Transcript | Ep. 143: Ask Unladylike: Husband Problems

Cristen: One reason why I'm loathe to jump to the “just dump him already” is that. Caroline, if we dumped all the motherfuckers who considered picking up and dropping off a kid on their day off to be a burden there would be no marriage left. You know.

Caroline: I mean. I MEAN.

[theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. And we are back with another installment of Ask Unladylike, where we open up the Unladylike mailbag and try to A your most pressing Q’s!

Caroline: And this week, our topic is a bit of a sticky one: What is an unlady to do, when she’s married to a man … who just isn’t holding up his end of the marital bargain?!

Cristen: Kill him!

Caroline: OK - I am not sure we can advocate for that

Cristen: All right, fine. You’ll hear our slightly less fatal advice later. And first, an unlady whose husband surprised her with his views on abortion rights - after they reproduced.

[stinger]

Cristen: Caroline, the first letter we have… It's a doozeroo. This is from a listener named Jessica, subject line: Marital woes about abortion. Caroline, would you like to read?

Caroline: I'll read it, Cristen.

Cristen: Buckle up, y'all. Buckle up for this one. OK.

Caroline: All right, Jessica says, “Hello, ladies,” Hello!

Cristen: Hello! hi.

Caroline: “I am writing to dot dot dot maybe dot dot dot get a new perspective or gain some clarity on something that has recently rocked my marriage boat: abortion. I've always considered myself very open minded and able to let people have their own opinions, no matter how uninformed or culturally driven. But with the hellacious and backward bans on abortion that have stunned the news lately, I tried to open a dialogue between my husband and myself about it. To my dismay, he stands firmly with the ban, despite having women in his life and two daughters who are only 4 and 6 now but will be women someday. And no matter what, I will always put the girls first, their needs, wants and wishes first, their mental and physical health first. But I fear that in doing so, I could cross the line in his eyes about what is morally acceptable. It has truly changed my outlook on my life and marriage and the life of my children. I also haven't been able to bring myself to follow up the conversation, or fight, rather, with my husband. I'm frustrated, angry and feeling hopeless with the thought. What should I do? Thank you for your time.” Jessica, thank you for your email. Cristen.

Cristen: yes.

Caroline: Holy shit.

Cristen: Yeah. Yeah. My sentiments exactly. OK. First of all. Jessica, if I could give you a consensual hug, I would, because I, I hear the pain and concern and fear and anxiety in your letter, and I can only imagine what a shock to the system that conversation must have been with your husband.

Caroline: Yeah, I think, though, if I may.

Cristen: Yes.

Caroline: I think what the shock was to me is that this had not been a conversation earlier.

Cristen: Yeah.

Caroline: That was surprising to me, that after after I got over my initial knee jerk response of, just clearly dump this guy.

Cristen: Right, right.

Caroline: Which is not the most productive or helpful or nuanced advice, Jessica. So I will not leave it at that. I was surprised that this is not a conversation that had been had during your dating time with your now husband. And then it occurred to me that I think sometimes when issues don't directly affect us, that we might not want or need or feel the need to bring them up with our significant others until we feel like something is potentially going to affect us.

Cristen: Yeah, because in the heteronormative dating script at least, "do you want to have kids?" is the common like reproductive question that gets asked.

Caroline: Right.

Cristen: And I have a feeling for a lot of couples, the conversation stops there. It's like, what do we want to do? Clearly, you and your husband wanted to have kids. You now have two of them. So even though you have gotten to know this person to the point of marrying them and even going through pregnancies with this person, to then in retrospect learn that if, let's say, you had gotten pregnant and wanted to terminate that pregnancy, you might have had some trouble on your hands from this guy. You know, I think that that if I had a child with someone and then learned that that person was anti-choice, I don't know. It's like another layer of feeling just blindsided of like how, oh, how did I not know this?

Caroline: Right.

Cristen: And I do think it's easy to to say from the outside looking in like, “Well, Jessica, you should have you should have figured this out before you committed to this person and got married to them.” But if there is one thing that we as as an American culture have learned in the past year, plus, it's that a lot of folks don't like having uncomfortable conversations, and I don't know whether, Jessica, you and your husband are white, but I'm a white woman. And in my experience, a lot of white folks, they don't they don't want to talk about politics. They don't want to have to have those uncomfortable fights where you get into the ethical nitty gritty and potentially offend the other person. We have a long history of just sweeping things under the rug.

Caroline: Yeah, I have a big question.

Cristen: Ok.

Caroline: And it's for it's for Jessica, but Cristen, I, I want you to chime in. And that is Jessica. Why are you worried about, quote, crossing the line in his eyes about what is morally acceptable when to me it seems that he should be worried about crossing the line in your eyes? Not that you have to come to a right or wrong, black and white, yes or no answer one way or the other. I doubt that you will change your husband's mind, and he doesn't sound like he's going to change yours. But Cristen, it really jumped out to me when she said that that's what she was worried about and like having a follow up conversation about pushing him about potentially like pissing him off, basically, that she didn't want to cross a line in his eyes about what is morally acceptable. But like Jessica, clearly, like you are very pro-choice. And your husband is anti-abortion, anti-choice. So I'm I am curious about that idea of like not wanting to cross the line because it seems like it's already been crossed, and why is this just your line that you've crossed, not a line that he has crossed?

Cristen: Yeah, yeah. One question that I wrote down was, “Is he the moral arbiter of your relationship?” Because if that's the case, then what we're talking about is not so much a question of “what do I do about my anti-choice husband,” but “what do I do about this patriarchal, traditional gender role, entrenched relationship that I'm in?” Is there any way to make this an actual egalitarian partnership rather than feeling like you are kind of under his thumb in a way, like he gets to ultimately call the shots and.

Caroline: Right.

Cristen: Again, Jessica, like I, I don't want to project on your life, but what I glean from your letter, what I hear is something, Caroline, that you and I heard a lot when we first started Unladylike in 2018. The fire of MeToo was still burning bright. The you know, the quote unquote pussy hat rage was still fresh. And we heard from so many women, particularly white women, who found our podcast because they were on a brand new kind of journey incited by the Trump election and MeToo of a real kind of feminist awakening and really grappling with these kinds of issues for the first time. And it also reminds me of a lot of relationship turmoil that we have heard over the past year during Black Lives Matter protests of some couples breaking up because you realize, “Oh, shit, I'm married to a racist, I'm married to a blue lives matter person. How did this happen?” And how that happens is because we don't want to have these conversations ahead of time.

Caroline: Or we don't think that they're even important enough to discuss. They just don't cross our minds to discuss.

Cristen: Exactly, exactly. So as for what to do, my top line advice as a married woman who also does not relish having conversations that might lead to a fight. OK, I get that. I totally get that. But Jessica, you have to fight it out. You have two choices. You can either compartmentalize this and bury it down. And try to raise your daughters the best that you can. Or. You fight it out and you risk, yes, crossing the line in his eyes and finding out what happens, but before you even do that, because that's a scary leap to take, get clear on where you're coming from. Because I think that the the way you have this conversation is not to say “I need to talk to you about abortion because it is fucked up that you support abortion bans, pro-choice hashtag etc.” I don't think that's going to get you very far. I think you de-center the political hot button issue of abortion and you work your way to that because what's really at stake for your relationship is that underlying fear that this situation triggered.

Caroline: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. I think a big question while you are figuring out where you stand and what your what your line is, I think another thing to be asking yourself is “Why am I scared to have this conversation, and can I have this conversation?” You know, there are a lot of conversations that are scary because, yes, they might lead to a fight or, you know, you know you might disagree or whatever, but that ultimately, like, the conversation itself will be fine, but. If you can't because of how he will react or what he will say to you or how he will treat you, to me, that is a deal breaker in and of itself. Like aside from clashing views on abortion, if you don't feel that there is enough respect in the relationship to where these conversations can happen, no matter whether you see eye to eye, that's a huge deal breaker. And it, Cristen, it made me think of these so-called four horsemen of the divorce apocalypse. Are you familiar?

Cristen: No.

Caroline: So this is coming from the Gottman Institute and the Gottmans, a couple, like came up with these four, like definitive indicators of “this couple is going to get divorced.” Sometimes, only one or two of these are present in a relationship. But if all four are there, according to their years and years of research, like people are heading for divorce town, and that is criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. And criticism is something deeper and harsher than critique or complaint. You know, we all have complaints. Oh, my God, I hate how you load the dishwasher. Jesus Christ. That is just a complaint. Criticism is much more personal and picking. Uh contempt. That's the disrespect. That's mocking. That's cruelty. Defensiveness. You understand defensiveness. It's getting defensive. It's not leaving room for an actual conversation to happen. And then, of course, stonewalling, which is, you know, literally or figuratively turning your back, shutting down, evading, avoiding — usually a response to contempt. And so I want to set that there for you to think about. Because as you’re determining where you stand on abortion and where you’re coming from and how to have this conversation, if you don't think you can even have this conversation because one of these four horsemen or more than one is present, this might also be a bigger issue that requires counseling, which, you know, of course, I'm always a fan of therapy, so I don't want to indicate that divorce is like inevitable because all of these factors, according to the Gottman Institute, like they can be worked on. This is not like a definitive you will get divorced or whatever. But I just want to like I just want to put that out there.

Cristen: Yeah, I I don't want to go as far as to say, like, if you feel this way, then that's a deal breaker. I think that it is pointing you in the direction of where the work in your marriage really needs to focus for all of the reasons that you just pointed out, Caroline. And when it comes to the abortion issue, I would also highly recommend that all of us, all of us immediately disabuse ourselves of the notion that men with women in their lives will automatically treat women better and understand and embrace gender equality for all, because what do we hear any time some kind of a scandalized politician, you know, needs to do some public pearl clutching. He always frames himself as the father of a daughter, as the brother of a sister, as the son of a mother. Like we all have women in our lives. And yet. You know, nearly half of men and women in the US are opposed to abortion rights. So I would I would set that aside and again, peel back that that onion layer deeper and ask, well, what what is it about the relationship between your daughters and your husband that you feel like could potentially be endangered? What do you want from him to be role modeling to them? So that's what I mean when I say de-center the politics at first, because this is going to be a fight about abortion, yeah, but it's really not a fight about abortion. It's a fight about how your marriage is structured and the kind of husband and father that you want and need for yourself and your daughters. And you are well within your rights to ask him for that and make him uncomfortable, too. Because, Jessica, I will tell you, I am in therapy right now partly because of how uncomfortable I get at the prospect of making my loved ones uncomfortable by broaching these kinds of topics, which I guess is ironic because I host this podcast. But the fact of the matter is, when it comes down to brass tacks and it's just me and my husband and I I you want to keep the peace, but you also - things are driving you crazy. I have a hard time verbalizing that as well. So you're not alone. And the glass-half-full view on this is that, it can be the gateway to either you finding the path that works for you with or without this man or you and your husband really coming together to rebuild your marriage in a way that will not only honor each of you, but also your daughters. And I have a feeling that once you can start peeling back those layers and getting to the personal stakes in this issue, then. That's going to reframe the conversation specifically around abortion, because he he first needs to see you coming to him as a person and as your partner and someone who really wants to make this work but is really concerned, and your concerns are totally valid.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: And we’re gonna need it because when we come back, we answer a letter from a listener whose husband does not want to pick up his OWN child from child care.

Caroline: Stick around!

[stinger]

Caroline: Well, Cristen, if our letter from Jessica was a dozeroo, our next letter from Sam is a bulldoozeroo.

Cristen: Oh, wow

Caroline: Get it, like a bulldozer?

Cristen: Yeah. Oh, of course I got it.

Caroline: OK, ok, good. OK, but like a bulldozer full of flaming garbage that enraged me. Would you just read the letter, Cristen?

Cristen: Yes, yes, it enraged Caroline to speechlessness, y'all. OK, if you didn't buckle up earlier. Here's your chance now. OK, so this letter comes from Sam, and Sam writes, “I'm currently on a super terrible job hunt. It's been a tiny bit depressing, to be honest. I'm not entirely happy in my current job, and I'm looking for a change. I like the projects I've been working on, but I just feel stifled career wise, and I feel like I can grow and excel more with a different company. Right now, I feel like my husband hasn't been the most supportive of my career and wish to move jobs, especially if they mean an hour or longer commute. Unfortunately, most jobs I'm finding are pretty far away. I've never felt like this before. My husband says that I have a millennial point of view — I'm 28 and he's 43 — and that I should just be looking for a job for the money. And if I'm happy, then that's just an added benefit. But I feel the complete opposite. I want to enjoy the work that I'm doing, have an impact, and if I get paid a nice hefty salary, then that's the extra benefit. We have an almost-15-month-old and my husband keeps saying that he doesn't want the burden of getting our son to and from childcare to fall on him because my commute would be long, question mark. My mom currently watches our son three days a week, and my husband has off every Friday, so we would just be on the hook for a day of child care. I'm having trouble understanding why he thinks he would be so burdened. I think this is why I feel like he isn't supportive of my career. If he was supportive, wouldn't he be happy to help out more with our kid? Maybe I'm just not understanding his point of view. But how do I get him to see mine?”

Caroline: AHHH.

Cristen: OK. Can I give one quick hot take?

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: All right, so you know how you know how the husband's like, oh, oh, oh, you know, you should just find a job that pays a lot of money. And how does he put it, and quote, If I'm happy, then that's just an added benefit. Sir. It sounds like you're treating your marriage the exact same way. You know what I mean? If you're happy, then that's just an added benefit, because I'm not going to do the child care. You signed up for this. I have every Friday off. And how dare you expect me to pick up our child from daycare? She's not even asking you to take care of the kids, sir! I'm yelling now.

Caroline: Yep. To borrow an acronym from Dan Savage, DTMFA. Dump the motherfucker already. Cristen, can we revisit the four horsemen of the divorce apocalypse? Because according to this letter, he is guilty of two things that we know of. He could be guilty of all four. But, Sam, your husband is guilty of criticism and contempt. He is actively not supporting your career and your job hunt. He's actively undermining your career and your job hunt. He is demeaning you as just having a “millennial point of view” rather than respecting your desire to have a more fulfilling job. And he is framing his needs as more important in both word and deed. So in other words, he won't take care of your child, and he doesn't want you to have a longer commute so that you can remain the primary caregiver, and your mother can remain the secondary caregiver, and like Cristen said, he won't even watch your child on his day off. I had to read the letter a second time. Because I thought he didn't want, like the whole day taken up with child care and then I had to reread it to say, oh no, there wouldn't be. The child will be at daycare.

Cristen: He just doesn't want to do a pick up and drop off.

Caroline: Literally a pickup and drop off. And so, Sam, I laid out the four horsemen of the divorce apocalypse. And so I am curious, just just something for you to think about. Are the other two present? Does he also get hyper defensive and angry if you try to talk about things, and is he guilty of stonewalling, so like shutting down, shutting you down? I bet, Cristen, I bet if we dug and got more details, the other two horsemen would be there. Your priorities are just as important. Your dreams and goals are just as important. You are allowed to be a whole person who has a spouse and a child and who has a job and makes money and who enjoys that job. You're allowed to do these things. I think it's amazing that you have a mom who chips in. That's incredible. Not everybody wins the the parent child care lottery like that. That's great. I want you. I want you to find your foundation, because to me, when I read your letter, you sound very tired and resigned, and I think in writing to us what came through, and I could be I could be projecting. But like, what came through to me is like, you already know that this is bullshit. You're already telling us, like, why why does he think that taking care of our kid is a burden? Like, why won't he listen to me? Sam, you know this is bullshit. And I want you to feel strong in your self-worth, your identity and your desires, that they are all a priority and they are just as important as his, and the fact that he's like throwing his age around, my brother is older than your husband. OK, so, like, he is not old enough to hide behind the whole like, oh, well, you know, men of that generation, he's not he's not some like Leave It to Beaver boomer dad.

Cristen: Even if he were, though, that would change nothing about the fact that he's he's minimizing you based on your age and basically telling you how you should feel and what you should want. But also, I think that these dynamics come up so often and unexpectedly for a lot of opposite gender couples when kids enter the picture, because it really does, you know, it changes your entire life. And even if you might have been the most egalitarian couple in the world, the moment a baby enters your life, says the child-free woman, you immediately have to reckon with whatever gender roles are baked in that you brought into that relationship. So that's what you're confronting right now. And I don't think that it's so far gone that you can't course correct. But I think that you have to come correct with yourself first and then approach the husband and really break it down and demand the respect that you deserve, because he is not entitled to tell you how you should feel or what you should want and. This is your opportunity as a unit to talk about what you all want as a family, what are you all working toward together? Also, do you want more kids? Because guess what, if this is the pattern with one, it's only going to get more intense with two plus.

Caroline: Yeah, I. So I went over to UC Berkeley's Greater Good blog

Cristen: Of course.

Caroline: Yeah, where they talk a lot about mental health and and all of that stuff. And they had a big post talking about basically shitty divisions of labor and the real consequences that that has on on mental health. And not surprisingly, you know, women who take more responsibility for home administration, which is like the big umbrella term of housework, child care, all of that stuff, they feel more personal strain and they are less satisfied with their marriages, and, Sam, that's probably no shock to you, but also like if your husband is going to be a good partner, he he should be concerned that you are not super satisfied. Women who feel overloaded and take on more responsibilities than their partner, they also experience more depressive symptoms. And so I want to make sure, Sam, that you are also checking in with yourself. And like Cristen said, you know, build up those relationships outside of your marriage too to make sure that you do have a support network. And they also talked about the perception of unfairness, you know, because relationships strongly benefit, no matter your gender, relationships strongly benefit from being egalitarian, and the perception of unfairness adds strain no matter your gender. But there was a distinct gender difference in terms of the perception of unfairness and like the fallout. And they point out, quote, "Men were more distressed than women by inequality that results in them benefiting less. Women were more distressed by inequality that benefits them more."

Cristen: Oh.

Caroline: And that to me, I was like, oh, period, like yup. Sam, I just want again to reiterate that your priorities matter and what you want matters and just keep in mind that statistically in in very stereotypical heteronormative relationships, men tend to think they are contributing more than they are statistically and they are also really bothered when they feel that they are being pushed unfairly and those perceptions can be part of a conversation that y'all have as well. Ask, be curious, and I hope he is curious too, ask how he feels. Be open. I hope he is open too. But just know that it's it’s not OK for your needs, wants and feelings to take a backseat.

Cristen: And if not for you then for your child, because that 15-month-old who will be growing up, they're little sponges and speaking of perceptions, they will pick up on whether he respects your career or not, whether he is a supportive, active partner or not, whether you feel at least partly fulfilled in your career, if you feel like a whole autonomous person rather than just this like robot mom, kids pick up on that. And studies also find that, you know, households where there is, you know, those kinds of supportive partnerships, that is positive role modeling for children, that as they grow up their perceptions around gender roles and ways that they expect to be treated will benefit as well. So this is an appeal not only for yourself, Sam, but also for the child that y'all are raising together.

Caroline: Yup.

Cristen: We’re gonna take another break.

Carollne: When we come back, an UPDATE from Sam!

Cristen: Oh my gosh I hope her husband has learned how to change a diaper!!!

Caroline: I just hope he’s picked up the kid from childcare at some point!

Cristen: The child is still there. Just still at daycare. Please stick around to find out.

[stinger]

Caroline: We’re back, and we have an update from Unladylike listener Sam - whose letter we just tackled before the break.

Cristen: So, Sam originally wrote to us before the pandemic … and since y’know that was approximately a lifetime ago, our senior producer Nora reached out to her - and she wrote us back with an update! And I intentionally didn’t look at it before we offered our advice because we wanted to just just stay in the moment that Sam was in when she first reached out. And Caroline, I honestly have. I have no idea what shook out between Sam and her husband, so I feel like we are at an award show, can you please tear open the envelope and let us know the answer?

Caroline: OK, so we got this update from Sam and Sam, I'm not going to read the entire letter, but basically she she got a new job. She did get a new job. And she has been working from home because of COVID. So here's the letter.

Cristen: OK

Caroline: “I had been working at my current job less than six months when covid sent everyone to work-from-home mode. So my husband and I were both working from home full time with a toddler, that 15-month-old I mentioned, who's now almost 3, until October. It was challenging, but pretty manageable. We just made it work with our meeting schedules and tried to maximize work time while the toddler was napping or before he woke up for the day. But then in October, we had another baby. For the past three months after our parental leave ended, we've been working full time in the house with a toddler and a baby. It's been pretty stressful, much more than with just our toddler between the two of us adults. We've definitely had a lot of fights regarding the kids during the pandemic. I would say I'm definitely the default parent, which can be very frustrating. Like my husband can just leave and go work on whatever around the house at the drop of a hat and just assume I'm fine watching a toddler and infant, but I can't do the same thing. I have to schedule it out with him and make a plan. I don't think he feels confident he can watch them both at the same time for longer than a few minutes, yet he hasn't been willing to really try. Trying to balance full-time work and full-time mom and full-time wife simultaneously this past year is probably the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. Work life balance has been so tough because it all just blurs together and I constantly feel like I'm either not being the best mom or not being the best employee. I think ultimately, my husband and I just had to agree to disagree about careers, salaries and climbing the career ladder. I really enjoy this position and it's looking like post pandemic we will have much more telework than pre COVID days, which is a silver lining to covid. So we'll just have to wait and see how childcare in the future will look. Also, just getting to be at home with the kids has been a blessing I know I'll be thankful for years from now. I recognize I'm so privileged to have a job and be able to stay at home during these times. I know a lot of people are really struggling.

Cristen: Oh, Sam. What a good mom. Sam sounds like so many moms right now.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: New job, but still hustling in your career, new baby. Husband just can often leave, like becoming the default parent.

Caroline: I, it sounds like, Cristen, that that she has tried to have these conversations about division of labor and that they have sparked a lot of fights. My - the hope that I expressed at the end of our advice piece still stands that I hope that they can have conversations where they both remain open and curious rather than defensive. And that they can come to these things without anger and without prejudgment, but that's really effing hard when you are in the thick of it as you are, Sam. You're in the thick of it. You are definitely in the trenches with two kids and a husband who leaves you feeling like sometimes you're the only parent. I'm sorry to hear that, I'm glad you have found the silver lining of getting to spend that time with your kids. I'm sorry too, though, that your partner isn't more supportive.

Cristen: Yeah, I still want him to do better. He can totally do better. I mean, Sam, you're exactly right that it's not an issue of him not being able to take care of two small children at once, but not trying. And I say that because when I was 18 years old, Caroline, even though this might have been just a horrible plan on the part of a daycare center I worked for, but when I was 18, a daycare center had me in charge of the newborn's room, which meant that I simultaneously took care of about six to eight infants at once.

Caroline: That's a lot of infants,

Cristen: That is a lot of infants. And did I get them all on a schedule at one point or another? Yeah, I did. I did. So if I, an 18-year-old can manage six babies that need to be fed and changed and cannot do anything for themselves, and yes, I even had art time every now and then, OK? And by that time, I mean, I made art for them, but but it's like - guys. And by guys, I do mean it in like the cis het masc way. Guys, this is not rocket science. We know this. This is such an old tired trope of the dad who just doesn't know how to take care of these babies. Now, if a child is breastfeeding, yes, I can understand why it might be harder for the 3-month-old to be taken care of by the husband than the mom, although things like breast pumps also exist and bottle feeding and all of that. I know that you're doing your best and this is not on you at all. Sam, I just wish that as a little experiment, OK, maybe this maybe this is why I definitely shouldn't have children, because I wish that as an experiment, one day you and your husband are home and he's just chilling. And you you grab the car keys and your purse. And you say, "I'm going to leave for a little while," and he's going to say, “What? where are you going? What about the kids?” And you're going to say, “You can figure it out,” and then you close the door, you close the door, you silence your phone and you go get yourself a goddamn foot massage, Sam.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: Because he needs to be left in a position where he has to take care of them, because I think that until he is forced to, he is not. And any listeners who have advice on addressing the default parent dynamic, please let us know, because obviously Caroline and I do not have firsthand experience in that. But man, I want him to take care of those kids more.

Caroline: Yeah, he he is a dad. He is not just some stranger in the house.

Cristen: Oh, yeah, and and isn't he so old and wise, shouldn't he know how to keep a child alive? You know what I mean? If he's going to play that high horse, then come on, man, saddle up.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: That's probably that is very unproductive. That is actually the worst way probably to fight with your partner. But yeah.

Caroline: Yeah. Sam, thank you for sending the update. I know that you are far from alone and that your experience will resonate with a lot of folks.

Cristen: Thanks to ALL of you unladies who have written in to Ask Unladylike! And if you have a burning question for Ask Unladylike, you can drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co or dm us on instagram or facebook @unladylikemedia.

Caroline: And of course, you can support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get all 70+ sweet sweet bonus episodes, a new one every week, at patreon.com/unladylikemedia. And y’all the most recent one - it’s more fabulous unladylike advice!

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week…

Sam: Just because I choose to live my life child free does not mean I'm missing something inherent in my humanity. It doesn't mean that there's like this giant puzzle piece in my soul that's just going to be missing all my life. I made the choices that would like, bring joy to my life. I am fully whole, and that is not something I need to be fulfilled.

Caroline: Even though American birth rates have been dropping for, y’know, decades, being OK with not having kids is practically as taboo as it ever was. So next week, it’s part 1 of our childfree two-parter. We are talking to Unladylike listeners about choosing to go childfree.

Cristen: You don’t want to miss this episode! So make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

Cristen: Get Unladylike.

[BLOOPER]

Cristen: You let things slide, and next thing you know, you got two babies and he's fuckin, you know, taking up woodworking.