Transcript | Ep. 130: Britney’s Toxic Conservatorship

Tess: One of my favorite things about Britney is how much she loves Starbucks and coffee. And at the hearing on July 14, she told the judge that the conservators weren't letting her have coffee.

Cristen: What?

Tess: Yes. Yes, like what in what world is that not just like coercion and abuse, and when would you ever just not let an adult have a cup of coffee?

Cristen: My jaw is dropped.

[theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. On today’s episode, we're talking about Britney Spears and conservatorships.

[Oops… I Did It Again Stinger]

Caroline: Britney Spears has spent the past 13 years with virtually no control over her own life — who she sees, where she goes, how she makes and spends her money.

Cristen: That's because Britney was placed in a conservatorship in 2008, while she was under her second involuntary psychiatric hold. Now usually, California law requires at least five days’ notice that you might be placed under a conservatorship. But in Britney’s case, a judge determined that her mental health was dire enough to go ahead and make her father, Jamie Spears, her conservator right then and there.

Caroline: Britney’s conservatorship has never been a secret. But a lot of us never batted an eye at it. After all, in the six years between her breakup with Justin Timberlake and the start of her conservatorship, Britney was painted as reckless, drugged out and crazy. Surely such drastic intervention was warranted, right?

Cristen: But then, in late June of this year, Britney publicly testified for the first time about how she really feels about the conservatorship.

[CLIP - Britney Spears’ Testimony]

Britney Spears: After I have lied and told the whole world, I am OK and I’m happy. It’s a lie. I just thought that maybe if I said that enough I might become happy because I’ve been in denial. I’ve been in shock. I am traumatized.

Cristen: Britney’s testimony was a bombshell. We learned that she feels used and abused. That she was forced to get an IUD. That this 39-year-old woman isn't even allowed to ride in her longterm boyfriend's car without permission.

Caroline: But arguably the bigger bombshell in this whole story is that Britney’s conservatorship — also known as a guardianship — is not an outlier. An estimated 1.3 million people in the US are also living under various types of conservatorships, which means that they — and Britney — are legally unpersoned.

Zoe: And it really does mean that your civil rights, your autonomy to make legally binding choices as simple as deciding where you're going to live or deciding who you're going to spend time with, we take for granted, if we're not under conservatorships, that we can make those choices and they will be respected. But if you're under a conservatorship or a guardianship, another person has the power to make those choices for you. Your personhood is in a lot of ways taken from you.

Caroline: That’s Zoe Brennan-Krohn. She’s a disability rights lawyer for the ACLU who has been working on conservatorship cases for years.

Cristen: Zoe will be our legal expert for this episode who's going to walk us through the ableist origins of conservatorships, how they’re used today, and why she and the ACLU do not stan.

Caroline: First up though, it’s time to Free Britney with Tess Barker and Babs Gray. Tess and Babs are the hosts of the podcast docuseries Toxic: The Britney Spears Story.

Cristen: Tess and Babs have also become synonymous with the Free Britney movement thanks to their previous podcast, Britney’s Gram. They originally started it as a kind of joke and ended up uncovering information about Britney’s conservatorship that the public hadn’t known.

[stinger]

Caroline: Like we mentioned, Britney Spears’ conservatorship was put in place in 2008. But our story today starts in 2017. Britney was winding down her Vegas residency. She’d been performing more than 60 shows a year. In press appearances, she put on a happy face and always thanked the hundreds of thousands of Britney stans who came to see her in Vegas.

Cristen: But if fans wanted to see Britney being Britney, there was only one place to go. Here’s Tess Barker.

Tess: Her Instagram was this place that was just really fascinating, there was always like a certain je ne sais quoi to it, like it was this really enigmatic, interesting place where she was just always like posting memes that seemed to have maybe some other meaning… dance videos, fashion shows and stuff like that. So it was something that we always kind of like were - we had a group text that we were always texting our girlfriends about, like, what's this video? What does it mean?

Caroline: One post in particular convinced Tess and Babs that they needed a whole podcast to discuss what Britney’s grams could mean. It’s a 30-second video from October 2017. Britney’s outside on her mansion veranda painting a pair of canvases. She’s wearing short shorts and a satiny bralette with a smock over it. The camera pans around, and we see she’s painting one of them with big flowers and the other with colorful swirls. Then the camera pans back around, and Britney has traded her smock for a sheer sleeveless button-down.

Cristen: She captioned it: “Sometimes, you've just gotta play!!” Followed by 17 emojis — and yes, I counted!

Tess: So it was like this, I think, just the perfect example of the enigma that is Brittany's Instagram. And so when that video dropped, we were at brunch and Babs was like, what if we started a podcast where all we do is just like overanalyze Britney's Instagram?

Cristen: Such a brilliant idea.

Babs: We just thought, you know, it's not like we had to do a ton. We just had to, like, really look at her posts seriously and over seriously. Y’know. And that was kind of the joke, really, was just we just took it too far.

Caroline: Not long after Britney posted the painting video, Britney’s Gram, the podcast, was born.

[CLIP: Britney’s Gram]

Babs: OK.

Tess: Well, here we are.

Babs: Here we are. The first episode of Britney’s Instagram: the podcast.

Tess: Oh my god. I’m so excited, Barbara.

Babs: I mean, this has been a long time coming.

Tess: Yes

Babs: We, oh. We don’t need to talk about ourselves. Let's just talk about Britney….

Tess: I think we should talk a little bit about ourselves...

Babs: It was a comedy podcast. We were just talking about it from that viewpoint. And then occasionally - we both knew about the conservatorship. I don't think we really knew obviously the depths - well we definitely didn't know the depths to what it was exactly. But when we would look at her posts, we did have an eye sometimes to like, is she saying more? Is she talking about how she's being controlled, things like that.

Caroline: Tess, who’s a reporter by trade, started digging around to understand how conservatorships and guardianships generally work. She and Babs wanted to know just what was up with Britney’s situation.

Babs: Tess noticed, you know, hearing was going to happen where her, one of her co conservators of her estate at the time, Andrew Wallet, was going to be asking for a big raise. And the reasoning that he gave in this document was that Britney was doing so well and she was, you know, exceeding expectations. So therefore, he should get a raise because she's doing so great. And from what we knew of conservatorships, that seemed odd because obviously, you know, it's not generally intended for somebody who is working all the time, performing, making money, et cetera.

Cristen: Tess and Babs knew something felt fishy, so Tess dusted off her press credentials and went to the court house for the hearing.

Tess: There was almost no one else there. There was like one freelance reporter there from I think, like, you know, one of the entertainment outlets. And then there was someone there from Radar Online. It was a very sparsely attended hearing. Uh, the bailiff seemed surprised to see someone in the audience wanting to observe the hearing. So basically, we all got to the courtroom. They closed the hearing, as they often do, which means that everybody will show up and do roll call, and then one of the attorneys will say, “We're going to discuss something private. So we need to close this hearing.” So the reporters left the room. They were in that room for about 10 to 15 minutes. And by the time they came out, the judge had granted Andrew Wallet that raise that he was seeking.

Caroline: Wallet left that quick meeting with a fat new salary of more than $35,000 per month. And even though that money came from Britney’s bank account, she had no say in the matter — because that's how a conservatorship works.

Tess: But the big thing that really like stuck out to me that day actually is as I was leaving that hearing, a woman got my attention and she's like, “Excuse me, are you a reporter? Because I have a story for you.” And she was like, “Are you aware about like what conservatorship abuse is? And it's this really big problem in this country?” And I don't even know why they were at the courthouse that day. It didn't seem like they were - had a hearing or anything. It was like a bunch of advocates against conservatorship abuse gathered at the courthouse. And I had this really weird feeling of like, well, that seems kind of like synchronicity, like, why did I run into those people and oh, my God, is this, like, even bigger than Britney? And so I got in the car, and I remember like texting with Babs while I was in the Lyft, like “Not only did this guy get this raise, but I ran into all these people and they're also having problems. And I think this is like a really big thing.”

Cristen: Then, in January 2019, Britney announced she was taking an indefinite hiatus from her Vegas residency. Around that same time, her Instagram went dark, and she basically vanished from the public eye.

Caroline: Without fresh grams to dissect, Tess and Babs continued digging in on the conservatorship. Their concern about Britney’s disappearance escalated to panic in April. News broke that Britney had allegedly checked herself into a mental health facility.

Cristen: But days later, Tess and Babs got an explosive tip.

[CLIP: Britney’s Gram]

Babs: Hello everyone and welcome to Britney’s Gram.

Tess: We’re here as you’ve already found out. This is a special emergency episode.

Babs: Y’know, We have a hotline, people call in. They leave us messages. We got a voicemail from an anonymous source that we have verified worked as a paralegal in an office involved in Britney’s conservatorship. We should just play it and then we’ll discuss.

Tess: Yeah, here we go.

Anonymous caller: Hi there. I cannot disclose who I am. I just heard the latest episode. You guys are on to something. I used to be a paralegal for an attorney that worked with Britney’s conservatorship. I’m no longer with them. And what is happening is disturbing to say the least.

Caroline: The caller went on to say that Britney had actually been in the mental health facility for months and that she was being held there against her will. Tess and Babs couldn’t believe what they were hearing. They published that episode with the voicemail as fast as they could, turning it around within a few days.

Babs: And then we published it overnight, basically because we wanted it to get to the corners of the Internet before it can get asked to- get taken down or something, you know. And along with it, we made the Free Britney graphic with the white text on the pink background because we knew, you know we were thinking how that Fyre Fest thing with all the orange squares popping up, we thought that that would catch people's attention, you know? And it did. It did.

Tess: Immediately people started retweeting it. And then by pretty early in the morning, Lynn Spears had posted a meme that seemed to be sort of a reference to needing to fight for Britney and was liking comments about Free Britney and about Britney being-- And that's when we really realized, like, OK, there's our confirmation, like this is real. We kind of have Lynn's support on this. Yeah, it was just like all the entertainment magazine shows picked it up, it was just I mean, it just. That's kind of what the Internet was about that day, was Free Britney.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, #FreeBritney transforms from a meme into a movement, and Britney breaks her silence.

Caroline: Then, ACLU lawyer Zoe Brennan-Krohn blows our minds with the massive disability rights restrictions inherent to conservatorships.

Cristen: Stick around.

[stinger]

Cristen: We’re back with Tess Barker and Babs Gray. The phrase “Free Britney” was first coined by superfan Jordan Miller back in 2009. But folks reacted to it as more of a joke — like, LOL, it’s just a stan caring WAY too much about a pop star.

Caroline: All of that changed after Tess and Babs dropped that emergency episode of Britney’s Gram in 2019. A few days later, the first Free Britney rally took place. Dozens of fans and disability rights activists gathered outside the West Hollywood City Hall demanding that Britney be released from the treatment facility.

Cristen: But Britney herself hadn’t said a word. In fact, for years she didn’t speak publicly about wanting to get out of the conservatorship.

Caroline: Fast forward two years to the conservatorship hearing heard ‘round the world this past June. Tess and Babs knew Britney would be testifying. But they assumed it would be a closed hearing. They went to the courthouse with low expectations.

Babs: But when we got there, oh, my God, it was a sea of people, like hundreds of people, media and supporters swarming outside the courthouse.

[CLIP - Free Britney protestors]

Voice: What do we want?

Crowd: Free Britney!

Voice: When do we want it?

Crowd: Now!

Cristen: So what was it like inside the room, Tess?

Tess: The courthouse was almost completely empty. And all you really saw were the officers outside and then myself and the couple other handfuls of people that were allowed inside. And then once we got in... again, because of covid, we had to sit far apart and everyone was masked and the bailiff had been really strict, like, “you guys have to make sure you're really quiet for this entire hearing. No electronics, no phones, no nothing.” So the juxtaposition of that need to be really quiet and reserved against just the drama of what was happening, kind of created its own tension.

Caroline: The attorneys, not surprisingly, wanted to close the hearing.

Tess: One of the lawyers, actually the lawyer for the conservator of her person, started to do that song and dance. And was like, “Your Honor, we're so glad Britney's here. We think she might want to talk about sensitive information. So we think we should seal the room today.”

[CLIP - Britney interrupts]

Lawyer: And it could be that she brings up issues related to her family and her minor children and they have their own privacy rights and I think anything said about them —

Britney Spears: They've done a good job at exploiting my my life and the way that they've done my life. So I feel like it should be an open court hearing and they should listen and hear what I have to say.

Tess: And it was just this total needle-off-the-record-player moment. I was in the courtroom. There was like a handful of other reporters in there, too, and we all were just looking around each other like, oh, my God. This is actually happening. So it was only open because Britney insisted that it was open.

[CLIP - Britney’s Testimony]

Britney Spears: I truly believe this conservatorship is abusive. And we can sit here all day and say “oh conservatorships are here to help people,” but, ma’am, there’s 1,000 conservatorships that are abusive as well. My Dad and anyone involved in this conservatorship, and my management who played a huge role in punishing me when I said no ma’am. They should be in jail.

Caroline: In her 23-minute testimony, Britney revealed that she has an IUD that she’s not allowed to get removed. That she wasn’t allowed to have her own cell phone. And that she was forced to go on tour in 2018. She told the judge that after she refused to perform a show in Vegas, her psychiatrist took her off the meds she’d been on for years and switched her to lithium.

Cristen: Britney also explained how her dad, as conservator, would threaten to keep her from seeing her kids or her boyfriend if she didn’t keep performing.

Caroline: So what was it like hearing Britney actually get to speak for herself publicly?

Tess: It was incredibly emotional, I mean. Just especially after, you know, reporting on this story for two years and knowing how restrictive her life is, just knowing what it would have taken for her to make that step, to even speak and even compose the letter that she was reading was really, really impressive, I mean, I was really proud of her. But it was also totally infuriating, of course, like the things you were- she was describing, I think were just like clear cut signs of abuse and honestly like human rights violations. So it was like this weird mix of like so proud of her. So so, you know, I felt it was vindicating to hear her say out loud the things that we've kind of known for a couple of years were going on, but also just really, really disturbing and infuriating.

Cristen: Britney’s revelations were stunning and heartbreaking. But like we said at the top of this episode, there are more than a million people in the US living under conservatorships.

Zoe: I think the most unusual thing about her conservatorship is how much people are paying attention to it.

Caroline: This is our legal eagle, Zoe Brennan-Krohn. She’s a staff attorney with the ACLU's Disability Rights Project.

Zoe: I think that the pattern of a person having what looks from the outside to be some sort of mental health crisis or psychiatric crisis of some flavor ending up in a conservatorship and then having that become permanent over at least the last 13 years is something we see a lot and, you know, the very large amounts of money are are unusual and her fame and there are - there are things that are - it's not exactly the same as what we see every day, but it's not that far off, actually.

Caroline: The ACLU isn't directly involved in Britney’s case. But they did file a brief with the court supporting Britney’s desire to choose her own lawyer for her conservatorship.

Cristen: Zoe herself has been extra busy ever since Britney’s explosive June hearing got pretty much everyone going, Wait. Conservatorships are what now??

Zoe: Conservatorships or guardianships are systems where a court, where a judge takes away the rights and the ability to make choices from one person and gives another person the power to make choices for that person. So it's taking away the rights from a person with a disability and giving someone else the power to make choices and direct that person's life, basically.

Caroline: Most of the time, conservatorships start with good intentions. For example, a parent who has an adult child with intellectual or developmental disabilities may need extra support. Or a parent with dementia may not be capable of making financial decisions.

Cristen: But the vast power that guardians-slash-conservators have makes it easier for people with BAD intentions to take advantage. Especially when there's a ton of money at play, like Britney’s estate. *cough Jamie Spears cough*

Zoe: Power corrupts and especially when people can exercise power without transparency, because most of these, you know, the day to day decisions as a conservator, you don't have to report to the court. And that there is just so much power that the conservator or the guardian has that we just know that those situations are ripe for abuse.

Caroline: It doesn't help that the conservatorship process varies from state to state, and there’s basically no nationwide oversight. We don't even know exactly how many people are conserved in the US and for what reasons. It’s truly the Wild Wild Wild west.

Cristen: And once you're placed in a guardianship, it's extremely hard to get out of.

Zoe: There's just so much paternalism towards people with disabilities and this sort of sense of viewing people with disabilities as kind of perpetual children, that there's a bias in the system towards thinking that once a guardianship or a conservatorship is established, it should proceed. And so there - there isn't a system where people have to affirmatively show this is why we really need this really drastic intervention to continue.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break

Cristen: When we come back, Zoe dives into the intersection of reproductive justice and conservatorships, and at one point, leaves me speechless.

Caroline: Stick around y’all.

[stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Zoe Brennan-Krohn, disability rights lawyer for the ACLU.

Cristen: So as we mentioned earlier, one of the things Britney revealed in her public hearing is that she’s forced to have an IUD as part of her conservatorship. That information was pretty shocking to hear, but according to Zoe, it’s standard fare for a lot of conservatorships.

Caroline: That's because conservators and guardians make medical decisions for the conservatee. That often includes reproductive choices like access to birth control, abortion, prenatal care. Like, they have the authority to decide whether a conservatee becomes a parent.

Zoe: It's really troubling and, you know, I think in the case of Britney Spears that — and with many people — if you think about sort of the difference between permanent sterilization and many years of forced use of a very highly effective form of birth control, like an IUD, they're not really that different.

Caroline: Reproductive autonomy is a longstanding disability rights issue, going back to a 1927 Supreme Court case, Buck v Bell. In that case, the Court said it was OK for states to forcibly sterilize disabled people to prevent them from having children who might also have disabilities.

Zoe: And it's - it's pure eugenics. And it's still gone on for most of the 20th century that there have been - you know there are tens of thousands of people alive today who have been forcibly sterilized by the states that they - that they live in because they have disabilities. And so there's very strong echoes of that, in conservatorship generally in the sense of the control that a person has, but more specifically in the reproductive freedom aspect of this, that that making decisions about a person's reproduction on their behalf, because they have disabilities is very closely tied to a really abhorrent and really recent history.

Cristen: This might be a stupid question, but has Buck v. Bell been overturned?

Zoe: It has not.

Cristen: Really?

Zoe: Really. There are not states that allow for sterilization simply by virtue of disability, but there are states, and California is one of them, where there are processes you can go through to have a person sterilized against their will because they're in a conservatorship.

Cristen: Wow OK my mind is truly blown. Well there are some alternatives to conservatorship, and one I was curious to hear more about is supported decision-making. So could you explain what supported decision-making is?

Zoe: Supported decision making is one of the big alternatives, which is essentially what everyone with and without disabilities is doing all the time, which is that people choose folks that they rely on to help them think through and make their own decisions. So if I were to buy a car, I've never bought a car before, I don't know anything about cars, I, sitting here right now, do not have capacity, quote unquote, to make an informed decision about what kind of car to buy. But what I would do if I were buying a car was talk to people who knew stuff about cars and ask, you know, ask them what they think. And talk to people who know what my preferences are, and I’d do research online. And then I would make my own choice. I wouldn't be outsourcing the ultimate choice to these people or the Internet, but I'd be using them to help me make this choice. And that's what supported decision making is.

Caroline: When it comes to these kinds of alternatives to guardianship, Jenny Hatch is a trailblazer. Jenny, who’s now in her late 30s, has Down Syndrome. For years, she was under the guardianship of her parents, who placed her in a group home against her will.

Cristen: In 2013, Jenny decided she wanted out from under her parents’ control. Jenny petitioned a judge to lift the guardianship in favor of living with friends. She argued that a system of supported decision making would allow her to direct her own life — without sacrificing pretty much all of her civil rights.

Caroline: The judge agreed, and that decision made Jenny Hatch the first person to win back the legal right to choose where and how to live with supported decision-making. That also established a legal precedent for a middle ground between guardianship and going it alone. And that could be what Britney settles on, too.

Cristen: So at this point, do do you think that Britney will be able to end this conservatorship?

Zoe: I definitely hope so. And she has this lawyer now who is has filed things to try to get her father out of the situation. I do think it's always an uphill battle to get out of a conservatorship. And I think, you know, between her fame and her. Her money and her lawyer, I think she's in a certainly in a better position now than she has been in the past to get out, and I really hope that she's able to.

Cristen: Well, Britney has asked the judge to end her conservatorship without having to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. And it seems like her family has always kind of used her mental health as a shield to keep the details of her conservatorship private. So, if Britney were to get some kind of evaluation, could she keep it private, if that's what she wanted?

Zoe: Yeah, I mean, it should be still private, typically, you know, medical or mental health evaluations like that would be confidential in a court filing. But I think the other thing is that the diagnosis really shouldn't be the point that there are many people with many types of disabilities, significant disabilities, less significant disabilities and all sorts of diagnoses who are able to direct their own lives like it really should be an evaluation of how she lives her life and how she would want to live her life. So, you know, I think one of the things that people talk a lot about is, wow, she has so much money. How would she be able to manage this huge fortune, which, you know, I don't have a huge fortune, but my understanding is that people who do typically are not just like going to their like online Schwab bank account to like look at how many millions of dollars they have. Right. Like people pay people to manage their fortunes, is my my understanding as someone who doesn't have one. And so there's no reason to say, like, well, could Britney Spears do this all herself? If she could say, “I would hire a financial adviser, like everyone else I know does,” that's it. Like there's no reason that you would have to say, well, “Unless you could do it all by herself, she can’t do it.” And the same with helping manage her finances or managing her house or like all sorts of things that, particularly because she has so much money, that there's no no need to say, like “what would it be like if she was all alone trying to juggle all this stuff” if she doesn't want to be all alone and doesn't have to be all alone.

Cristen: And also, like what an unrealistic standard. Like who among us can do it all alone?

Zoe: Right, exactly. And that's you know this - this particular lens that people at risk of guardianship and conservatorship get viewed through where any choice, you know, there's this idea of this ideal, quote unquote, best interest. And if you've ever done anything that is not consistent with your best interest, it will dog you for the rest of your life. If you are perceived as being disabled and you're in this world. You once dated someone who was kind of a jerk? You will never hear the end of that. And that will be always something the judge will look at to say, “Remember that time when you were 20 and you dated that guy who was kind of a jerk?” and we would all just wilt under that. But most people without disabilities aren't looked at that way, aren't examined in that way. And it's a real double standard. And it's it's horrible.

Cristen: Do you think that her case could have any positive ripple effects for the conservatorship system at large?

Zoe: I hope so. I think it's great that people are learning about the system and starting to, you know, ask the kind of questions like and having the kind of conversations like we're having about, you know, how her case, the ways in which her case is not an outlier and how this system is really functioning in her case, the way it functions for for a lot of people. And so I hope that it might be a real moment of change in sort of how we think about and and normalize — or perhaps stop normalizing so much — this sort of routine stripping of civil rights.

Caroline: As of this recording, Britney finally has a lawyer of her own choosing. Jamie Spears has said he intends to step down as her conservator, but he didn't say when. Britney’s next conservatorship hearing is scheduled for late September.

Cristen: Meanwhile, Britney’s been living her truth where else but on her Instagram. This summer, she posted another painting video, except this one was much less cryptic than the one that Tess and Babs obsessed over in 2017. Britney’s inside her mansion in a sports bra, short shorts and tennis shoes and painting a massive canvas with abandon. The caption reads in part: This is an expression of how I’m feeling at the moment … rebellious… colorful…bright…bold …spontaneous…magical…so obviously showing my true colors

Caroline: Y’all can follow Tess and Babs on Instagram and Twitter @britneysgram. If you want to learn more about Britney’s story and conservatorships, all 10 episodes of their podcast TOXIC are out right now.

Cristen: Thank y’all so much for listening! If you haven’t already, would you please take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts — it’s a HUGE help, and it makes it easier for other folks to find the show!

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me directly by joining our Patreon; you’ll get our undying love, gratitude, and appreciation, plus weekly ad-free bonus episodes, including our recent conversation on a WILD, feminist goth band called ROCKBITCH!! Subscribe over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Abigail Keel helped with editing on this episode as well. And special thanks toMorgan Whitlatchof the Jenny Hatch Justice Project and Sara Luterman for their help with this episode.

Caroline: Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week.. it’s our latest Ask Unladylike episode - BFF help edition. We’ll be tackling some listener questions about how to deal with friends who are treating you more like a therapist than a bestie, and what to do when you and your friend have a falling out.

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