alotcanhappen who wrote, ‘There are people out there who have never been single that have never taken the space to figure out who they are, and what they truly need. Use this time for self improvement and self exploration so that when the time comes you can bring the BEST and most confident version of you!!
Cristen: Smiley face emoji, raised hands emoji! Nikkinowknows share ‘I have spent almost my entire adult life being single and the one thing I absolutely love about it is that I have all the time for me. I can be as selfish as I want to be and it’s okay. I know it can be scary, weird, and a whole lot of other things when everyone else around you is either coupled up or always asking when you’ll be coupled up. Heck with them! You do you. Get to know all about yourself. Do all the things you want to do. Be the strong and powerful woman you are meant to be.’
Caroline: Yes, embrace your final form!
Cristen: And I would say that’s just general excellent advice.
Caroline: Oh, absolutely!
Cristen: Thank you all of you wonderful Unladies who shared your advice for Elina, and it’s time now for another break.
Caroline: When we come back, an update from Jessica, our first letter writer from the top of the show, who got stung by the queen bee at work
Cristen: Buzz buzz!
[stinger]
Cristen: We’re back. And we are back with an exciting update. Ok, so we advised listener Jessica at the top of the episode about her terrible female coworker. And our producer Nora reached out to Jessica, to let her know we were gonna be talking about her letter and see if she had any updates for us. And APPARENTLY, as soon as Jessica fired off that email, things were in motion because wow wow wow we have been told we have quite the juicy update. And I say that because we have not lain our eyes on that until this moment.
Caroline: Nope. I am stoked.
Cristen: Oh, I'm so excited. OK, so Jessica writes: “I got to a point with this female coworker where I accepted that she was just not going to like me.” Oh, OK, OK. “I was learning to accept that I don't have to be everyone's cup of tea. Once I had let go of that expectation, I felt free to speak up and not really care if she thought I was being, well, ladylike.” Jessica, see what you did there, I see what you did there. “Shortly after writing the letter and raising the issue around pay with my female coworker, I was told by my male boss that I was being aggressive and rude.” WHAT?
Caroline: Oh shit
Cristen: “I was then fired and told I was not working hard enough for what they were paying me for.”
Caroline: Oh, what?
Cristen: Oh, my God. OK, it continues. Woah, Jessica, I was not expecting that, all right. “Although it was difficult, I really did my best.” I know you did. “That experience pushed me to grow. I needed to do the thing that was so hard for me to do, which was defend myself. I think reflecting back now, I just wish I hadn't taken it all so personally because it was never about me. I don't regret speaking up and being loud about it. I might not have made anyone like me, but I feel better about myself knowing that I did my best and I spoke up when it mattered and maybe sometimes when it didn't. I also have some really incredible people in my life who inspire me to be more of a badass woman every day. They have taught me how to shift my feelings of insecurity to curiosity, which has helped me to feel less intimidated about being around people that make me feel unqualified and unworthy.”
Caroline: Jessica.
Cristen: Jessica!
Caroline: Jessica. Oh, my God.
Cristen: Oh, my God.
Caroline: That's great.
Cristen: Shifting her feelings of insecurity to curiosity.
Caroline: Yes ma’am
Cristen: Caroline, What is our unladylike motto?
Caroline: Oh, my God. Stay curious.
Cristen: Build empathy!
Caroline: Build empathy.
Cristen: Raise hell.
Caroline: Raise hell! And you did, Jessica, you did.
Cristen: OK. Fuck them for firing you.
Caroline: Yeah, Jesus.
Cristen: Fuck them for calling you aggressive and rude, wow, but you don't need us to tell you that because it sounds like you've already processed things and you, formerly “frustrated working woman,” have been doing a lot of work on yourself. And Jessica, I am so proud of you and honestly inspired by you.
Caroline: Yes. Yes. This you did not let this coworker, whom I have referred to as Karen the entire time, you did not let Karen drag you down.
Cristen: No.
Caroline: You it was a slog. It was a pain. It was toxic, but you made it through and like they fired you, but honestly, that's probably one of the best things that could have happened aside from you quitting.
Cristen: Learning and and accepting that not everybody is going to like you.
Caroline: Oh, my God.
Cristen: Is such an important life lesson. It's one that I came to in my, like, mid to late 20s, finally having a light bulb moment of like, oh, my. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, oh. Some people just aren't going to like me. Some people are not going to like me. Huh.
Caroline: And you’re not gonna like everybody either.
Cristen: Exactly! I also appreciate how Jessica is validating herself of recognizing and honoring the fact that, yes, you did your best and this was an opportunity to do something, I mean, the line “I needed to do the thing that was so hard for me to do, which was defend myself,” and that is hard to do in workplace settings. There have been so many meetings that I've gone into, like corner offices I feel like I've marched into Caroline feeling like, oh, I'm going to tell him just how much I'm worth and I'm going to get the — and the moment I step foot in there, I'm like, “hi, I don’t I don't need a raise.” Like what? So, I mean, easier said than done and I'm just really impressed by you, Jessica.
Caroline: Yeah, I think that this is a great example, because honestly, like you could view, you can view two potential worst case scenarios. Like on the one hand, a worst case scenario is staying in that awful job with those awful people for years and never leaving, whether you're standing up for yourself or not, you know, just.
Cristen: And maybe becoming friends with Karen because you, too, start drinking the toxic Kool-Aid.
Caroline: Right. Right. But the other worst case scenario is getting fired or dinged in some way because you spoke up and asked for more money. And Jessica got that worst case scenario. But ultimately, Cristen, like, I don't think that that is actually literally a worst case scenario. Like it happened. Losing a job sucks, but Jessica just seems like like that's not the worst part, the worst part was dealing with those people and getting bogged down by them and having that support network that you said you have. That's exactly what we said was so important, getting validation from them and getting validation from yourself. I, I just think that people are right to be afraid about like, oh, shit, what if I lose my job? Like, what if they retaliate in some way if I ask for more money like that, that's a valid fear. But in such a toxic environment like. Maybe it's time to find a new job anyway.
Cristen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was that was the advice that I wasn't going to say, because when we were reading her first letter, because it's like, oh, just find a new job. Oh, how easy is that? But but it sounds like ultimately the best case scenario was to get fired because it just it it's almost like when when a shitty shitty person dumps you.
Caroline: Yes.
Cristen: You know, it's like, well, you know what, thanks. Because I didn't have the wherewithal to end this myself. So.
Caroline: Oh my god. I know, that literally happened to me. It was the best thing that ever happened to me! Truly! I was like, oh, thank God. I still to this day am relieved that that person broke up with me. Like and Jessica, I'm sure to this day you are still so relieved that these people fired you.
Cristen: Oh, my God. Yeah.
Cristen: Huge thanks to all of you unladies who sent us your advice requests! If you have an advice question you want us to answer, drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co. You can also find us at instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. And you can support Caroline & me directly by joining our Patreon; over there, you’ll get instant access to more than 70 bonus episodes, and a new bonus episode every week, including our recent very indulgent review of a little show called And Just Like That, AKA that SATC reboot with the title that nobody can remember and you can find it all over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.
Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.
Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.
Cristen: Next week…
Alicia Rodis: For the first two years I was on set, every time I would go on a different set in a different city or a different state or a different country and someone the boom operator would be like, Thank God, you're here. You know, and I'd have actors be like, I have to get myself to sleep at night with scenes that happened that we let go too far years ago.
Cristen: We are talking with HBO intimacy coordinator Alicia Rodis about how she stages simulated sex in movies & television – and her on-set role as an advocate for workplace boundaries and consent.
Cristen: Y’all do not want to miss this episode! So make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen.
Caroline: And remember, got a problem?
Cristen: Get Unladylike.
