Transcript | Ep. 142: Squirting

Lux: It’s pleasurable. I mean, part of it is kind of like a party trick, like I refer to a lot of things as real, like big dicks are a party trick. It’s all kind of like, it's not necessarily qualitatively adding to the experience, but it is like cool. And you know, and for me, it's unpredictable, like it's not like guaranteed to happen. But you know, when it happens, it's just kind of exciting because it's like, Oh, like, that's a fun feature.

[theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. And let's splash right into squirting, Caroline. We’re talking about the gush — or trickle, or dribble — of fluid that some people with vulvas experience when sexually stimulated. Not to be confused with vaginal lubrication or orgasms.

Caroline: Squirting is totally normal and pretty common! Studies have estimated that anywhere from 10 to 70 percent of people with vulvas have experienced it. Whiiiich is a HUGE range - because there's never been a large enough study to nail down definitive numbers.

Cristen: Nonetheless, we’ve known about it for ... not decades … not centuries … we’re talking MILLENNIA, y’all. Squirting was described in a 4th century Chinese text titled “Secret Instructions Concerning the Jade Chamber," as well as the Kamasutra, which was written around the same time.

Caroline: And yet ... squirting still attracts so much scientific debate and cultural fetishization. How can vaginas do that?? Is it just pee? Is it just porn?

Cristen: When the question we should really be asking is...why can't we just normalize squirting already? For some answers and first-hand perspective, we're turning to sex educator Lux Alptraum. Lux is the author of Faking It: The Lies Women Tell About Sex — And the Truths They Reveal.

Lux: I think, you know, you can look at porn and get the impression that, like, it's always this huge dramatic event with massive quantities of liquid that just kind of like put on a light show. It's like the fountain at the Bellagio or something. But that’s not always everybody’s experience. Like for me, it just feels more like this kind of like unfocused explosion. It's just like, There it goes.

Caroline: Lux loves that she squirts, but that’s not the case for everybody! All that overpathologizing about squirting can cause a lot of shame for folks.

Cristen: Which brings us to our second guest who inspired this whole episode. She’s an unlady we’re calling Leah who emailed us about the squirting shame she experienced after listening … to this podcast!!

Leah: And actually, the first email I got back from you guys, when I first got a response. It went to my spam because it had the word squirting in it.

Caroline: Oh no, that's good to know.

Leah: Yeah, so it's a dirty word.

Caroline: Gmail is judgey.

Cristen: The spam filters are off, ppl! Because today, we're taking the squirting conversation out of the science lab, off the porn set and into Lux’s and Leah's lived experiences to find out what all the gush is about.

[stinger]

Caroline: Can you tell us about the first time you ever squirted?

Lux: So, the first time that I remember squirting. I guess I should say, because this is this is important context for like part of my late teens and then kind of off and on throughout my 20s, I was anorgasmic, so I really wasn't able to have an orgasm. I didn't know why at the time. I think being on antidepressants definitely was part of the problem. Anyway, after I went off of antidepressants when I was 19, I think this is like a few months after that, I was just at home. I was masturbating, and I just I was masturbating. I was sitting on an office chair and I just remember, like, almost out of nowhere, my vulva just burst forth with fluid, and I was just like, oh, oh, that's squirting. I didn't know I could do that. And that was - that was the first time that I squirted.

Cristen: And so it sounds like the answer is yes, but did you - did you know in that moment what was happening?

Lux: Oh, yeah, yeah. I was very, very familiar with the concept of squirting. I was just surprised because I didn't know that I could. And like, I brought up the anorgasmia stuff in part because orgasm was for a really long time and still now, really. Orgasm was a really confusing topic for me because everybody talks about orgasm as like, oh, you know it, if you've had it, and if you have to ask if it's happened, like, then you just - it hasn't happened. And it's very this kind of smug, but not very helpful thing. And I knew that touching myself felt good. I knew I was experiencing pleasure, but like orgasm felt mysterious. And so when I squirted, it was just sort of like, Oh, OK, well, yes, like you, you did the thing that feels like concrete proof, like that is an orgasm. And yeah, so I knew what it was, and it was just kind of like, ah yes my body can do this, I am not quote unquote broken. I can experience pleasure and here's the thing that everybody says is so great.

Cristen: So could you describe a little bit more how the physical sensation of it feels for you?

Lux: Yeah, I'm glad you said for me because I think it it probably is different for everybody, but I would say the thing that definitely distinguishes squirting from peeing is that when you're squirting, you don't have control. Like usually like when you're peeing, generally speaking, you can stop mid-stream. You have the ability to stop and start, and like you're the one guiding the experience. When you're squirting, it just sort of comes, and you don't have a choice in the matter, and it’s just sort of this fluid that's kind of erupting out of you. Like sometimes it’s a small amount, sometimes it's a big puddle, but it really is like being overtaken in the way that people talk about, like orgasm kind of overtaking you. It is an involuntary expulsion of fluid, to put it very, very non-sexily.

Caroline: You know, you said a second ago that like, “Oh, OK, like, I'm not, I'm not broken.” Could you tell us a little bit more about that feeling and how like, what role squirting played in sort of your - your body confidence or your body image, especially when it comes to sexuality?

Lux: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to say just right off the bat because this is really important thing for me to communicate. I don't think that orgasm is the end-all, be-all of sex. I don't think that people who have difficulty orgasming or can't orgasm are broken. Like I felt that way about myself, and I don't want other people to feel that way. But that was what was in my mind when I was a teenager because I heard so much stuff about like orgasm, orgasm, it’s the most important thing. That's that's the thing that you're quote unquote supposed to do. And I think that's because, you know, this is this is one of these things that when you have a penis, generally speaking, orgasm tends to be accompanied by ejaculation. They're not the same thing, but they usually go hand in hand. So you never have to be like, was that surge of pleasure an orgasm because you have this kind of physical proof, whereas when you have a vulva, it's very - the experience is often very internal. And so and because we put so much emphasis on this as the end all be all, it's like, Well, am I feeling good or did I have an orgasm? And if I didn't orgasm, but I'm just feeling good, like, could I be feeling better? I think it's like, you know, it sets us up to lose in a lot of ways and just kind of like often feel bad about ourselves. But in that mindset, in that mindset of feeling confused and feeling like maybe I wasn't doing sex well enough or masturbating well enough like to then squirt was like, Oh, I. This is incontrovertible proof, I orgasmed. There it is.

Caroline: For you, does squirting itself feel pleasurable? Or is it more like the cherry on top of a good time?

Lux: I mean, I think - It’s pleasurable. Like I mean part of it is kinda like, it's unpredictable, like it's not like guaranteed to happen. And I don't totally know what does or doesn't make it happen, which is fine. I will say, of course, it can also be a pain because it can be messy. Like I used to - there was a period where it wouldn't happen during sex, but after I had sex, I would just sort of like, be overtaken. And then like, suddenly there would just be a puddle on the floor, just walking around and like, start squirting and then you have to clean up the puddle. And that's kind of a pain. I mean, it's worth it. But but it can be inconvenient, especially if you're not expecting it.

Cristen: How have partners reacted to it?

Lux: In my case, I mean, this is partly because of the kind of people that I date. I have only gotten positive responses. I think. With men, especially, there is some sort of like ego in it where it's like, Ooh, that happened to you. I made that happen. I'm really great and it's kind of like, I mean you, you may or may not have, like, who knows? But, you know, I think I have never been shamed for it, which I really appreciate. I think it's funny when people think it's about them, but you know, I'll I'll let that happen.

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break

Cristen: When we come back, we’re meeting Leah, the Unladylike listener who inspired this episode.

Caroline: Stick around

[stinger]

Cristen: We’re back. Our next guest is an Unladylike listener we’re calling Leah. Like Lux, Leah squirts and has never been shamed for it by her partner.

Caroline: Leah isn't as loud and proud about squirting though. For a while, she didn’t even realize she WAS a squirter.

Leah: I think I just thought sometimes this happens, sometimes it gets really wet and it is really messy, and I wonder why in movies they can, like, have sex in all these different places, but it must just be like a Hollywood thing. I don't know. I just thought this is just what happens sometimes.

Caroline: It was actually Leah’s partner who first identified it as squirting. One day, he was like, you know, not everyone does that.

Leah: But it was pretty neutral to me at that. Like my partner told me, and I was like, OK, that's weird. But. Just was the way that our experience was, and I didn't really ascribe any other meaning to it.

Cristen: That is, until Leah listened to Unladylike episode 67, How to Demystify Vaginas. Our guest was ob-gyn Jen Gunter. We’re big fans of Dr. Gunter and her vagina mythbusing about stuff like douching and shoving jade eggs up there. And in that episode, we asked Dr. Gunter listener submitted questions, including one about squirting. Here’s a clip:

Caroline: “Female ejaculation.”

Cristen: That's in all caps.

Caroline: That’s in all caps. “Myth? Legend? Urine?! I've heard so much conflicting information. Please enlighten us. Do I have a super cooch or do I need to do some kegels? Katie.”

Jen: Katie, you should be writing copy. That's awesome. So there are two things that people think about with female ejaculation. So one is this skene’s glands which are tiny glands on either side of the urethra. And it is true that they can release a small amount of a milky substance you know during orgasm or during sexual activity.

Caroline: So far, no big deal. But the more Dr. Gunter elaborated, the more uncomfortable Leah became. That squirting she’s experienced? Dr. Gunter said that’s just pee.

Jen: The large gush of fluid, so something that is definitely more than a milliliter or two, that is urine. And you know if that's bothersome to you, then kegels might be helpful. Also could be just the way you're wired, and a urogynecologist, a gynecologist that specializes in bladder problems, could do an evaluation you know because coital incontinence, you know releasing of fluid during sex, is something that sometimes we have treatments for would also depend on what is happening. The other thing I say is, you know, sex is wet and messy, and that's in my opinion why they make navy blue towels. Because I mean who - who buys navy blue towels like for their face or their bathroom like for everyday use like nobody. Right.

Caroline: Cristen's raising her hand.

Cristen: I do have some navy towels. But it's precisely because —

Jen: They’re sex towels.

Cristen: — They hide grossness

Caroline: But while we were laughing about navy blue towels, Leah was sent into a tailspin. Squirting suddenly went from being a nice cherry on top of a pleasure sundae to jk you’re just peeing yourself and should maybe start doing kegels and see a urogynecologist??

Cristen: And if all that wetness was urine, what did mean for Leahs sex life?? She felt confused, panicked and grossed out by her own body. After wrestling with this new squirting shame for a few months, Leah sent Unladylike an email.

Caroline: She wrote: “I felt pretty comfortable with this quirk about myself before hearing this episode, and then I couldn't get it out of my head. I felt so ashamed and worried, and it took me longer than I would like to admit to let myself enjoy sex again. I stopped listening to your podcast for a long time, because it would make me think about it. I think the reason I didn't email you sooner is because of that shame - I couldn't face the idea of admitting in writing that this is something my body does.”

Cristen: As soon as we read Leah’s email, we couldn’t get it out of our heads, either. So, Unladylike producers Nora and Michele got in touch with Leah, and she graciously agreed to chat it out.

Caroline: We're so glad you're here. Thank you so much for doing this...

Leah: Yeah, I appreciate it. I mean, I know that I, yeah, I harbored some negative feelings for a while, but I just I love the way that you always approach all these topics, and so I finally just realized like, I think they would want to know.

Cristen: Yes. And you thought right.

Caroline: Going into our conversation, we knew that Leah had felt deeply shamed by Dr. Gunter’s comments. Her emotions were still raw well over a year after first hearing that episode.

Leah: For a while was like, am I being responsible now that I'm not going to the doctor about this? And I was so conflicted because. I was really comfortable with it at the time, and I felt really confident with like, like, I could tell that I wasn't peeing. I could tell that it was a different like. Like, I know where urine comes from. I don't know. Just like. Yeah. I just really started to think like that it was like this, potentially pretty gross thing that was happening.

Caroline: So after you heard that episode and the interview with Dr Gunter, how did hearing her talk about squirting affect your approach to sex or your attitude about sex?

Leah: So it affected it a lot more than I would like to admit. I think sometimes I was nervous even to have sex, and I would get anxious about having like, we have this like waterproof thing that we use and I would get anxious like, OK, is everything like ready are we like, set up OK? And I would just have a lot more trouble like. Just got hard to like, relax into the experience.

Cristen: For a while, Leah bottled up the shame and worry. But it stirred up so much sexual anxiety that Leah eventually told her partner what was going on and how gross she felt about it.

Leah: He was kind of like. Who cares? You know, it's like we. Even if we don't know what it is like. I like it. You know it’s just part of our experience, and it can just be whatever it is.

Cristen: I'm curious if you've ever if you've ever just talked to like even casually like, talk to anyone else who who does. Like run into a friend or who knows?

Leah: No, I wish I had. I did like eventually kind of Google around and I found this one article that had a lot of quotes from different people who had this experience and just that was really validating, and I think that helped a lot. It’s just crazy how hard it is for me to trust myself that just hearing like someone else, not even hearing them, just a quote from them, like it was like allowed me to be like, OK, this could be real, like you could be right about this.

Caroline: How would you describe your relationship to squirting now?

Leah: I guess it's still a bit in recovery, like a little bit fraught still. Like I feel like I have gotten to a place where I'm definitely like. Like now, if I hear people saying it's fake I think it could roll off my back a little bit more because I'm a little bit more just like. OK, I can accept this as something that hasn't been figured out scientifically, that's fine. And like I can trust my own body and be OK with this happening, but I also don't want to lie and say that it is all perfect, you know, like there's still something there. Maybe it's gone down from like a panic to kind of like an annoyance, like I just. It’s hard for me to really embrace it the same way that I used to be able to. Cause there's just still some lingering something that comes up for me, I guess. But I'm able to kind of push it away a little bit more, but yeah, I still kind of hope to get more comfortable with it again.

Caroline: Leah’s definitely not alone in feeling ashamed and confused about her squirting. And it’s not surprising considering how long the scientific community has debated about what it is, where it comes from and, of course, whether it’s “just pee.”

Cristen: Yeah, I’m just gonna quote the first line from a study we read. It was published earlier this year in the journal Clinical Anatomy: “Female ejaculation is a contentious topic.” Contentious, Caroline!

Caroline: How so?

Cristen: Because scientist bros spent pretty much the entire 20th century arguing back and forth about what squirting really is. Where’s all the fluid coming from? What’s in it? Why does it happen?? Some decided it was because of special glands. Others thought it must be a “female prostate” at work. And the rest essentially shrugged their shoulders and called it pee.

Caroline: Yeah, I think the term they used was “coital incontinence.” Big-name sex researchers back in the day were also dismissive. Alfred Kinsey claimed that squirting was a vaginal contraction pushing out fluid, so it wasn’t “actual ejaculation” — y’know, it’s not legit. In the mid-60s, Masters and Johnson called it a “widespread myth.”

Cristen: But all of that back and forth was mostly scientific conjecture. It wasn't until the 1980s that we got the first actual studies on squirting. And surprise, surprise, they concluded that squirting isn't just peeing yourself. Scientific debate solved, right?

Caroline: Wrong! In a way, it's just intensified since then. Today, the central debate is whether we've been going about the squirting research all wrong because there are actually TWO kinds of fluids that vulvas can squirt out. You’ve got the clear, watery stuff that we typically think of with squirting. Then there's a milkier fluid that tends to dribble more than gush out.

Cristen: Now, the scientific jury is still out on the anatomical specifics but as for where it comes from, the milkier fluid seems to originate from the Skene’s glands. Those glands are situated next to the urethra. Now, as for the watery gushing fluid, it seems to come from a tube of erectile tissue called the urethral sponge. That tissue wraps around the urethra and sits near the pubic bone. So the theory is that when you’re aroused, that sponge can swell up and eventually release the fluid through the urethra, hence squirting.

Caroline: And look, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to solve an anatomical mystery like this. The problem is that the whole scientific debate has been framed as telling women and people with vulvas whether or not their sexual responses and pleasure are “real” and valid. And just like Leah experienced, hearing your own bodily and sexual functions debated can mess with your head! Not to mention your sex drive.

Cristen: So up next, we're putting the squirting shame to bed and Lux offers Leah some advice we can all learn from.

Caroline: Stick around!

[stinger]

Cristen: We’re back, and Caroline, there is a squirting study that deserves an Unladylike gold star because it's the only one we found that centers the squirters.

Caroline: Yep, shoutout to Jessica Påfs and her 2021 study, “A sexual superpower or a shame? Women’s diverging experiences of squirting/female ejaculation in Sweden.”

Cristen: Now, for the study, Påfs interviewed 28 Swedish women about squirting, and what they told her resonated SO much with what Leah expressed to us. For instance, a number of women in the study said they didn’t really know what squirting was until they realized they’d done it. And that not knowing made it feel more embarrassing and taboo.

Caroline: One of Paf’s big conclusions was that the whole pee debate “may destroy women’s actual experience of squirting or turn this aspect of female sexual response into something shameful.”

Cristen: Ding! Ding! Ding Ding! Yesss! Påfs gets it. I could honestly talk about this study for the rest of the episode, Caroline. But we do need to talk again about the urethra of it all. Like we mentioned earlier, the gushing kind of squirting fluid does exit through the uretha. But does that mean it’s pee? NO. Here’s Lux Alptraum again, who puts it in perspective perfectly.

Lux: You know what, semen comes out the urethra too and nobody's like, are these men pissing themselves? Like like the fact that - I mean, and granted, you know, semen does not go through the kidneys or the bladder. I get it. There's some difference there. But it's like the the fact that urine and semen exit through the same hole never seems to like discredit cis men's pleasure. But like when it comes to people with vulvas and cis women, we're very eager to tear - tear them down.

Caroline: Lux, too, has felt the sting of being told it’s just pee. Her what-the-fuck moment happened back in 2015. The media jumped all over this small study on squirting that was published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine. Based on its seven participants, the study concluded that squirting is: “an involuntary emission of urine during sexual activity.”

Lux: I hated that study. The first thing that made me really angry was that the way the media packaged this, it felt like all these headlines were like “you dumb bitches, you thought you were doing something cool, but you're just pissing yourselves, you dumb whores.” And so that, like already just irritated me because it felt so condescending. But, you know, for me, it's also like if it's urine like, I don't care that much. And I think like our fixation on discovering what it is is not - it doesn't feel like a good faith exploration. It doesn't feel like, “Oh, squirting is really interesting. I wonder what what makes it happen?” I feel like it's this attempt to discredit people and especially women who are reporting an experience of pleasure. And I think like when we just sort of continue this debate about is or isn't it pee we're losing sight of like, does it feel good or not? Like, I don't want anybody to be like I might be peeing myself, therefore, I cannot do something that gives me pleasure. I think that is so sad.

Cristen: Why do you think that this, that squirting is often discussed in such a vacuum as if sex is not just messy in general. I mean, there's period sex, there's anal sex, there's sweat, there's fluid. I mean, it can get. It can get swampy and gross.

Lux: This is very true.

Cristen: Any old way you do it.

Lux: But I think squirting, A, because not everybody's body does it, so it feels a little atypical. And B, because there isn't really an analog for cis men, it's just confusing. And I think also because it's about the pleasure of people with vulvas, like it's not doing anything for straight men.. We, as a culture, don't really prioritize cis women or women's pleasure or the pleasure of people with vulvas. You know, it's why when I was growing up, there were still debates about whether or not the female orgasm was real. Like. I just think, like so much of what we understand about sex is framed through straight cis men and their worldview and their experience, and if it's not benefiting them and if they don't have an analog, they dismiss it. They downplay it. They say it's not important because it's not important in their world.

Cristen: Well, and I'm similarly curious what you think about the language of how we even talk about squirting, so there's like the term squirting. But then there's also quote unquote female ejaculation, which is very like cis normative and clearly just like, you know, using that like cis male analog. So I'm curious what you think about like, do you ever wish that we had a different term to even describe it?

Lux: I feel like I've heard people call it gushing, which which is, you know, that's cool too. Yeah, I mean, I think female ejaculation is very like technical and stolid. It's telling that we never say male ejaculation. We just say female ejaculation, which which really like exoticizes it. I think, also makes it sound like everybody who has a vulva is a woman. I think “squirting,” like, I think it's fun. I think it is gender neutral, which is really nice. I think it's also like not derivative of a experience that cis men have. So that's kind of nice because it allows it to be its own thing. I think gushing, gushing is also kind of nice, but I think it's it's very evocative, like it's not always a gush. But I mean, I think one of the one of the things with “squirting” is that a lot of people do associate it with porn, which doesn't bother me, but I'm sure bothers some people.

Caroline: From your perspective, what role has porn played in shaping some of our cultural attitudes and perceptions of squirting?

Lux: Porn kind of made squirting this very fetish-y thing and presented it as like extremely dramatic occurrence that could just. Potentially be done on command and like, you know, porn is, by its very nature, a performance, it's a fantasy. That's fine. That's what porn is there to do. I think the problem is when porn is our only exposure to a topic and we don't have any context for what we're seeing. So what's interesting in porn is that a lot of squirting in porn is faked. So when you see, like squirting compilations, A, they're often performers who don't necessarily squirt in other scenes and are using water or pee or whatever to just fake it. And so I think, you know, you can look at porn and get the impression that, like, everybody can just do this and do it on command. And it's supposed to be this huge amount of liquid and it's supposed to look a certain way. And that's not not always the experience.

Cristen: So, one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is because we heard from an Unladylike listener who is working through a lot of shame around squirting. What advice do you have for her?

Lux: A lot of things to say. Like first thing, just a general note on shame. I never- I feel like a lot of times you want to counter shame by being like, “You shouldn't feel bad, like it's great.” And that can sometimes make people feel ashamed of being ashamed. So I want to say, like feeling ashamed like it happens. We live in a society that makes us feel bad about our pleasure. Shame is a natural reaction. Like, I don't want anybody to like, I don't want to compound anyone's shame by making them feel ashamed of being ashamed. The other thing that I would say is that the context of squirting is different from the context of peeing. Like, there's three different contexts right, there's like peeing in the toilet, there's peeing on someone for pleasure, which people do. And then they're squirting. All three of these things are completely different. And that context matters a lot. And I think that context matters so much more than the actual fluid and where it's coming from and what it is. Because it's about your body just losing itself in pleasure, which is such a beautiful thing and such a such a terrible thing to feel ashamed out of. And so, yeah, I just I I hope, I hope that this listener goes back to having wonderful, pleasurable sex that makes her feel good. Like, I hope that she can embrace that her pleasure is what matters here and that there's nothing disgusting or bad or shameful about her pleasure.

Caroline: You can find Lux on Twitter @LuxAlptraum. Her book Faking It: The Lies Women Tell About Sex — And the Truths They Reveal is out right now. Plus, check out her new podcast Say You’re Sorry over on Audible

Cristen: You can find us at instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also drop us a line at hello@unladylike.co. And of course, you can support Caroline and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get all 70+ sweet sweet bonus episodes, a new one every week, AND our undying love. So find it all over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Caroline: Special thanks to Unladylike listener Leah who trusted us enough to share her story. Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week … It’s another installment of Ask Unladylike! And this time, we’re diving deep into marital woes and how to deal with a husband who just won’t meet ya halfway.

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Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

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