Transcript | Ep. 131: Ask Unladylike: BFF 911

Cristen: I'm going to go ahead and say, I don't know if it is a friendship that is long for this world.

Caroline: Yeah I'm going to go ahead and say it's not a friendship.

Cristen: Oh, OK. Oh, wow. Spoilers, OK!

[theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. And we’re back with another installment of Ask Unladylike. And y’all know the drill by now: You’ve sent us your questions, and we offer you the answers that Google could NEVER.

Caroline: Today, we have two letters from unladies who are stuck in some major BFF quandaries. Then, we’ll close things out with some rapid-fire answers to a whole bunch of Unladylike questions.

Cristen: Well Caroline, speaking of friendship … before we dive into our advice this episode, we’ve got a very important follow-up letter to share from a listener named Victoria. She listened to a past Ask Unladylike episode called “Why Can’t I Make Friends.” In that episode, we offered some advice to a Latinx unlady named Jesenia who has a really hard time making new friends, and Victoria kindly called us in on an important angle that we totally missed. So, Caroline, would you like to read Victoria’s letter?

Caroline: I would love to. Victoria writes: I heard a number of perspectives throughout the episode on how Jesenia could make friends, but the one I didn’t hear was that of race/culture. As a fellow Latinx, I have had friendships end because of people’s bias or our cultural clashes. The stereotype is that Latinx women are aggressive/sensitive/loud, which moves counter to what is traditionally expected of white women. Jesenia did not mention the race of her colleagues, but I inferred that she is the only, or one of a very few, Latinx among her coworkers. This is not uncommon. I was one of five on my staff of 230 in Baltimore for seven years. I wish you had discussed the topic of race as it could have related to Jesenia. I hope that you will consider revisiting the topic of making friends in a future episode so that you can take the opportunity to address cultural issues when non-white women try to make friends in majority white spaces.

Cristen: Victoria, thank you so much for taking the time to write to us about this, because you’re absolutely right. Like, we should have discussed that aspect of it. And I’m gonna go ahead and say, Caroline, that was our white lady blindspot showing.

Caroline: Oh, absolutely. That was something that Jesenia mentioned in her email, but we did not take it a step further to actually incorporate that into our advice to her, and that’s a really important perspective that we missed, so I really appreciate Victoria writing in.

Cristen: Absolutely. And y’all, listen: if there are other pieces of advice that we offer on Ask Unladylike that you feel are missing some important points, our inboxes are open, and we so appreciate unladies like Victoria taking the time to correct the record, because listen: We’re offering advice, but we are here learning alongside you.

Caroline: Yeah. Thank you so much - we really appreciate it. And with that, Cristen, I hope you’re ready and got your floaties on, because we’re wading into the deep end of the bestie pool ...

Cristen: I’m a terrible swimmer, so you best believe I’ve got on my floaties! Let’s do it.

[stinger]

Caroline: OK, well, let's get into it. So we have a letter from Sarah, and Cristen, would you like to read it for us?

Cristen: I would be honored. Sarah writes, “My best friend suffers with some mental health issues. Who doesn't really? I have some of my own, though not as severe, and I'm not medicated. I mostly tackle my own shit with introspection and meditation. My BFF is more vocal about hers, which is really great. I know when she's having a particularly hard time of it, and in that way I can be a support to her. However, I'm beginning to feel a little used. I want to be there for her. I want her to know that she can depend on me. I want to be able to help her and listen and be that shoulder to cry on when she needs it. But I don't want to be her pseudo therapist. I also want to go shopping or go out to brunch or have a wine night and talk about all of the things that are going both wrong and right in our lives. It just feels a bit like a pity party a lot of the time. And it's not like I don't want to hear about it and talk about it and help her process things. I just also like to hear about the stuff that's going right or that makes her happy. Any advice? Thanks in advance.”

Caroline: Wow woof.

Cristen: So first of all, I would just like to say that this is such a relatable question.

Caroline: Sure.

Cristen: Sarah seems like a genuinely good friend who is just emotionally burned out. You know, she says, “I don't want to be her pseudo therapist.” I think that is a very healthy friendship position to take, you know, and I also think that a good friend will - with compassion and sensitivity - let a friend know when something is kind of above our pay grade. Like, Sarah, if you are at a point where you feel like you are either emotionally burned out or on the verge of that, but you still very much care about your friend, you obviously care about this person and you want them in your life. And I wonder if, Sarah A) have you told your friend that she should talk to a therapist? Does your friend have a therapist? And if not, why? You know, because you don't you also don't have to take all of it on.

Caroline: Right.

Cristen: There's a point where you can pivot the conversation without being a total jerk and suggest that they talk to someone about it. And you can say it in a compassionate way. That's like, “Hey. You know, I love you and I care about you, and I've noticed when we spend time together, our conversation focuses on the negative, and it sounds like there is a lot going on,” and maybe just ask - ask her what's going on with that and maybe gently suggest that, “Could you talk to somebody about that?”

Caroline: Yeah, and I think one thing that you and I tend to recommend in a lot of different circumstances is asking “Why?”

Cristen: Hmm.

Caroline: Because I think as - as - as a Complaining Caroline, I can spin out real easily and real hard on some negative bullshit and get caught up in it. And I think a helpful thing is to like make the record scratch by saying, why do you feel that way, why do you feel so disempowered? Now, I'm not saying that, like, Sarah's friend is just complaining. You know, Sarah indicates that this - this friend of hers has like genuine mental health stuff she's grappling with. But I think maybe challenging, lovingly challenging like your friend’s negative self-talk could be helpful.

Cristen: You know, Sarah wants to hang out with this friend and she mentions, you know, let's go shopping, let's get brunch, let's, you know, have a wine night. And my thought is maybe see what happens if you suggest an activity that does not leave as much space for the negative self-talk and getting into the cycles of venting and, you know, kind of spiraling into the quote unquote, pity party. So, what would happen if instead, if this is something that's feasible, going out for a walk together, taking a hike together, going to see some art together, like doing something that's kind of outside of both of you that maybe is novel, that can maybe spark discussions and discoveries outside of yourselves and - and see what happens when you change up that environment. But I think that as far as internal work that Sarah might want to consider is, are there emotional boundaries that you need to establish for yourself to protect yourself from getting emotionally burned out? And one personal example that I can offer was when a number of years ago, I was just in a bad relationship with a bad guy and I was living with my best friend at the time. And so as my roommate and my best friend, she heard about it constantly. And Caroline, I will never forget when my dear, dear friend Jane told me, she interrupted me as I was about to yet again talk about this dude, she stopped me and she said, “Cristen. I can't hear about it anymore. I love you. But I have heard you talk about this relationship and how terrible this person is time and again and I just - I can't, you know where I stand on it and I can't.” And I know that's a little bit of an apples / oranges comparison, but I. I was hurt in the immediate because I wanted to talk about it, you know, and it also made me think like, oh, well - Am I too much for you? But when I was able to take a minute and breathe and calm my brain down, like I respect Jane so much for doing that because she was drawing an emotional boundary for herself.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: And also, you know, in the subtext being like, girl, you're talking about this all the fucking time and it's leaving no room, no room for anything else.

Caroline: I think that's a really powerful example and I. I am like 100 percent on board with setting boundaries and just being really real with your friend, if you really are as close as you say, if you're as close as Cristen and Jane, like, I hope you can not only establish a boundary, but even like, gently again, like communicate “Hey, like, I love you and I am here for you and I am sorry that, like, you're going through this really fucking rough time, but. I don't feel heard, you know, I, I feel like this is really lopsided and I'm starting - I am starting to feel a little used,” you know, like ultimately, when you boil everything down, like what's wrong with saying a loving, gentle version of what you told us about your friend?

Cristen: Yeah. language to avoid, I think is saying “You are draining me.”

Caroline: Oh yeah.

Cristen: That is not helpful. On the flip side, you don't have to say, “I am here for you whenever you need me, whatever you need, call on me,” because you - you only have, like, a limited bandwidth of - of how much you can take on your friend's mental health issues. So also manage your friend's expectations for what she can expect from you. And I think that those can be positive ways to not only be a good friend, but also even deepen your friendship together for the long haul, because this does sound like to me it's a long haul friendship and you're going through a rough patch, and it's totally understandable. And this is where you get to do the very uncomfortable friendship work of communicating about things that might feel really hard to say out loud to your friend's face, but that can actually make both of you stronger in the long run.

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, we unpack a letter that… let’s just say, tests the bounds of friendship.

Caroline: Oh boy. Yep! Stick around.

[stinger]

Cristen: OK, Caroline, we have another friendship 911 to tackle, this one comes from a listener named Katrina. Would you like to read Katrina's letter?

Caroline: I'd love to. Katrina writes, “My bestie Jamie and I have been friends for about three years now. Throughout our friendship, I let my guard down and shared details about my depression and my relationship with my family, which is far from great. When I share these things, her responses are always about how her family is worse, yet they do a lot for her and are always super supportive of her. Last year we traveled to Las Vegas to run a 5K and a half marathon. After the 5K, she went on and on about how her mom called her as soon as she was finished and was tracking her run the entire time. After years of hearing this and being in a sensitive place I said, “I know that you don't mean to brag, but it makes me feel bad when you go on about your mom calling and following you because I don't have any support from my family.” I thought she would just say, “I'm so sorry you feel that way, it's not my intention,” and it would be over. Instead, she got very defensive and angry with me. I said, “If I can't be honest with you and tell you how I feel, then how can we be close?” and was met with “Yeah, OK,” as she turned her back on me, this was my breaking point. I had a panic attack full-on shaking and sobbing in the middle of a casino in Vegas. Jamie just ignored me. When we landed at home, I asked, “Are we OK?” And she said “About what?” I said, “Everything that happened in Vegas.” She said, “I knew that there was nothing that I could say to make it better. And you say you want to be alone when you get upset.” This is the opposite of what I wanted to happen. I was crushed. I'm not sure what to do next. Do I try to address it again and hope she listens and is more receptive? Or do I need to accept that she won't see how it made me feel. She is a bridesmaid in my wedding and I refuse to keep her in the bridal party if I can't be open and honest with her, please help.” Cristen, please help.

Cristen: OK, I have some harsh truths for Katrina. And Katrina, I say this because I have been the friend who is having a full blown meltdown and freaking out. I don't know how to communicate with a friend like I. I get that. But what this friendship you described sounded like to me, is a very flimsy friendship.

Caroline: Oh, it's not a friendship.

Cristen: It does not sound like a best friendship, and the only way that you are going to save it is if you and Jamie are willing to get uncomfortably honest, both with yourselves first and each other second, because Katrina. I think that - I think you need to do some introspection about what is actually the source of you feeling bad. Is it Jamie who is making you feel bad? Or is it the things that Jamie has in her life that you wish you had in yours?

Caroline: That's some real - some real talk, Cristen.

Cristen: It's real talk because I've had to ask myself similar questions when I have had similar very strong knee-jerk reactions to otherwise benign things that friends have said to me.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: OK, that’s where I’m starting. Caroline, what about you?

Caroline: This is not a friendship. And that was not an argument.

Cristen: Oh, OK. All right. Tell me more.

Caroline: Here is why you're not friends. Katrina, if we just look at your perspective. And and we we set aside what Jamie's perspective might be. You feel unheard and disrespected, you feel that she's not innocently talking about her family, but that she's actually bragging about having something you don't and then rubbing it in your face. You expressed pain, and you tell us that she literally and figuratively turned her back on you. The way that you describe it, this friend does not respect you. And this was not an argument because you guys didn't hash it out, like there wasn't a fight. You were very upset. She turned her back on you and you continued to be upset. That being said, like, Cristen, we don't know the full details of like what is going on in this relationship, but. I do get the sense, Katrina that maybe because of the stuff that is going on in your own life and the stuff that has gone down with your family, whatever that is, you are naturally and, you know, rightfully sensitive about family stuff. I get it, it's like it makes total sense, but. You also don't control other people. And so it's possible that someone can be sensitive to your trauma, but still be able to talk about their own family.

Cristen: Yes.

Caroline: And it sucks - if she really is like bragging on purpose or rubbing it in your face on purpose, that sucks. And she is not your friend.

Cristen: Right.

Caroline: But she is not doing anything to you. You are not victimized by someone else talking about their mom calling them.

Cristen: Right, and I get the family stuff. I really understand. But Katrina, I also get the feeling that you’ve been harboring this for awhile. And I I think that a really helpful place for you to start for yourself, regardless of the friendship, is asking yourself and getting very honest with yourself about where these feelings are coming from, because I do think that some of this anger is really misplaced. And Caroline, a couple other red flags came up for me because I smelled a couple of ultimatums in this letter.

Caroline: Oh, yeah? Hit me with them.

Cristen: So the first was, “I said, if I can't be honest with you and tell you how I feel, then how can we be close?” Careful with those kinds of if, thens. You want to be able to be honest with a friend, you want an emotionally safe space with a friend. But this feels like you are weaponizing that. And also. You’re weaponizing your wedding, Katrina.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: All caps, do not do that. Katrina, I'm telling you right now, that is bullshit. You've asked her to be in your bridal party. If you want to detonate the entire friendship, then get her out of there.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: But like, I feel like - I feel like you're in some - some toxic territory.

Caroline: Yeah. I mean, I read this - my first pass of this letter, it's like, well, absolutely. This person should not be a bridesmaid at your wedding, but it's not because she's so mean. It's because it doesn't sound like this is really a healthy relationship anyway on any level. It kind of seems like Katrina is using Jamie to self-regulate. Like.

Cristen: Mm! Tell me more.

Caroline: So. You mentioned, and I think this is a great point, that you have to take responsibility for your own feelings, you know? And reading the letter, it - it seems like there's not much self-regulation. And so she says that, you know, “I really let my guard down and opened up to Jamie.”

Cristen: Yeah.

Caroline: Friends can listen, and they can be empathetic, and they can - they can help you in a million different ways, but they can't fix your problems. And it's not their fault if something happens in their life, and it triggers something in you. It's not Jamie's fault. And - and if she was harsh with you and if she was bitchy with you in Vegas and if she was mean, I do wonder if this is a case where a fed-up friend, perhaps someone like Sarah from the previous letter, who was feeling really used finally got pushed to the edge and decided to just bow out.

Cristen: Yeah, and there was the telling detail, too, that Jamie said, I knew there was nothing I could say to make it better, and you say you want to be alone when you get upset. So Jamie might be listening more than you think she is, because it sounds like she was actually trying to do what she thought you would want. And Katrina. I want to close this on a compassionate note, because your feelings, you're not wrong for having these heightened feelings, and meltdowns happen and friendships that are more - that are flimsier than you thought also happen. And that's and that's totally OK. And the piece about the wedding also says a lot to me about why you might be feeling especially sensitive around your family and maybe projecting some of this onto Jamie and maybe why some of these feelings are really heightened and amplified. Because just from my own personal experience, when I was planning my own wedding, I was kind of emotionally blindsided by the family baggage that the process of a wedding and literally joining two families together, that that can really just bring a lot of old issues out of the woodwork. It can be a very uncomfortable process and it can be a very uncomfortable reminder of, you know, of whatever kind of familial dysfunction you're dealing with. And for that, I. I have a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion for you. And I think that in this case, bottom line. You will do yourself and your future partner, let's talk about that person, a lot of favors by first getting really getting quiet and getting honest with yourself and really teasing apart those feelings and asking yourself sort of what - what's the deeper stuff that this is attached to. Take Jamie out of the equation for that. And once you get more clarity on that, then you pull in the friendship and you can start to consider what level of friendship maintenance you want to do on this, how much you want to commit to it, and what you need to do in terms of communicating with Jamie because I do sense a little bit of passive aggression from Jamie. I think you will have to initiate this conversation. Go ahead. Put your big, big friend pants on and just have the conflict resolution and maybe the friendship dissolution that you need to have.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: And. Don't use your bridal party to punish people.

Caroline: Yeah, yeah, wedding party positions are not a reward

Cristen: Exactly. Exactly. So, Katrina, I know, I know these were some harsh, harsh truths, some harsh thoughts, some hot takes. But it's said with love because again, I've been there. I've been there. And you can absolutely get through this too.

Caroline: We’re going to take another break.

Cristen: When we come back: It’s time to go RAPID FIRE!

Caroline: Straight to the Danger Zone!

Cristen: Oh god - hopefully not too dangerous, though!

Caroline: Stick around.

[stinger]

Cristen: And we're back, Caroline, we're doing something a little unconventional for Ask Unladylike. We are going Rapid Fire this round. Are you feeling ready?

Caroline: I mean, so ready, like, I'm not a concise person, but yes, tl;dr yes, let's rapid fire. Let's do it.

Cristen: OK, based on that answer, ok. I'm- Y'all, this is going to be this is going to be a challenge for us because here are the ground rules for our rapid fire. We're going to hear the question.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: We each respond and then no follow ups.

Caroline: It's going to be hard.

Cristen: OK, should we get into it?

Caroline: Let's do it. OK, here we go. All right. This is a question from Maya. Subject line: Tall women.

Cristen: Oh, OK.

Caroline: Hey, Cristen and Caroline, I've got an Unladylike question for you. How can a woman own being tall in a patriarchal society that values small slash petite women? Thanks from a tall chick who's feeling jealous of her short friends. Go.

Cristen: OK, Maya, I am 5’9”, so I feel you on this. And I think some of the best ways that you can own being tall in a patriarchal society that values petite women is to grab a chunky heel, a platform sneaker, a stiletto, if you so desire and claim that space. When I worked in an office for a male boss, I loved little more than meeting with him, running into him in the hallways on days when I was wearing a heel because he came up to my collar bone at that point and it felt like such a flex. And I don't know who who you are attracted to, but folks out there love a tall woman. I typically have gone for shorter gentlemen myself. So I say, get taller.

Caroline: I agree. I just saw a picture of the woman who played Sansa on Game of Thrones with her Jonas brother husband, whichever one he is, and she is so much taller than him because she rocks a heel. She's not afraid to. She's gorgeous. She looks great. They look like they are super into each other. Not that you should base your life on anything that Sansa from Game of Thrones does. But I'm just saying. As a very short girl in this very tall world, I think you should go with what Cristen said and rock your tallness. You can reach things that I never will be able to, um, quite literally. So good luck to you. Get that heel.

Cristen: All right, Caroline, are you ready to Rapid Fire?

Caroline: <makes rock on sound>

Cristen: So this question comes from a listener named Sarah. She writes, I have a guy friend: nice, open minded and really kind, buuut (there's always a but) not very friendly to the idea of feminism, mostly due to bad interactions with that minority of feminists who are, quote unquote, man hating or overly aggressive. How do I explain feminism to him in a way so as to illustrate just how open, modern, i.e. fourth wave feminism is? How do I get him to bypass those biases? Do you have any advice?

Caroline: My advice is I'm not sure why you're spending time trying to convince him of anything re: feminism because like he's either going to support women or he's not. He's either going to support equal rights or he's not. And you can try to relate to him on a one on one level. Share your own life experiences and your own perspective if you think he has empathy, but. I don't know that you need to go out of your way to convince him of something that he doesn't seem to want to be convinced of.

Cristen: Yeah, yeah, I would cosign all of that. My advice to you is, one, you can save yourself the emotional labor, Sarah, and not make this your problem. Two, if this is a friendship that really matters to you and his views on feminism are a sticking point when it comes up, I would encourage you to employ one of the most powerful questions you can ask, which is “why”. Just get him thinking and talking about where his ideas about these shrill feminists really come from and maybe you all can start a dialogue. And finally. My third suggestion, should all of that fail, you can simply send him a copy of the book Unladylike:, A Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and Claiming Your Space. And he can learn all about not just feminists, but patriarchy at large and really get him doing some learning.

Caroline: I hear it's great. All right Cristen, this letter comes from Caitlin. She writes, Living in Atlanta, we have to deal with cat callers, drive-by honkers, whistlers and engine revvers. Is there a proper way to react to catcalling? Should we yell back, have no reaction, flaunt our pepper spray in their faces? I'm tired of this shit - in parentheses, the patriarchy.

Cristen: Wow, Caitlin, I feel you. I think the best way to handle catcallers is to turn around, run at them full speed and scream MARRY ME!!!!

Caroline: Caitlin, I have yelled back at catcallers and it has been immensely satisfying, but you never know when someone has a gun, and I'm not joking. Um, so do what feels cathartic in the moment, but know that whether you yell at them, ignore them, throw a copy of, you know, a Virginia Woolf book at them like. You're you’re not going to change their life philosophy or the way that they treat women. So I think do what feels cathartic and also safe to you in that moment. Cristen, are you ready for our next question?

Cristen: As ready as I'm gonna be.

Caroline: OK, this one is from Sabrina. Sabrina writes, Hello.

Cristen: Hi.

Caroline: I was wondering if you had an episode or recommendations about an issue I'm having. My boss only ever wants to go to Hooters. I told him it's degrading to women, and he called it “that bar I hate.” I can't articulate why it's a terrible idea to try to get female subordinates to go there. Thanks for any help.

Cristen: OK, Sabrina. My most cut and dried advice in this situation, not knowing anything about the dynamic of your relationship with your boss, the workplace at large, any H.R. resources that you may or may not have access to. The simplest advice I can offer is to pack your own lunch, because it might be a total waste of your time, energy and emotional labor again to convince this man of his own sexism. He is playing dumb. And he probably wants to see a woman uncomfortable and trying to explain to him why it is sexist. So you know what? I say let him have his chicken wings and eat it, too. And you pack a sandwich and on your lunch break, look for another fucking job.

Caroline: Nice. Yeah, Sabrina, he's a, uh, willfully ignorant, power tripping shmuck and, um. Because I don't know your exact circumstances, I can't grasp why you would want to bother explaining to him why this is a bad idea. I've also never been in a job where I would have to be dragged to Hooters for lunch and have to deal with that. I have to say that I second what Cristen said, opt out if you can. You don't have to make a big thing of it at the time. But yeah, I would I would find a break room or a the front seat of my car to eat my lunch.

Cristen: And I know this is breaking the rules, but I just have to say two more things: Ok, so, he calls it “that bar that you hate” so, why don’t you just kind of suggest “Hey, why don’t we go somewhere other than that bar I hate! Yuk yuk” and see what happens. And if you do have to go to lunch to Hooters or the Tilted Kilt with him, make sure he tips them well. Play that up. Of like, “If you had to drag me here and make me uncomfortable, boss, make sure you’re tipping twenty-five at least percent.”

Caroline: She can't convince him to do that.

Cristen: I do hear their wings are good, though. OK, Caroline, next up, we have a question from Allie who is feeling conflicted about her boobs. So Allie writes: I'm 32 and therefore not old enough to have saggy boobs, and yet here I am with a pair of tangerines in tube socks thanks to pregnancy and breastfeeding. I'm really conflicted because I have a 3-year-old daughter and I'm trying to be a good example for her by not disparaging myself or my body in front of her. I want her to be the most damn unladylike girl on the planet. So what do you think? Would me getting a breast lift be a bad feminist message to send to my child?

Caroline: Two things can be true, I've said this before, Allie, that you can be a great feminist and want to be a great role model and also feel certain feelings about your body and want to amend it in certain ways. And I don't think that makes you a bad feminist. I think if you are unhappy in your body and you are checking your motivations for what you're doing and why you're doing it. You know, I think it'll be good for your daughter to see you happy as long as you're also emphasizing that, like, your appearance isn't the end-all, b- all of your self-worth and of your value. It's a tightrope. But I don't think it makes you a bad person, a bad feminist, or a bad mom to want to lift up those tangerines a little higher on your chest.

Cristen: Agree with you, C, but before I give my hot take: I do need to address the tangerines in socks. Because listen! Saggy boobs can happen at any age to any body. And if you don’t believe me… we did a whole episode called How to Go Braless -- and so, the first thing I would encourage you to do, both for your self, your daughter, and also boobs at large is to stop the saggy boob shaming.

Caroline: Yes! I love “boobs at large.”

Cristen: Yeah, other than that, my my answer is pretty simple, so Allie asks whether getting a breast lift would be a bad feminist message. Short answer, no, no. And also, your daughter's 3 years old. Chances are she's probably not even going to know that you got a boob lift.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: But she will notice when you maybe feel more able to run around and play with her, because I would imagine that maybe you don't feel as mobile with tangerines in socks. So, Ali, I think that you can give yourself some compassion and grace in this situation and get get those boobs lifted and you will still be an amazing feminist mom and raise an amazing feminist daughter.

Cristen: Thanks to everyone who’s sent us Ask Unladylike questions and follow-up letters, like dear Victoria!

Caroline: If y’all wanna reach out, you can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get our undying love, gratitude and appreciation, plus! ad-free bonus episodes like our recent recap of the delicious, fantastic HBO show White Lotus- omg you’ll love it. I loved it! Go get those episodes at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week...

Julia Turshen: Sometimes I think of my cookbooks as getting to be these places where I get to be sort of like a Trojan horse to talk about things not only like my queer identity, but to talk about many other things, you know, in something that feels like a welcome mat

Caroline: We’re talking cookbooks, y’all! What makes someone a cookbook author rather than a chef? Could it be… sexism?! We ask cookbook author Julia Turshen about what she loves about this type of food writing and what it means to her to be speaking directly to home cooks.

Cristen: You don’t want to miss this episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

Cristen: Get Unladylike.