Transcript | Ep. 156: How to Move On
COLD OPEN
Cristen: Hey y'all and welcome to Unladylike, I'm Caroline.
Caroline: Are you?
Cristen: Oh my God.
Caroline: Finally, she did it too. Caroline [00:03:04] I have looked you dead in the eyes before and said, I'm Cristen.
INTRO
Cristen: Hey y'all and welcome to Unladylike, I'm Cristen.
Caroline: I'm Caroline.
Cristen: Caroline, I am holding in my hands a chilled bottle of champagne. Scharffenberger brand champagne that you and I have had since 2018 because this is the bottle of champagne that our network, Stitcher, sent us to congratulate us on the launch of Unladylike.
Caroline: Yeah, yeah, we're finally opening it. We're finally popping that bottle.
Cristen: We never drank it.
Caroline: No. And I mean, part of that has to do with the fact that, like, you know, when you're recording and trying to be on your toes,
Cristen: Yeah
Caroline: You don't want to also be drunk. I know I don't speak for all podcasters.
Cristen: Well, and also, I still remember when this bottle, this gift came in the mail for us, and it was so thoughtful and nice. But the first thing I thought was like, Oh my God, I don't have time to drink champagne. We are just going to put this in the studio. Now, we have a few reasons we are popping this champagne today, but the first reason is because Caroline you closed on a house yesterday
Caroline: I did. Yes.
Cristen: You are a homeowner.
Caroline: Jesus. Wow. Yeah.
Cristen: How does it feel?
Caroline: Wild. Do you know the feeling where you've like, passed through stress and anxiety and you're just like floating around in space in like, I don't know how I feel. I've been stressed for so long.
Cristen: Yeah. Yeah.
Caroline: I'm there. I think I also had too much melatonin last night, so I'm feeling - it's a little shocking and I'm in a little bit of disbelief
Cristen: right But let's let's go ahead and pop this bottle. I have no idea how it's going to taste.
Caroline: Well, it's from the the fine Schaffenburger
Cristen: The Schaffenburger Vineyard.
Caroline: Vineyard.
Cristen: And I'm holding it close to the mike trying to get a little asmr action, you know, so we know a little. Crinkles go,
Cristen: Honestly, my my champagne opening etiquette. All of it, I learned from the Bravo reality show below deck.
Caroline: Oh!
Cristen: So, by that, I mean, I've probably learned nothing.
Caroline: At least I'm wearing glasses today.
Cristen: Yeah, I'm going to try to actually pop it. I also have a dog in my lap. Intern Brewster's in my lap. This could be a disaster. Oh, oh, oh, here we go. It worked.
Caroline: It did you got a nice that was a great I hope the mic picked up the sound of it ricocheting off your ceiling.
Cristen: No one lost an eye. OK!
Cristen and Caroline: Cheers!
Caroline: Yeah, tastes like champagne.
Cristen: Yeah, not bad.
Caroline: All right Shafenburger
Cristen: Schafenburger, its shelf life holds.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: The second reason to pop this bottle of champagne is that you have an announcement to make.
Caroline: I do. Sometimes when two podcasters love each other very much. They become work wives. And sometimes even though they still love each other very much, they go in different directions. Y'all. I'm leaving Unladylike.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: Yeah. I will still be very geographically close to Cristen, emotionally close to Cristen. I just won't be in business with Cristen.
Cristen: Yeah, we are consciously uncoupling.
Caroline: We are.
Cristen: As work wives. We've been podcasting together for over 10 years now. And we have been official work wives, business partners for what, since January 2017.
Caroline: Mhm. Five years.
Cristen: Five years. Oh my god. And because rule of threes, there is a third reason we are popping the champagne, which again gifted to us by Stitcher. Unladylike is not as consciously uncoupling from our network. Stitcher / Sirius XM chose to part ways with Unladylike.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: Because of all this, there will be a brief hiatus in the Unladylike main feed. But y'all, I fully plan to continue the show once all of that is ironed out. And also in the meantime, Patreon is going to keep on going. So.
Caroline: Hell yeah.
Cristen: If you want to keep Unladylike in your ears and join me on the next phase of this journey, head over to Patreon.com/unladylike media and your support is I'm going to go ahead and say crucial. Crucial. It's crucial, y'all. And since this is obviously a lot of news for Unladies to take in, we are gonna start the episode by catching everyone up on what’s happening and why, and later, we are going to take a little trip down podcasting memory lane to take stock of everything that Caroline and I have done together over the past decade.
Caroline: Everything.
Cristen:. And also just be transparent with our wonderful Unladies about everything going on.
Caroline: Yeah, y'all have trusted us with your stories, and now we're trusting y'all with ours.
[MIDROLL]
Cristen: All right, Caroline. What do you want Unladies to know about this decision? Like, tell everyone what's going on.
Caroline: Yeah, so as far as professionally, Cristen is spot on that this is a conscious uncoupling. We have been in communication. I didn't tell her yesterday that I am leaving.
Cristen: And if you had, we wouldn't be recording this episode.
Caroline: Probably not, we would not have had time to prepare. Caroline [00:18:30] The champagne would not have had time to chill. Caroline [00:19:17] And then as far as what I want listeners to know, like, personally about this decision was just that it it felt like the right time in my life.
Cristen: Can you elaborate on that?
Caroline: Yeah. I had been doing a lot of thinking about my future, basically. This line of thinking started back when I was living with roommates. My life felt pretty chaotic. And when I looked down the line at what I wanted, personally, it felt like I needed a lot more stability and yeah, a lot of stability is is definitely code for money, for sure. I wanted to be more financially secure. And I think I was ready also, though, like in a non- from a non-financial standpoint. I felt ready to put a focus on things that were more personal, so like professional growth, financial growth, changes there, but also I felt ready in, and I do feel ready to have a job that is. I don't know, like less tied in with my life.
Cristen: Mm-Hmm.
Caroline: You know? Um.
Cristen: Well, that reminds me of one of the pivotal conversations that we had in 2021, I still I still remember because it was it was the same week as the the Capitol insurrection. I had COVID. You were in a really tough place and everything. The world was just like spinning out of control as it still feels like it is. And you and I were having a kind of a look ahead meeting as business partners because that's the thing. Yes, we host this podcast, but this podcast has also been our attempted livelihood for the past five years, and that has not been easy, and it has gotten increasingly harder, to be completely honest with y'all. And the question that I asked you was, “Do you want to run a business or do you do you want to work for a business?” And in the conversations that followed and what you communicated back to me, that was a turning point question for you.
Caroline: Yeah. I mean, I think that that put. That put words to sort of the nebulous thoughts that I was having in terms of like, what do you want for your life, for your work life for your personal life? And I like distinctly remember the moment when it became clear. I was sitting on my front porch at my apartment at the time and. I. Was just still not in a great mental space. And for a lot of reasons, many of them personal. And I just. I realized, like, no, I think going forward, I think that that's exactly it, is that I want to. Not that I'm so desperate to work for someone else, you know? But just the idea of I am I am ready to like, clock in, clock out, go out into my garden.
Cristen: You want your life back.
Caroline: Yeah. You know, I got I really got used to when you and I started working together having like two jobs. Because when I started podcasting with Cristen, I think a lot of y'all know I was a contractor for HowStuffWorks, which is now iHeartPodcasts. And I had to have a day job as well. And so like. There is a certain sense of like, I don't know who I am, like who am I when I'm not working? And like, do I have hobbies?
Cristen: And just to be clear, that contract phase and HowStuffWorks, that's pre Unladylike.
Caroline: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This that was that was many, many years ago. And so I think there was something about like getting used to hiding in work for me personally. I have reached a point where. I would like to know myself more, I think.
Cristen: Yeah, I was going to ask if you feel comfortable sharing, what do you feel like you were hiding from?
Caroline: Hiding from I don't know, like having to flesh out my own personality.
Cristen: Oh.
Caroline: No, and I don't mean that to be I don't mean that to be self. I don't think I don't have a personality or whatever. But it - I'm also just so we're clear, not blaming any of this on Unladylike the business or Cristen Conger, the person. This is purely like how I operate, how I have operated like professionally. I have a tendency to like overwork, find excuses to not do things, to not see people, to not go places. And then when I'm done with work instead of being like, I don't know, find something enriching that makes you feel healthy and happy. I'm like, Well, I guess I'll just like, make dinner and sit on the couch and go to bed and rinse and repeat. And I'm not saying that like a nine to five is the solution to that, but I am saying that as part of my desire to like, figure out who I am when I'm not part of Unladylike, et cetera. I don't know. I wanted to free up some some brain space.
Cristen: Yeah. I also feel you very much in terms of like we have been C&C, a unit for a really long time. And I think that it's as much of an important team that's been and duo that's been just speaking for myself, both personally and professionally. It also feels like the right time for us to transition ahead as Cristen, period and Caroline, period. You know what I mean?
Caroline: Mhm. Yeah.
Cristen: And I think that at least for myself and at least what I've been telling my therapist, the the changes ahead that that I want for myself and for my work. I think it's necessary for me to. To also confront the things that maybe I'd been hiding from to some extent by having a partner that makes sense rather than. Just putting myself 100 percent fully out there, and it's just me.
Caroline: Yeah, how does how does that feel?
Cristen: It's scary. I mean, it's really fucking scary, partly because it's totally uncertain. And this feels like the next phase of confronting my vulnerabilities and fears of failure and fear of rejection in a deeper way, because it's. It will be just me. And I say that, you know, just in terms of like the podcast, like it's not not that I was sitting here being like, well, Caroline, blah blah blah. Does any of this make sense?
Caroline: Yeah.
Caroline: But I'm curious, though, how it feels. So I know I I'm very familiar with financial anxiety. And you and I have talked a little bit about the anxiety, business wise of moving forward after I leave, but I'm very curious how you're feeling creatively. As you're like looking down the barrel of going it alone. How do you how do you feel about the things that you have created, will create, like doing that just like as Unladylike Media?
Cristen: Well, I have asked and keep asking people in my life whom I trust, whether I am crazy to not be following your lead and looking for a nine to five. Because. The business side, the financial side of podcasting is y'all it is, just it is a totally different landscape than it was five years ago when we started unladylike and certainly fuck, I started podcasting in 2009, and people just thought I was a blogger, really didn't understand what a podcast was. So things have just the landscape just changed dramatically, and I ultimately like the thing that is in my my heart is to make shit that matters to people and make the kind of stuff that. In the ways that we hear back from unladies of the time and that keeps me going, make the things that help people feel less alone, help explain a little bit why things are the way they are. And obviously, all of that through the lens of gender, because that's that's my bag. Oh, and as far as how I'm feeling creatively, I mean, if I if I could separate the I feel like the creative feelings are much different than like my practical brain because my practical brain is like, Oh my God, but where is the money going to come from? How are you going to pay like your mortgage, etc.? But my creative brain, when it forgets about that, that side of things is really excited because there are there's so much that I still there's so much and I still want to make and things that I have been maybe scared to make, and it's like, well. All the chips are being pushed in the middle of the table. So let's find out.
Caroline: Yeah, I know that your creativity is is just incredible, you're one of the most talented people I have ever met. And so, money concerns aside, if if we are talking about creativity, you know, I know you will do incredible things.
Cristen: Thank you. Well, l also want to know from you Caroline. Looking ahead, are you going to be podcasting?
Caroline: No.
Cristen: Are you going to be doing anything in audio?
Caroline: No, I highly doubt it. If I do, it will be very personal. So in terms of taking equipment and going to family members, you know, it would not be a thing that I would like create to sell basically.
Caroline: And I also, I, you know, like it's part of like what I said about who am I like, I need to get to know myself again. Part of that is also like, what would I? Would I create anything if I were just alone? Like, literally and figuratively, just like if I didn't have anyone expecting anything, can I create something, you know, and that goes for writing, that goes for audio, whatever, like, but no, short story long. I don't have any like audio aspirations. I I would like to just be able to at least put pen to paper personally again for myself for the first time in a really long time.
Cristen: One last question for you, Caroline, before we head to a break. What is next for you professionally?
Caroline: Um, TBD. Freelancing for the time being. But in terms of like looking at the type of nine to five landscape that I'm investigating, so like communications, marketing, senior writer, things like that. Those are the types of jobs that I am looking at, and I'm sort of freelancing to fill in some resume gaps in order to to get there. Caroline [00:40:09] Short story long. Yeah. I'm looking for something in the communications sphere where I can get back to some nine to five word nerdery and. You know, have someone give me benefits and a 401K.
Cristen: well, we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we are going to rewind back to the very beginning of our podcasting story together.
[MIDROLL]
Cristen: We're back. And Caroline, we wanted to look back on our decade plus of podcasting together. So let's start at the very beginning.
[CLIP]
Cristen Hello and welcome to the podcast, I'm Cristen.
Caroline And I'm Caroline.
Cristen And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You. Caroline.
Caroline Thank you.
Cristen This is the official first episode featuring the new co-host. As many of you listeners probably know, Molly has decided to pursue more writing with HowStuffWorks.com And that opened up a seat at the podcasting table, and I am so excited to have Caroline, another inquisitive, well-spoken, funny lady, to speak with me.
Caroline Wow. Thanks, Cristen.
Cristen You're welcome.
Caroline Good to be here. Yeah, you and I go way back actually …
Cristen: We do
Caroline: Babies. Yeah, that was our first ever recorded C&C podcast factory session of Stuff Mom Never Told You back in 2011
Cristen: 2011. I sound like I'm 12.
Caroline: Yeah, I love it.
Cristen: I sound so polite.
Caroline: Oh, and I am an inquisitive, well-spoken, funny lady.
Cristen: I know. I really hope that you’ve put that on your resume.
Caroline: Yeah
Cristen: As the like about me.
Caroline: Well now I will. And it's funny to listen back to your combined intro of me and explanation of your previous co-host leaving, because this would cue, like two solid years of people emailing us to ask where Molly had gone.
Cristen: Right? And this will probably cue two solid years of people asking me where Caroline has gone.
Caroline: Just do my voice. I know you can do it.
Cristen: Well, and fortunately, fortunately, I will have this episode, that I will - I can just set up an auto reply with the link to this episode. But that is wild to think about that episode, though our very first podcast episode together was on Stuff Mom Never Told You, which I co-created and launched with HowStuffWorks, which is now iHeartPodcasts. Back in 2009, our first episode together in 2011 was on rebounds because I'm pretty sure you and I were both single.
Caroline: Yeah.
Cristen: Maybe doing a little rebounding.
Caroline: Yeah, fun
Cristen: And you and I continued co-hosting Stuff Mom Never Told You until. Well, and you and I continued hosting stuff mom never told you through the end of 2016.
Caroline: Yeah, yeah, basically the election happened. You and I recorded like a tearful response to it.
Cristen: Oh my god, yeah
Caroline: we wrapped up Stuff Mom Never Told You.
Cristen: Well, we passed the mic along. Stuff Mom Never Told You is still very much alive and well.
Caroline: Yeah, we wrapped up our time on Stuff Mom Never Told You, and they've gone through some co-hosting changes and now are hosted by our dear friends, Anney and Samantha. Yes. So it feels like it's still in the family.
Cristen: Yeah, we love Anney and Samantha. But Caroline, we gotta talk about C&C. Let’s take a moment, rewind back to when we started working together. What was going on in your life at the time?
Caroline: Oh man. Well, I was looking for meaningful work, I can tell ya that much. I had left a newspaper job, I was working at a nonprofit. You and I reconnected, which was amazing, and while I was working at that nonprofit you reached out and asked if I wanted to basically slide into the cohost seat with you at Stuff Mom Never Told You and I was so excited cause basically it just meant being able to talk to my friend, all the time, and like getting paid for it. And I was a contractor at the time for How Stuff Works, I ended up after that like getting a second day job. And it really just got to the point where I still wanted that meaningful work but I really wanted that meaningful work to be working with you at Stuff Mom Never Told You and HowStuffWorks full time. So, basically one day I emailed your boss at HowStuffWorks and I basically said, “Hi, so you’re gonna hire me full time.” And he was surprised to learn that he was. And I laid out the terms and the timeline. And fast forward, in October of 2014, I came on board full time with you at HowStuffWorks and was able to become a full time podcaster on the condition that I also was an editor for the educational website side of things.
Cristen: Yeah, yeah.
Caroline: So again, like, keep it you know, keeping my thing of having two jobs. That's just that's how I operated for many, many years.
Cristen: I still distinctly remember I was in the farmers market, probably bagging up some kale when you texted me to tell me, like, Hey, I just informed, you know, the boss that he will be hiring me full time. Love that memory.
Caroline: So, yeah, I mean, some people might call that pushy. I call it assertive and past its time.
Cristen: I would call that unladylike.
Caroline: Yeah, but where like, where were you? I mean, I know literally like you were at HowStuffWorks podcasting and writing. But like, where were you professionally at that time? Like, emotionally like, how are you feeling about your job at the time?
Cristen: So at the time, I was in my mid 20s and
Caroline: Oh my god were we ever so young
Cristen: I know and personally I was. I was a hot mess in a lot of different ways, and professionally I was bound and determined to make Stuff Mom Never Told You, you matter to the the powers that that were at the time. So basically, like our bosses, you know, trying to to constantly convince people that, yes, talking about women and gender, this is not a niche thing. And there is value in these conversations. And please, for the love of God, pay me as much as the men at this workplace — y'all that never happened. Side note. And I was I became. A squeaky wheel that I needed to be. I definitely became much more assertive. The longer I stayed on there.
Caroline: I know, and that included wearing high heels to intimidate the boss. He was so easily intimidated.
Cristen: I did. Y'all, if I wore heels, I would be significantly taller than our boss at the time. And you know, it at least made me feel more powerful.
Caroline: I love a good power play.
Cristen: Even though again, see also: wage gap. So, yeah. Overall, I would I would say that that whole, that whole period of time, I was with that company for upwards of eight years, it was it was my feminist awakening and I. I really had to fight tooth and nail for myself and for. Well, what my what my values were and what I thought mattered for the first time. And I’m really grateful that I had the place to be able to do that. And in 2016 I finally reached a point where I’d fully realized the scope of what the limitations were in that job at the time and also just being just being tired of being kind of taken for granted in a lot of ways, especially monetarily. So in October of 2016, it was my I like, officially left the job, but finished out the year podcasting Stuff Mom Never Told You with you and then 2017 it was off to the races to start unladylike, which meant us launching a new podcast which took much longer than we expected and also writing a book, our book, which was much harder than expected and it was and I got married all during that time. Like 2016, everything, everything happened. So it it's it's been a it's been an era.
Caroline: Well, you talked about your feminist awakening. I mean, I am really curious because my answer is like, “oh my god a lot!” But I am curious how has podcasting through SMNTY and Unladylike changed you?
Cristen: It’s allowed me to find my voice. More importantly, though, and it is the thing that I come back to again and again when I am feeling anxious and frustrated and hopeless. It's hearing back from the audience and listeners who have taken the time to share their stories and their experiences and insights and secrets with us over the years. That is. Honestly, more than being on the mic, that is probably the thing that's changed me the most. because It's cultivated empathy and broadened my understanding of the world and it’s. And also given me. It’s just radically changed my perspective because you and I are research nerds, it’s one thing to read studies, and it’s another to actually hear from a person wildly removed from your day to day life and and step into their shoes
Caroline: for, oh yeah. Yeah, I feel the same. If I - so somebody on Twitter, this was a couple of months ago posted something where they basically said, if you hadn't taken the career path that you've taken, like, who would you be? How would you be different? What would you be doing? My answer was a glib like, I'd probably be an alcoholic copy editor, just miserable. You know, in a newsroom, I might never have left. I whatever. But like the the deeper answer is I would have probably. I’m not projecting this onto anyone else. This is purely personal. I think I would be a worse person. I think I would be less empathetic. I think podcasting with you, with the communities that we've built. Reading what we've read, talking to whom. Whomst we've talked to. It has made me and kept me more curious.
Cristen: Yeah.
Caroline: More empathetic. More aware of injustices, the ways that people are marginalized and especially the fact that I don't know everything, and I would be foolish to try to, you know, be some loudmouth expert, the way that just, you know, so many people are online or whatever. It keeps me. I don't know, yeah, I think the curiosity, the feminism, but the curiosity, I think, has been the most valuable part, the curiosity and empathy.
Cristen: How has your definition of dream job changed in the past five years?
Caroline: For me. I don't think that there's any such thing. I I know that that one can have a job where like everything goes so well, you know, you're making a lot of money, you have great benefits, you like your coworkers, you know, like you like your actual work and that that sounds like a dream. But something that I have also started to realize, as I've gotten older is like for me personally again, caveat like for me personally, there is no such thing as a dream job. There's always going to be some sort of like hitch, and a dream job for me would be. This this is as close to a dream job as I think I could get. But it's not fully, right, because I don't feel like I can fully support myself. And so the dream is everything we just talked about in terms of like the impact we've had, but also the impact that has been made on us by our audience and like getting to research and talk to you for a living, like fuckin yeah. Getting to be a feminist and say fuck into the microphone and, you know. That is a dream. But again, short story long. I have changed in terms of believing that there really is such a thing as a dream job and just thinking that there there are jobs that you can enjoy parts of or like better than others or support you better than not or whatever, but. Dream job I have. I now feel more about the word dream job like I do about “soulmate.” Like, I don't really believe in soul mates. I believe that the one is who you choose and work to continue choosing and make it work with. I feel similar to, with the idea of a dream job. But what about you?
Cristen: Honestly, I think the biggest thing that's changed for me is that. Doing your dream job doesn't equate being your dream person, your dream self or your dream life. And in fact, in my experience doing my dream job — because this is despite the difficulties, this is still my dream job. And. It has required and will continue to require deep personal work. As we've talked about regarding Unladylike the book. Writing a book was my childhood dream, and it turns out in my experience with that it was a shock to discover that doing the thing that you've dreamed of and that you've worked so hard for also can come with it, can bring up just all of the all of your personal insecurities and shortcomings along with that.
Caroline: Sure. Yeah, it involves a lot of vulnerability and you know.
Cristen: So I think what I'm saying is if to for for myself in order to maintain my dream job, I need a dream therapist.
Caroline: Hear, hear. All right y'all. We’re gonna take a quick break and when we come back, our senior producer, Nora, has a game for us, and we ask each other a couple more questions.
[MIDROLL]
Cristen: We're back and we're joined by unladylike senior producer Nora Ritchie. Hi, Nora.
Nora: Hi, Cristen and Caroline, I am so honored to be here.
Caroline: Well, we are so happy you're here, too. Now y’all you've heard Nora's name before, she has been our senior producer for several years, and that means that she has also been present for many of our hilarious Unladylike games. And now, Nora, we hear that you are bringing us a game.
Nora: Yes, yes. Finally, I have a game, so it's called Who's that Unlady? And here's how it works. I'm going to play a short clip from an old Unladylike episode, and you have to tell me what Unladylike guest is talking. So bit of a walk down memory lane here.
Cristen: All right, let's do it.
Nora: OK. All right. First up.
Big Freedia: when you bounce and you are working it out, you are shaking
Cristen: Yes. Big Freedia.
Nora: Yes, that's totally Big Freedia. One of my one of my all time favorite episodes. OK, here's the next one.
Nicole Byer: I have no idea how to, like, meet a man. So I'm on these awful, awful dating apps.
Cristen: I know this one, I know there's one bing bing bing. She just co-hosted the Critics Choice Awards, Caroline.
Caroline: Oh, Nicole Byer?
Cristen: Yes.
Caroline: Oh my God, her voice. All right. Caroline [01:15:17] I wonder. I'm going to blame this on the earbuds.
Cristen: Well I also know because I I support her Patreon 90 Day Bae. Her 90 Day Fiancé recap podcast.
Caroline: What a great interview. She was. She was so much fun. Yeah, one of my favorite interviews, for sure.
Cristen: Love her
Nora: I listened as a fan because that was before I worked on the show. So throwback. Before my time. OK, here is another one of my favorites.
Laurie Santos: Scientists tend to define happiness in two ways: They think of happiness as having joy in your life and joy with your life.
Caroline: Oh, is that Dr. Laurie Santos?
Cristen/Nora: Yes.
Caroline: OK. In our Ask Unladylike episode on happiness versus toxic positivity. That one was a huge hit with y'all out there, and I'm not surprised because I feel like toxic positivity is is a huge conversation point these days.
Cristen: Yeah, yeah
Nora: Yes.
Cristen: She was great.
Caroline: Mm hmm.
Nora: OK. Next up, we have a bit of an icon. I would say.
Geena Davis: I go to this meeting with my passion and notes and ideas and thoughts about why I.
Cristen: Oh, yes. This is our princess, right? Our princess from manifesting.
Nora: Nope.
Cristen: No?
Cristen: Wait, will you play again.
Nora: Yeah.
Geena Davis: I go to this meeting with my passion and notes and ideas and thoughts about why I absolutely have to play Louise in this movie.
Cristen and Caroline: Oh Geena Davis!
Nora: Yes!
Cristen: For some reason I was hearing an accent at first, that’s so funny.
Caroline: I was too I was too. I was like, Did we talk to Anna Delvey and I just forgot about it? Oh my God, Geena Davis, highlight
Nora: highlight, icon, icon
Caroline: So, my boyfriend at the time had bought us Lizzo tickets for the day that you and I were supposed to fly. We had like a turnaround. We were supposed to fly into Arkansas to interview icon Geena Davis at the Bentonville Film Festival. And I was like, Oh! Two icons, one of whom I would just see perform and one of whom I would actually talk to on stage in person. And it was kind of a no brainer to get to go talk to Geena Davis. Oh my god, she put me at such ease. She’s so tall and wonderful.
Cristen: Y'all, when I met Geena Davis and we said hello, she kindly told me I had lipstick on my teeth. It was amazing. She was wonderful.
Nora: What a kind and smart lady. OK, I have one final Who's That Unlady.
Samantha Bee: you know, we definitely went into this show with the intention of like kicking open the barn doors.
Cristen: Buzz buzz, that's Samantha Bee.
Nora: Yes! That’s Samantha Bee.
Caroline: Oh my god, Another one of my favorite interviews. Nora, you dimed it. I love it like Samantha Bee. She's so funny, but she's so approachable. I don't know if that's the Canadian in her, but like God, she just was one of the easiest interviews.
Cristen: Yes, yeah
Caroline: Because she's so kind and warm and funny, but also angry. And I just feel like all of those things together are just such a delicious combination in a guest. And obviously, I mean, she's obviously a professional. She's very good at what she does. Yeah, that was - oh! - another one of my favorites.
Nora: Yeah, and she has, you know, when she's not doing her show, she has a very calm interview voice. So I found her to be very relaxing. Interestingly enough, too.
Cristen: Yes
Caroline: She really does
Nora: Well, Cristen and Caroline, that was Who's That Unlady? Thank you for playing.
Cristen: Oh my gosh, thank you for such a wonderful game!
Caroline: That was fun. I love a trip down memory lane, especially one that involves Big Freedia.
Nora: Exactly. And I just want to say, this is our last episode and I’m going to really miss working with both of you. It’s been honestly such a pleasure. You both have such integrity, such creativity, such drive to make this show and I don’t know - I just want to say that I’m going to really miss you all. So, I’m not big on goodbyes, but that’s what I have to say.
Cristen: Well, Nora we’re going to miss you too! And I hope that we will see each other again sometime - in New York perhaps, or maybe in Atlanta if you make your way down here, but basically right back at ya. It’s been so fun working together. And thank you for all of your patience and your determination and dealing with me, even on my tougher days as well as my hopefully not-so-tough days.
Caroline: Yeah, no truly same. I have to echo that. Thank you for your patience, thank you for your warmth. You have the most like generous spirit and you have really helped… you have really helped shepherd this show. And I just I appreciate your brains and your brawn when it comes to helping us steer Unladylike. So thank you. Thank you so much.
Nora: Thank you both, that means a lot.
[sting]
Cristen: All right, Caroline, we have just a couple more questions that we need to ask each other before you say goodbye. So what are you most proud of in what we've accomplished together?
Caroline: Oh my God. How do how do you narrow it down?? Like, so it's a it's a it's a mix for me of the of the personal and the professional. So, number one, I'm incredibly proud of the community that we have built. You know, this goes back to an earlier answer that you were giving about, uh, you know, hearing from hearing from the audience. I'm I'm just incredibly proud that we've been able to. We've had the freedom to create the kind of content that we have that educates and validates. I've been incredibly proud of the fact that we have never tried to be prescriptive or lecture-y. We have followed our curiosity as we've experienced it and as it has been triggered by our incredible audience. So I am so proud of that feedback loop basically between us and the community that we've built. And then also. I'm most proud of us as a unit for leaving HowStuffWorks and going out on our own. It was hard as shit and it's been scary as shit. But you and I didn't want to keep creating content for someone else. We didn't want to keep creating content with limits and caps on it. And so, yeah, those are. If I had to narrow it down, I think those are two of the things that I'm most proud of. But what about you?
Cristen: I, too, am proud of us betting on ourselves and taking a big risk on ourselves. And I'm also very grateful that we didn't know how much of a risk we were taking at the time. And I'm proud of us doing what we set out to do with Unladylike. I went back, Caroline, the other day and looked at our original pitch for the show and we wanted to make a more narrative, intersectional feminist podcast, and we wanted to create a platform where we elevated more voices and told more stories that deserved telling. And we've done that and obviously, like there's still a lot more that I want to do. But I'm I'm really proud of our growth as feminists who are white but not white feminists.
Caroline: Well, Cristen, as I. pack up my little my little tote bag and my stick and bindle and hit the road. Do you have any advice for me?
Cristen: You know, I have no practical advice to give you because y’all Caroline is one of the most just diligent, timely, organized people that I know and have had the pleasure to work with. So there's nothing professionally that I would advise you, and also like you or you are already doing the thing of following what is right for you and paying attention to that and and allowing yourself to change and grow. And I think the main advice that I would give you, though, just as as a human person is to not underestimate yourself and your little tote and stick and bindle, you know, I understand fully where you're coming from when you talk about feeling an absence of creativity and a desire to figure out more like who you are and like what your personality is and all of this stuff. And I just hope that you also remember that there's already so much there. There's so much there, there. You are incredibly patient and kind, and I would not be here without you. And I appreciate more than I can express the ways that you have challenged me and also held me accountable and also comforted me over the past five years. And I am I am excited for you to take this next step.
Caroline: Thank you.
Cristen: Now what advice would you give me?
Caroline: I mean, similarly, I don't have like practical advice in terms of anything career wise. Like I said, you are the most creative, like funniest person I know in real life, so I don't have any doubt that you are going to take off like a fucking rocket in whatever direction you want. In fact, I was just talking to my boyfriend the other night about this all, you know, all of this life moving forward. We're buying a house together, so we're talking about jobs as well. And I was like, you know, if I had to guess, Cristen is going to take Unladylike to places that like, I can't even imagine because I just I I think you're going to shoot out of a cannon creatively, I have no doubt. I have complete faith in you. Like you've been my soft landing place for over a decade now when I'm freaking out. The few times I'm not freaking out. I know that anything that I'm feeling or have to say or any like, you know, anything from the the. The profound to the snarky Twitter commentary, I know that. I have a place to come and talk to you about it, because you're a fantastic human. My bit of advice overlaps with the advice you gave me. Having said all of that about your immense creativity and talent, I don't want you to undersell yourself, either. And I don't want you to give away your power without someone even asking first. You have so much talent and power. And I don't want to see you give an inch. You are your boss. As long as you want to be
Cristen: Not to be confused with a Girl boss.
Caroline: Right. Yeah, fuck that. Yeah. Um. But I just want you to remember how much power and talent you really do have. And no one can take that away without your permission. And don't ever don't ever apologize for being as powerful and talented as you are.
Cristen: Well thank you. I’m going to need to sew that on a pillow so that I can remind myself of that every day. And the thanks don’t end here, because we’ve got a lot more people to thank.
Caroline: Oh yeah, we have not created this show alone.
Cristen: No, no. We have our just day to day Unladylike team, our little coven, who I’m going to be so sad not to be Slacking with all the livelong day. Our fabulous senior producer, Nora Ritchie. Our story editor, Gianna Palmer, Our associate producer Michele O’Brien, our executive producers, Daisy Rosario and Peter Clowney. Thank all of you so much for keeping this show going. And also just making just making us better podcasters.
Caroline: Oh yeah And let’s not forget our amazing OG production and engineering team. Original Unladylike producer Abigail Keel. Clare Rawlinson. Andi Kristens. Sam Lee. Julie Subrin. Jenny Radelet. Laura Mayer, Gretta Cohn.
Cristen: Stephanie Kariuki. Shruti Marathe, who always transcribes our tape, our original engineer Casey Holford, and also final shout out to Chris Bannon, who was essential in getting this show originally greenlit. And wow I don’t want to use the ol’ cliche of “it takes a village” but I guess it takes a village!
Caroline: to raise an unlady
Cristen: to raise an unlady who will be unruly and go her own way
Caroline: Absolutely. I mean the support from those folks and from our Unladylike community truly, truly has meant the world. Just thank you. Thank you. And thank you, Cristen, for this amazing journey.
Cristen: Well, you know - cheers.
Caroline: Cheers.
