Transcript | Ep. 106: Rom Coms with Lindy West

Lindy West: Like, I don't know not to harp on Love Actually, but like the idea that the best man at your like your husband's best friend. That like, it's cute for him to be obsessed with you, shoot your wedding video and only do close ups of you so then you know, come to your house and like do the thing with the signs, which is the real pandemic.

[Theme music]

Caroline: Cristen, I. Love. Rom coms.

Cristen: Oh me, too! What’s in the Caroline Criterion Rom Com Canon?

Caroline: Well, I was practically raised on classics like Sleepless in Seattle, 16 Candles and particularly My Best Friend's Wedding...

Cristen: OMG, My Best Friend’s Wedding tore me UP as a tween. I had the hots for Rupert Everett, for one thing. And I totally bought into Julia Roberts’ Cool Girl character. I mean, she’s fucking diabolical and should really talk to a therapist about why she attempted to break up her best friend’s wedding, BUT yeah. Loved it.

Caroline: What about you though? What other kinds of rom coms were you into growing up?

Cristen: Welllll, as y’all know my parents were suuuuper strict, and the vast majority of movies I was allowed to watch were black and white, old-school Hollywood stuff. Which sounds like a drag, but in the late 1930s and 1940s, that was actually considered a golden era for rom coms -- so I was watching lots of fast-talking dames who dazzled men with their wit and eccentricities. Oooh wee! Which is probably why I’m a terrible flirt.

Caroline: Reax. Well, this is the perfect time for us to be having this conversation. This episode is coming out the week after Thanksgiving, which means it is peak rom-com rewatch season. Like, some TV channel somewhere is probably airing a When Harry Met Sally marathon like right now

Cristen: It’s also the perfect time to talk about rom coms and allll their problematic tropes with today’s guest, Lindy West. Lindy is a film critic-turned-feminist-writer- turned-New-York-Times-opinion-columnist.

Caroline: She’s also the co-creator and executive producer of the Hulu show Shrill, which is based on her memoir. … ANNNND she recently published an essay collection titled Shit Actually in which she revisits a bunch of iconic movies to ask: Are we "allowed" to like very imperfect pop culture?

Lindy: It's really hard to adjust to the idea that maybe we just can't have any things from the past. I mean, obviously, people can make new things that maybe succeed in not hurting anyone. That would be the dream. But, it’s complicated.

Cristen: Just like the Nancy Meyers rom com, it IS complicated. But does it have to be? Lindy’s one of our favorite feminist writers, and she truly appreciates flawed blockbusters, irredeemable Hallmark movies and retrograde rom coms just as much as we do.

Caroline: So today we’re talking with Lindy about reconciling our problematic faves, her number-one rom com and why she maintains that Love Actually is — to quote the title of her book — shit, actually.

[Stinger]

Caroline: Lindy’s writing is always hilarious and biting, but her first book, Shrill, was also intensely personal. Then her second book, The Witches Are Coming, was intensely political. So when she first pitched the idea for Shit Actually in 2017, Lindy just wanted to make people laugh and give herself a little comic relief, too.

Lindy: I have wanted to do this book for a long time just because this is my most favorite thing to do. It's so fun. Like I just love watching a movie and writing down all my shit talk and then typing it up and calling it an article. Like, what a ridiculous thing to get paid to do. And now that I did a whole book of it, I'm like, that's my career now. Just going to write a sequel to this book till I die.

Cristen: Shit, Actually takes on 23 culturally significant movies including Honey, I Shrunk the Kids; Top Gun; Titanic; and Shawshank Redemption, but today we’re picking Lindy's brain specifically about rom-coms.

Caroline: What is the appeal of the rom com? Like why do we tend to love watching them so much?

Lindy: I mean, what's better than rom and com, those are like the two best things. Like I'm a very wimpy person, like I don't like to watch anything sad. real life is sad. I'm already sad all the time. I'm weak in that way. And I don't I'm not good at, like, leaning into the feelings and just feeling them. I want to run from them. So that's at least that's the appeal to me. Like, you know you know what you're getting you know, you're getting like hot people in a pickle and then they get out of it and then they kiss. That's all I need, some jokes in there, like a rom com that I was like, actually good jokes. What's better than that? But yeah, I mean, I think people crave familiarity and low stakes. And again, hot people and kissing and jokes.

Caroline: I want to go to that party. Hot people and kissing and jokes.

Lindy: Parties are illegal. Haven't you heard?

Caroline: Yeah. I know, in the future.

Lindy: Oh, no. Do you not know about the pandemic?

Cristen: We are in Georgia. So in an op ed piece that you published in The Times, you wrote about growing up and watching movies and the ways that they demonstrated how what women should yearn for and tolerate from men. And so when it comes to rom coms, specifically, what sorts of things were you - were you taught growing up from them that women should yearn and tolerate from men?

Lindy: I feel like you should yearn for any scrap of validation, you know, like you should yearn for a guy who is infatuated with you and stalks you, but also a guy that is mysterious and ignores you. Like, literally anything on the spectrum is fine. And you should tolerate literally anything as long as there's kissing at the end. I mean, truly anything short of, you know, outright physical or sexual abuse, not to bring it way down, but, you know, I really feel like emotional abuse, very romantic in the 80s and 90s, you know, like definitely stalking behaviors were hot, hot stuff.

Caroline: Lindy is spot on! Let’s take a quick walk down creepster lane, shall we?

Cristen: Oh my God, let me get my mace, where do we even begin?? There was Ben Stiller’s character Ted in the blockbuster There’s Something About Mary. He hired a private investigator to track down his high-school prom date.

[CLIP - There’s Something About Mary]

Ted: Hey, hey, hey. I’m not a stalker. I’m not a stalker. She’s a friend of mine.

PI: Oh, sure she is. That explains why she’s got an unlisted number and you haven’t heard squat from her in 13 years. Real chum.

Caroline: And who could forget John Cusack’s character in Say Anything, showing up unannounced at his ex- girlfriend’s house to try and win her back with a boombox and a Peter Gabriel tape?

MUSIC: In Your Eyes

Cristen: Just a tour de force of white male privilege.

Lindy: You know, like I feel like the sort of directive was to turn yourself into a desirable object and then wait for someone to desire you, which just actually isn't fulfilling, even if you can achieve it, and it's also not achievable for most people because people have personalities and autonomy and it's actually not pleasant to just sort of be a cipher for men to project their insecurities onto and turn you into a haunted doll that cures all their problems.

Caroline: Well can we - can we flip the gender script here for a minute? Because let's talk about another stalking thriller titled Sleepless in Seattle. When I was a child, I devoured all of these types of rom coms and, you know, Nora Ephron is supposed to be the queen and I remember loving Sleepless in Seattle, but watching it as an adult, I was fucking horrified because, again, like, they don't fucking know each other. And Meg Ryan just decides, she just decides with her long sweater and her long hair, that she's going to, like, break up her relationship with Bill Pullman. Right? Bill Pullman?

Lindy: Wow

Caroline: And go fucking stalk Tom Hanks, who's this, like, grieving widower, single dad. Like, what the fuck?

Lindy: Yeah. And she like ropes in his child, which she was like extremely inappropriate. Yeah. Actually, speaking of Bill Pullman, I have been thinking, people keep asking me on this book tour like, what's my favorite rom com? And I've been saying While you Were Sleeping, which.

Cristen: Lindy.

Lindy: Is so fucked up. And if it was gender swapped I would absolutely have - I would organize a march. But, you know, OK, I don't know, it's Sandy B. It's Sandy B, it's Bill Pullman again. Peter Gallagher. I don't know. I just - it's a good movie. Sorry, I don't know it. Look, is it a double standard? Maybe, but not really because of male privilege. Ever heard of it? It's OK when we do it.

Cristen: She didn't mean to, you know, end up in his hospital room posing as his girlfriend. It was a mix up because of his kooky family. I watched that movie, like my middle school best friend was obsessed with that movie, saw it dozens of times. Any time we would have a sleepover, that is what we would watch. And in retrospect, like you, Caroline, watching Sleepless now it is it is wild. I, I wish my parents had been my parents were so hyper evangelical, didn't want us to see like any sex or anything and because there's no fucking in While You Were Sleeping and that was fine. But they were not concerned about the you know, the actual, the actual story being told.

Lindy: That is so funny. But it's fine because she's kind of bumbling, you know, so it's just harmless.

Caroline: She's pretty. And she's bumbling.

Lindy: She's she's Sandy B. I'm sure it was an accident. She just tripped and fell into the hospital room. Oh, I know. It's I know. And I was like, absolutely. Until you said Sleepless in Seattle and you said gender swap. And then you said Bill Pullman. I was like had full blinders on. I was like, while you were sleeping is perfect. Don't ever say anything to me about it. No one can talk to me. But now I see that I was wrong.

Caroline: This is a safe space to to have these realizations.

Lindy: Thank you.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break

Cristen: When we come back, we’re talking with Lindy about one rom-com in particular, the much beloved — and much hated — Love Actually.

Caroline: Don’t go anywhere.

[Stinger]

Cristen: We’re back and before we get into Love Actually with Lindy West, Caroline, I’ve got a little guessing game for you that I’m calling Runaway Box Office

Caroline: Is the answer Julia Roberts?

Cristen: Yes and no. So this is coming from Entertainment Weekly’s 2019 list of the 15 Highest Grossing Rom Coms of All Time. J Robs IS on there twice for Runaway Bride at number 9 and Pretty Woman at number four. So question number 1, Caroline: Can you guess what rom com comes in at number three?

Caroline: Oh my god all right, highest grossing.

Cristen: Pretty Woman is number 4.

Caroline: OK um

Cristen: And it’s not Julia Roberts.

Caroline: Is it When Harry Met Sally?

Cristen: [buzzer sound]

Caroline: No!

Cristen: Do you want one more guess?

Caroline: No, just tell me!

Cristen: It’s a little 2005 film starring Will Smith: Hitch.

Caroline: Hitch is number 3?

Cristen: Yes!

Caroline: Who even watched Hitch?

Cristen: A lot of people! People love Hitch! It’s also got Eva Mendez

Caroline: Do I just dislike Kevin James that much? I think I just dislike Kevin James that much.

Cristen: Yeah. Kevin James does not matter in Hitch. It’s all about Will Smith.

Caroline: Oh OK

Cristen: I might need to take you to the Red Table and we can talk about that more

Caroline: I understand that reference

Cristen: [laughs] OK. Runaway Box Office question two. And remember Caro, we’re talking about the 15 Highest Grossing Rom Coms of All Time. So the oldest movie on the list is Coming to America, which came out in 1988. The most recent rom com came out in 2018 and is already at number six. Name that rom com, Caroline!

Caroline: Ooh! Ooh Ooh! Is it Crazy Rich Asians?

Cristen: Ding ding ding ding ding!

Caroline: Yes!

Cristen: I was so impressed! Like I knew that it had beaten a bunch of records, but already at number 6? Fuck yes!

Caroline: Yeah, no I mean that movie was everywhere. That was a huge fucking blockbuster. Which is impressive for a romcom. I mean it really - it was a breakout hit, Cristen.

Cristen: It was a breakout hit on so many levels. And I hope my husband is not listening to this when I say that Henry Golding - take me

Caroline: Ah yeah - Calgon take me away

Cristen: hoo OK, let’s move on to the last question, I’ve gotta spritz myself down. All right. What is the highest-grossing rom-com of all time?

Caroline: Fuck

Cristen: At least according to this list

Caroline: OK OK hang on, let me work through this. All right. So When Harry Met Sally was not number 3.

Cristen: Correct

Caroline: And you know what, I don’t - like I love it and I think it’s a huge cultural touchstone but I also don’t think it’s the highest grossing of all time. OK. OK. Let me think of some popular ones. We’ve already - Crazy Rich Asians, we’ve already talked about that. Moonstruck, one of my favorites but definitely didn’t make it to number one in terms of highest grossing. Was it There’s Something About Mary?

Cristen: No.

Caroline: No! What!

Cristen: It was not Something About Mary. This answer shocked me, Caroline. I am still reeling from this

Caroline: OK

Cristen: The number one highest grossing rom com of all time at least according to Entertainment Weekly, and I do believe it, get ready y’all, because it’s My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

Caroline: Oh. … huh.

Cristen and Caroline: [laughter]

Cristen: And with that, thank you for playing Runaway Box Office

[GAME SHOW MUX]

Cristen: …And now, Caroline, it's time to talk to Lindy West about one of YOUR least favorite rom coms of all time...

Caroline: Yes, so quick backstory. Early in Lindy's career, she was a writer for Jezebel. And Cristen and I were both big Jezebelheads back then. Lindy’s pieces were unmistakable -- her voice was unapologetically feminist, savagely funny and usually just OVER IT in ALL CAPS.

Cristen: One of Lindy’s specialties were her rewatch posts. Like, “I Re-Watched Reality Bites and It's Basically a Manual for Shitheads,” and “I Re-Watched Forrest Gump So No One Else Ever Has To.”

Caroline: And then there is the infamous 2013 essay titled “I rewatched Love, Actually and Am Here to Ruin It for All of You.” And y'all, as someone who hates — hates! — Love Actually, I felt SO validated reading that — I mean, that movie SHOULD be ruined!

Cristen: Hot takes Caroline! That was probably one of the most polarizing essays Lindy has ever written -- really!! She still gets emails every now and then from people who are like, how DARE you hate Love, Actually. And the funny thing is, the first time she saw it, it didn’t bother her at all.

Lindy: I remember feeling like it's fine, you know, like I saw it when it came out. I probably saw it one other time in my 20s. And it's like cute. And the people in it are cute and they kiss, and that's nice. You know, I feel like that was my criteria as like a 22-year-old or whatever. Do they kiss? Great. Ten out of ten.

Caroline: Then, in late 2013, Lindy’s editor was like, hey, the Love Actually 10th anniversary is coming up. You should do a rewatch.

Lindy: First of all it's way easier and more fun to be mean about something than to be thoughtful and nice about it. So I did absolutely go into it with a sourpuss attitude and maybe that's unjust, but I don't think I'm wrong. I think it is pretty atrocious.

Caroline: You're not wrong.

Lindy: Thanks. Thank you. You know, what I discovered when I rewatched it was, there's just this like sort of gnawing, cavernous lack of substance at the heart of it, you know, like it's just like what is this? The whole point of it is just like, yeah, we got 25 movie stars. We put them in sweaters, and then we made them kiss. And we absolutely crammed a million problematic shitty gender dynamics in every single relationship. And I would love for someone to do some kind of calculation about how many minutes of the film women get to talk and how many minutes men get to talk, so curious. It's like a very male centric movie. Absolutely, aggressively marketed to women. Like, this is your thing. This is your movie. This your movie. You love it. You love it. You love it. You love it. And it's like that kind of coercion that I think makes me the most angry. And I don't like being sort of expected to love a thing that was manufactured in a lab to make you love it, you know.

Cristen: You write in that essay that basically the the morality tale of Love Actually is quote, “The less the woman talks, the more lovable she is.” So could you maybe for listeners who either haven't seen it or it's been a minute, do you remember any certain examples of that?

Lindy: There's like 10 different storylines, but I feel like people really love the Colin Firth storyline where he's like a novelist or something. And then he his brother steals his wife. because that's not something you can do with a human being. And so then he has to go to France to type his novel on a typewriter and the old woman of the village brings him a young woman and is like, here she's your maid now

CLIP - Colin Firth

Village woman: Oh I found you a perfect lady to clean the house. This is Aurelia.

Jamie: Bonjour Aurelia.

Aurelia: Bonjour.

Lindy: And she only speaks Portuguese. And then they can't communicate and they just are in a house together for, I don't know, a couple weeks. And then he's like, we're in love. I love her. It's like you you can't even talk to each other. What are you talking about?

Cristen: You reference. You also reference. I am currently in the middle of a 90 Day Fiancée k hole I can't climb out of and you compare the relationship to 90 Day Fiancé and I was like that is so spot on like

Caroline: it's true.

Lindy: Except the relationships on 90 Day Fiancée have a more valid foundation.

Cristen: And translator apps, at least.

Lindy: Yeah. I believe in those people more than Firth and Aurelia and I don't know. I think it's really well, I've certainly felt this in my life as like a teenage girl, especially, this idea that, like, the thing that makes you lovable is to just sort of hang around and be pretty. It's like I feel like that was really bad for me to internalize, you know, because it was not something I was ever going to accomplish, first of all, like at least in terms of of Western beauty standards or like mainstream beauty standards. I wasn't going to be I wasn't like anyone's hot Portuguese nurse or whatever, I was like a chunky high school kid with stovepipe jeans. So, like, I feel like it's bad. It's bad to reinforce that as romance. Like, a completely like one-sided infatuation with a person who, you know Colin Firth can just absolutely project whatever personality he wants onto her. And then, OK, so that's that one. And then the woman who talks the most arguably is Emma Thompson who is married in the movie to Alan Rickman, and then he dumps her for his secretary, who also never says anything. She just sort of slithers around like us being a sexy snake in a red sweater. And anyway, he dumps Emma Thompson for a younger woman and he buys her an ugly necklace or a bracelet or something. And I understand that the movie probably thinks that it's doing a commentary on women aging out and turning into garbage, you know, but it's not really because she just ends up alone, which is fine. I’m honestly pro-alone in the especially in the context of the world of Love, Actually, But it truly feels like she has the most personality and is the most harshly punished for it. And then there's Hugh Grant and Natalie. People love that one.

Caroline: I was just going to say, the Hugh Grant, Natalie plotline is like a strange science fiction mystery that floats through this film because everybody seems convinced about Natalie being this unfit woman in so many different ways, and you refer to it as Natalie dysmorphic disorder.

Lindy: Yeah, everyone's constantly like, Oh. Look at that hog.

CLIP - Hugh Grant

David: You know Natalie who works here.

Staffer: The chubby girl?

David: Would we call her chubby?

Staffer: I think there’s a pretty sizeable ass there, yes sir. Huge thighs.

Lindy: She is like a very beautiful movie star is actually literally what she is. She's not even chunky at all. But, I mean, I don't know. It's very strange. I mean, I guess that's what Hollywood thinks of as fat, she's maybe maybe a size eight, I don't know, just a real, real chunky monster, you know? I mean, who else was supposed to be fat like I mean even like Bridget Jones, not fat, just regular, just regular human woman. And we finally started it. We kind of shook that shaken that loose. You know, that idea that anyone over a size four is a walrus. I mean, it just ruins people's lives.

Cristen: Especially like in both of those in both Bridget Jones and in the case of Natalie and Hugh Grant, like the fact that the men are attracted to them is only just beneficial to the men for the audience, like it's supposed to be like, oh, like we love Colin Firth so much because he actually loves her. And like Hugh Grant the stuttering man, like, how good of him. Like, it's like the women are like constantly even your body size is ultimately just serving the men.

Lindy: Right. It's like it's like, oh my God, he's so brave.

Cristen: Yeah.

Lindy: Wow. He's a good guy. And I don't know. I just feel like you're totally right. You know, treating like a relationship between an average looking man and a slightly fat woman as this like incredible, inspiring gift that you know, it's supposed to supposed to send fat girls out into the world with a spring in our step, it's like just so condescending. It's also just not real. Like all kinds of people have relationships with all kinds of people. And also, as previously stated, Natalie's not even fat. If she - she is not invited to my fat-girl clothing swap, nothing would fit her. She's fine. She's doing fine.

Caroline: So, what has your response been to people having such a strong reaction to the essay?

Lindy: It's again, life is complicated because I do also agree with the people that want me to lighten up and have fun, because I do think that it is kind of a crutch to just hate things, you know, and I don't want to be that kind of a writer. I don't know, I think it does kind of there's something there is something kind of poisonous about just hating everything, you know, and also now that I've made a TV show, I'm like, oh, wow, it's really it's really hard to make stuff, people worked really hard on that. Maybe I should chill a little bit. So I try.

Cristen: We’re going to chill a little bit, too, with a quick break.

Caroline: When we come back, we talk to Lindy about how to enjoy problematic film faves responsibly

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere.

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with New York Times best-selling author and feminist firebrand, Lindy West.

Cristen: So you wrote Shit Actually during a year of cultural reckoning. What was it like revisiting these films during a time when a lot of us are grappling with our problematic faves?

Lindy: Yeah, that's a lot of what the book is, is like grappling with problematic faves. Can we still enjoy these things? What do they mean now? Like if we've identified that certain people involved are bad or have done bad things, abused their power, abused people, you know, that is essentially what I'm doing. So it felt important, but also like a big responsibility, like in the moment when everyone's looking for kind of guidance on that and how to navigate that, I don't know, you know, like and if you scratch the surface of anything that's been made ever, you're going to find exploitation and abuse of power. But I think the answer is to just mercilessly make fun of people. I guess for me, for me, just be very mean to the people that are bad. And you can't live a pure life, you know, you have to like navigate it with some degree of of of error. And the answer for me is just sort of like a gut check, like does this piece of media make me feel sick to to watch it, to support it, to give it my money, you know, the answer is to pay attention to who's making what and how they treat other people. And then, you know, follow your gut.

Cristen: The disavowal is - the thing I get stuck on is just like, well all right, I won't consume this piece of pop culture again, but then what like what what what difference is that making? I don't know.

Lindy: Yeah, I mean, I wrote about it a little bit in the Rush Hour chapter in the book, because I got halfway through writing it and then I was like, wait a minute, did Brett Ratner have a MeToo. What was it? And then I looked it up and I was like, oh, it's not a good one at all. This bad. Oops. So then I had to devote a large section of the chapter to talking about, OK, so if you want to watch Rush Hour, but you don't want any of your money to go to Brett Ratner, what do you do? Um Because, you know, lots of other people worked on Rush Hour who didn't have multiple sexual assault allegations or whatever his thing was.. Yeah I mean, again, it's like I don't want us all to let ourselves off the hook, because I do think that this reckoning is really important. And I think it has a lot of value.. But I also think that life's really complicated. And I think that, you know, there are. There are are. People who have emotional attachments to things where like maybe that's a thing that they need to get through their life, through the pain of their life, and maybe there are marginalized person who's been harmed in the way that that creator harmed people. You know, like it's life is just really, really complicated and three dimensional. And I also think it's possible that I'm way off base about this, because I do think that those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s, and I'm sure before even more intensely, have some degree of like Stockholm syndrome, like I feel like my whole my whole life was just me watching movies and TV shows with, like, one girl in them and the girl sucked you know or like didn't get to do anything, was just like, again, sexually harassed and stuck in the garage. And as a girl growing up, watching media, that really didn't represent me at all, you have to learn to look at it and find things that you do relate to. You know, you have to just kind of make the best of it. And I feel like a lot of people are really used to just making the best of things and setting aside your kind of full humanity and being like, well, but I do think but I do like this part of it, you know?

Cristen: I do feel like that like the 90s really also just well, fuck, it goes way before the 90s, but the 80s and 90s also felt like a particular era of like the workplace rom com, just like the the workplace romantic dynamics of so many. I mean, Love Actually is a hot mess of it. I also often fall asleep to Frasier and that is truly just just a show about sexual harassment in the workplace. But like, I don't know, I mean, even thinking about, like Broadcast News, like, to so many, so many charged romantic workplaces that I wish I hadn't maybe internalized in my formative years.

Lindy: Right. Like, did that have an impact on how and how long we went before we started kind of cleaning out some of this abuse of power in the workplace that we're dealing with like systemic in so many different industries? It's like, well, yeah, we were all like I we watched a million movies where, like, you fall in love with your boss even though it's so wrong or whatever. How are you supposed to actually navigate being sexually harassed by your boss? I mean, not that people are that simple, like, “well, I saw it in movies, so it's good.” But I don't know. I mean, I do think that. Because of flaws in our social systems, we romanticize toxic relationships in a million different ways. And I am struggling to think of one that does a good job.

Cristen: Do Hallmark romantic, quote unquote, movies, do they even qualify as rom coms?

Lindy: No, absolutely not. if we take as the foundational criteria of a rom com that it has to have rom and com, Hallmark movies fail on both counts. They have neither rom nor com. I mean, many of them have no kissing whatsoever. Merely the implication of kissing. The jokes are nonexistent to the point of being they suck other jokes out of the air.

Cristen: They also usually require musical cues. I've noticed that the jokes usually require like a “womp de womp womp” little like signal to the audience what's going on.

Caroline: Well and also just hordes of women returning to farms, and airports being closed. God..

Lindy: You know, always a busy corporate woman returns from the big city to her home village for the Christmas festival and learns that she was wrong about having ambition. And what she should do is decorate the big Christmas tree.

Cristen: And definitely get back with her high school boyfriend.

Lindy: Thousand percent.

Cristen: Who is now a widower, so, he’s OK.

Lindy: It's fine. He didn't get a divorce. Don't worry. And yeah, all that said, I love them. I love them all. They're absolutely incredible, fascinating pieces of human achievement. Like I there's so many. And I - and the non-holiday Hallmark movies are also good. I recently watched one called You're Bacon Me Crazy, which.

Caroline: Ooh! Twist! Twist.

CLIP: Bacon Me Crazy Trailer

Lindy: Yeah. On trend. And it's about two rival food trucks, and one of them is bacon themed, and it's owned by a hot guy. And the other one, I forget what it is, but she is

Caroline: Probably salads and yogurt

Lindy: Probably exactly. She's a lady. And then you think that maybe there's going to be like a plot where the bacon truck puts her truck out of business? No, nope. They're just parked near each other and then like, there's no tension at all. There's no conflict. I mean, and it's just like watching something from a parallel universe. Like it's like what? Why was this made? And they were right to do it because I love it and I thank them.

Caroline: You can check out Lindy’s book Shit, Actually wherever books are sold. Plus, all her old rewatch essays are still on Jezebel, so look those up too!

Cristen: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Production help from Camila Salazar. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week, we’re talking big ol’ boobs and body image with comedian Michelle Buteau.

Michelle: You know, I think my special I really want ass wiping money. Like, I just want someone to wipe my ass if anything happens to me. And that is true. But I also would love someone to just carry my tits around because lord knows I'm done. You know what I mean? Like I used to name them like Muffie and Buffy, but now, like, I'm just going to call them like misogyny and like patriarchy.

Cristen: You don’t want to miss this episode — or any episode this season!! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get Unladylike.