Transcript | Vegan Feminism Beyond Food

[00:00:00] DEMI COLLEEN: I remember having what I thought was a well intentioned conversation on Twitter about, um, sustainability and veganism. And I said that I will buy some second hand leather items because they've already been made and they last a long time.

And she very, very seriously told me that I should have my vegan card revoked. Um, there was no, that it wasn't satire. She genuinely meant that. And I thought, well, like if you're holding the standard that high, anybody that's thinking about stepping into this is going to be terrified.

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[00:01:05] CRISTEN: This is Unladylike. I'm Cristen and I am an omnivore.

Yeah, I confess. Today when I ordered a latte, and the barista asked is dairy okay in that, I said yes. And I'm not totally joking when I say I'm a little embarrassed to admit this.

I do enjoy vegan food. I look out for cruelty-free cosmetics, and ethically, politically even, I probably should be vegan.

Like, I am a loudmouth feminist, always yapping about pro abortion this, and reproductive justice that. And yet, I'm fueling up on chicken embryos to go smash the patriarchy. You know? Like, I see a contradiction there.

Then there's the whole trend factor. The vegan population is growing by leaps and bounds, I think is the technical term for it. And vegan food, vegan beauty products, these are both multi billion dollar industries. Capital-B big veganism is real, but what's so fascinating to me about veganism today are both its intersection with feminism, which we're going to get all up into, as well as the deeply entrenched gender on our plates, specifically the masculinity of meat.

In the U.S. and the U.K., most vegans are women. And it's a conversation that's about so much more than food and contextualizes veganism in ways that I had never thought of before.

I stumbled across our first guest when I was, nerd alert, looking up studies on gender, feminism, and veganism. And Dr. Catherine Oliver's study jumped out at me. It was titled “Mock Meat, Masculinity and Redemption Narratives: Vegan Men's Negotiations and Performances of Gender and Eating.”

I mean, talk about Unladylike catnip, which is vegan? I'm pretty sure. It's gotta be, right?

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[00:03:48] CATHERINE OLIVER: I'm Catherine Oliver. I work at Lancaster University in the UK as a lecturer in the sociology of climate change. Since about 2015, I've been working on various research projects around veganism.

[00:03:59] CRISTEN: So I gotta admit when I was starting my research for this episode and looking around, uh, for different experts, I was not expecting to talk to a geographer. How do these two things intersect?

[00:04:16] CATHERINE OLIVER: Yeah, vegan geographies is a bit off the wall and a kind of new area, but it's really about how veganism is kind of rooted in places and kind of shows us how people interact with the world differently once they become vegan. So yeah, it's a slightly kind of different kind of geography than people might have talked about, thought about before, really.

[00:04:38] CRISTEN: Tell me a little bit about your own vegan backstory, how you became vegan and kind of what it means to you personally.

[00:04:47] CATHERINE OLIVER: I went vegan when I saw the film Earthlings. It's a kind of undercover documentary footage showing all of that really kind of horrific stuff in farms, puppy mills, um, the entertainment industry. It's narrated by Joaquin Phoenix.

Uh, I wouldn't watch it again now, but it did kind of turn me vegan overnight. It was only once I became vegan, I started thinking about feminism. So this would have been, uh, I guess about 2013. And that kind of aligned with a, with a cultural shift in the UK, at least with seeing a resurgence, uh, and seeing kind of popular feminism reemerge.

So actually it wasn't feminism that led to veganism for me, it was very much the other way around to the way that people are trying to traverse veganism and feminism as connected today. And that was, yeah, about 10 years ago this month.

[00:05:40] CRISTEN: So let's get into more of the gender of it all, because I believe the estimate is like there are twice as many vegan women as vegan men. Why the gender gap?

[00:05:54] CATHERINE OLIVER: Yeah, so it's interesting because it isn't just in veganism that we have this gender gap. This has always happened in animal welfare and animal, and the animal rights movement as well, which kind of preceded veganism or sort of happened at the same time as veganism.

Is it that women are more connected to animals? Is it that women are more sentimental? Is it that women are more emotional?

And really, for me, it's, it's sort of, all of those are none of them. It's a kind of cultural, social, political reason that more women would be vegan than men, and that's around the cultural expectations of masculinity in Western society to eat meat.

If you don't eat meat, you're not manly. Whereas for women, a more vegetal diet kind of salads is more an acceptable diet. So it's easier in many ways for women to go vegan, and they don't experience the same kind of dismissiveness or as much kind of tension or backlash for going vegan as men do. And it isn't as much of a threat, I suppose, to their kind of core identity and their core social relationships.

[00:07:03] CRISTEN: The most visible image, I guess, of veganism in Western spaces are often thin, white, wellness-y type women. You know, your Gwyneth Paltrows. And is that new at all?

[00:07:25] CATHERINE OLIVER: So it sort of is new and it isn't new. I guess that kind of image of veganism is more attached with the health based side of veganism.

So there's kind of three main reasons that people go vegan: for animals, for the environment and for health. And it's really that health based one that we see the rise of the thin white woman influencer and a lot of the associated aesthetics around that. So the kind of Instagram pictures of food, big Buddha bowls. Do you remember Buddha bowls? They kind of took off and they were one of the like trademarks of these influencers.

Whereas that doesn't actually really reflect the people who are vegan. The fastest growing demographic of vegans in the U S is Black Americans. So yeah, basically it sort of doesn't reflect the constituency at all, but those are the people I suppose that capitalize on veganism really well because they fit really closely with every other, uh, kind of social and cultural privilege.

And we see a similar thing with the rise of the male vegan influencer as well. This kind of, yes, macho, macho, vegan influencer, I guess, who basically the only thing that's different about him is he's vegan, but otherwise he totally kind of fits those ideals–muscly, lean,you know, he likes to eat burgers, just they're vegan burgers.

So, yeah, it kind of, that's kind of how that rise happened, but it certainly doesn't reflect the reality.

[00:08:51] CRISTEN: This is such a basic kind of question, but why is meat so gendered?

[00:09:04] CATHERINE OLIVER: Yeah, it's almost hard. It's a simple question, but it's really hard to answer. And so the vegetarian feminist theorist Carol Adams puts it under a kind of domination matrix.

So meat is masculine because men dominate animals and dominate women. And it's the same kind of logic of domination that makes meat so important to this kind of masculine identity. And we see this in the kind of rise of the beef only diet. It's kind of, uh, used to prove masculinity, that we can dominate nature and dominate women is part of dominating nature.

And this is quite an old ecofeminist idea that's been around for decades and decades. And Carol Adams really pioneered this in the 1990s.

[00:09:55] CRISTEN: What then is vegan masculinity? And why did you want to study it? I think you spent a number of years on, like, deep in hashtag vegan bro kind of spaces.

[00:10:10] CATHERINE OLIVER: So it wasn't the first thing I started thinking about, but when I was talking to men and started following all these kind of vegan male influencers, I became really fascinated with how they were capitalizing basically on veganism.

And this isn't to undermine their commitment to animal rights or their commitment to veganism, I just found it utterly fascinating that basically these vegan men were presenting an aesthetic of masculinity, the kind of ideal aesthetic, muscular, lean, strong, eats a lot, is powerful, goes to the gym, but they were doing it all through this vegan lens.

And so what I found was that was actually very different to vegan men who I'd interviewed. So not influencer men, but just men who I'd spoken to who weren't trying to, I guess, capitalize on their veganism. They weren't trying to be famous vegans. And so online, it just didn't challenge that kind of idea of masculinity as eating a lot and looking a certain way and being a certain way and acting a certain way.

But when I turned to interview people, actually, a lot of them talked about how becoming vegan had made them rethink their masculinity, rethink their relationship with women, think more about feminism, think more about kind of sexism. And this was often rooted through learning about like the dairy industry or the egg industry, setting them on a new path to learn about, uh, yeah, feminism, I suppose.

And so they basically, a lot of the men I spoke to came to a point where they didn't want to be part of that masculinity. That was around meat eating and domination and all of those kinds of things that online hadn't really changed.

So, yeah, so it just became this really kind of interesting juxtaposition between what was that online presentation of vegan masculinity that is basically there to try and attract men in to prove that you don't have to lose your masculinity by going vegan versus actually these really nuanced, complex kind of face offs with masculinity and challenging men's own place in the world.

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[00:12:21] CRISTEN: You mentioned that learning about the dairy and egg industries were particularly like eye-opening for some of these men in terms of understanding feminist connection to it. Why dairy and egg in particular?

[00:12:38] CATHERINE OLIVER: So basically there's a lot of activism connecting, which I'm quite critical of a lot of it, connecting women's rights or feminist activism with animal rights and animal activism around the exploitation of reproduction for milk and eggs in the dairy industry. I'm basically talking about how much pain and suffering specific to female animals happens in those industries.

And there's lots of kind of people who try and compare or use that as a statement to tell people to go vegan. Now, some of the problems with that are the kind of of direct comparisons between those kinds of suffering, which I would say we should more be talking about the shared logics here, rather than directly comparing one to the other.

And this has been done by some like famous, well, famous, famous, I'm saying famous famous in the kind of vegan circle, uh, activist men who have made very kind of powerful statements about calling this, for example, rape, um, when it happens to cows. but having kind of no sensitivity or nuance or really even thought behind what they're saying and what that would mean to women kind of survivors.

[00:13:57] CRISTEN: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that because I've I've run across the, like, cow rape language, I've also run across the language of the, like, chicken eggs, things like that, of, like, forced birth kinds of language, and I can intellectually understand the parallel that they're trying to draw, but I, It just kind of rubs me the wrong way, and partly in the context of being in the U.S. also right now where, like, reproductive rights are just actively being stripped away.

But does it do a disservice at all to veganism at large to kind of boil it down to these more hyperbolic statements?

[00:14:52] CATHERINE OLIVER: Definitely. I definitely, I definitely think it does. And I think those comparisons can be not just problematic, but just wrong, like to make those, those statements, because what they do is reduce human suffering and they reduce animal sufferings.

They do a disservice both ways because we can talk about, we know enough about the ills of industrial agriculture to talk about that as its own thing and to man its own form of suffering and we shouldn't need to have to. uh, compare it. And it particularly feels particularly bad when it comes out of these kind of self appointed leaders are men who don't really know why, or it seems like they almost are intellectualizing it.

And it's not that kind of embodied knowledge that women might have in reaction to that. So yeah, I basically think it does a disservice to both sides and it oversimplifies how we might think about those things as connected in like kind of carceral logics or connected in kind of logics of domination and logics of exploitation.

Whilst retaining their own unique character, they also make problematic comparisons to, for example, slavery. There's also been problematic comparisons made to all kinds of um, oppressions. I guess I have a lot of problems with just the kind of clickbait culture of activism. It wants to rile people up, I guess, to get a reaction, but I don't know that that actually gets people on board with anything so much as just causes more, um, distance between them.

[00:16:32] CRISTEN: You mentioned that, uh, people, non vegans kind of surveilling vegans food intake is one thing. But it also feels like there's vegan-on-vegan surveillance is happening as well?

[00:16:43] CATHERINE OLIVER: Definitely. You can either see the external face of veganism, which could be lovely and friendly or could be quite aggressive. Uh, you, you can also see the kind of internal debates over even the defining of veganism, like who gets to be vegan, who gets to be the best vegan, and what are the limits of, of veganism really? What if you accidentally eat something that's not vegan?

And it's not just about eating, right? So it's, it's kind of the kind of veganism as an ethics and a politics sort of precludes like sexism, racism, ableism, because it's about practicing compassion to all living beings, yet those things do have legacies in, in the, uh, and active kind of problems in veganism. So yeah, it, it, there is that.

And then there's also the, the, the self surveillance. So you kind of, uh, internalize that. So you internalize, am I a bad vegan? Am I doing enough?

And this was something that everyone I talked to, people who I would say were quite big active people doing lots of activism would actually not define themselves as activists because someone else was doing more.

So there's an internal surveillance as well that are constantly being, uh, all three–the external, the internal, and the self surveillance are constantly running up against each other. And this just becomes habit, I guess, in everyday lives of vegans.

[00:18:07] CRISTEN: In reading about vegan masculinity, it made me curious what, or is there, vegan femininity?

[00:18:20] CATHERINE OLIVER: I suppose there are, similarly to the kind of white masculinity that I've thought about, there's kind of white women influencers who capitalize on their kind of, as we've talked about, their kind of young, thin bodies to make money, to make, get followers, to get opportunities.

But what I found in my interviews is that it actually allows people to kind of freedom to think beyond what they thought they were or how they saw the world. So that switch from being not vegan to vegan is such a changed worldview that actually lots of other questions come up for people like, what about feminism? How is this connected? What about anti-racism? How is this connected? What about queerness? How are these things connected?

And so veganism isn't an end point. It's more of an opening to how the world could be different and how we could think about it differently. And that was certainly true for me, actually, when I went vegan, I started to make lots of other connections that actually I thought, oh, you know, what's happening over there? And what are these kinds of oppressions and dominations that uh, have, they're not the same, but they have kind of, they are shaping society.

So actually it's more of a transformation than an end point, if that makes sense.

[00:19:41] CRISTEN: From your research, did you notice any kind of gender differences in this vegan stigma that people experience?

[00:19:53] CATHERINE OLIVER: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think lots of, uh, the women who I interviewed who went vegan, a lot of concern was made about their health, and it just being a fad. So kind of doubts about their, their commitment to this, questions over their health, and so on, which is something I guess it comes up with women's diets a lot and women's decisions a lot. It's a fad.

Whereas the stigma that men faced was more directly about them being effeminate and demasculinized, if that makes sense. The soy boys. Yes, the soy boys. So it was more directly about them becoming. uh, less of a man because they didn't eat meat. Whereas women's womanhood was never called into question from anyone I spoke to.

So that was the big difference. And all of the men I spoke to were still vegan, so obviously dealt with that and pushed back against that kind of toxicity around them, what it means to be a man and how you have to eat meat to be a man.

[00:20:58] CRISTEN: The health concerns that a lot of women vegans will encounter, is it partly a pathologizing of women of like, you either have an eating disorder or like, you're going to do something that's going to disrupt your menstrual cycle?

[00:21:17] CATHERINE OLIVER: Yeah, definitely. So it's, it's fascinating because veganism is critiqued as being the healthiest diet and not healthy at all. And you're going to live forever and you're going to immediately die. Um, but yeah, it was definitely, it was definitely a kind of, is it because you have an eating disorder? How are you going to get your iron so you can have normal, whatever that means, menstrual cycles? Are you kind of trying to lose weight? Are you worried about your body?

And it was really undermining that this could be for any other reason than attached to weight. Like health beyond weight, if you see what I mean. So it was only ever about health as weight. It wasn't about health, like your mental health or kind of physical, you know, gaining strength. The concerns were always actually related to weight loss and that being a problematic thing.

[00:22:07] CRISTEN: It is really fascinating how veganism from this, this perspective is, seems like such a Trojan horse for like all of our just modern day gender panic that's still, that's just still, still out there.

[00:22:20] CATHERINE OLIVER: Yeah, it definitely is!

[00:22:26] CRISTEN: Do you think veganism as it stands now in this more kind of commodified sense, is it losing some of that immediate connection?

[00:22:38] CATHERINE OLIVER: When I think about where I see veganism now, it's very much about, uh, the food, it's very much about consumption, it's very much, like I say, about commodification. So I think that path is a bit more convoluted because veganism's big business or this kind of plant based eating is big business.

People are, or companies are making a lot of people are making a lot of money out of veganism. And in that, yeah, there's definitely a concern that it's lost its kind of radical edge, but at the same time, the more people that hear about veganism and eat vegan and try veganism and the easier that it becomes, the better I suppose that is for the world, for the environment potentially for people's health.

Although I'm kind of not sold on veganism being better via health one way or the other. I don't necessarily think it's that relevant. I'm probably terrible. Um, but I don't think that's the biggest impetus for, for making, for going vegan.

I think it can be healthy or not, or not be healthy, um, like any other diet really.

So yeah, it's, it's definitely a concern and how do you balance the concern of something that was radical becoming mainstream and retaining its heart. And it's something we've seen with feminism, something we–becoming a kind of t-shirt slogan, something to commodify.

Um, so yeah. It's, it's a difficult balance, I think.

[00:24:07] CRISTEN: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about veganism, gender, feminism, anything like that, that you want to make sure listeners know?

[00:24:17] CATHERINE OLIVER: What I found really interesting about this was how veganism was a space of liberation and transformation in, for people's gender, politics, and kind of social thinking, social and political thinking. That it wasn't this awful end point where they just became vegan and then it was terrible, which can often be the narrative that we get. But actually it was a moment of opening to the world.

And yeah, the world was, looked a bit scarier maybe for a lot of people, but it was a moment of, of definitely liberation and freedom for men, women, and nonbinary people I spoke to as well.

[00:24:58] CRISTEN: Unladies, you're going to want to stick around till the very end of this episode, like you were planning to, I'm sure. Right? Because Dr. Catherine Oliver's answer to what is the most unladylike thing about you was one I'd never heard before, but it was also very relatable and hilarious. And I think y'all are going to appreciate it.

My next Unladylike guest is a vegan beauty influencer. And yeah, she's also in the UK alright? This is a British episode.

Gotta stop doing accents.

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[00:25:55] DEMI COLLEEN: I am Demi Colleen and I am a social media influencer. When I started my blog, the conversations and the things, the topics I used to write about weren't really being had within certain communities. So I felt like it was absolutely my duty to be someone who kickstarted that.

So that was why I started and it's um, why I've continued.

[00:26:20] CRISTEN: Tell me the story then of your vegan journey. Like, did you grow up in a vegan home? Was it something that you kind of arrived to when you were a little bit older?

[00:26:33] DEMI COLLEEN: Yeah, I definitely did not grow up in a vegan household.

So, um, my heritage is that I'm half Irish and half Jamaican. So in both those cultures, meat is quite a common and normal thing. So it wasn't anything that I'd even considered as a child or as a young teen, but funnily enough, I'd always had this ambition to become a vet and work with animals. So somehow I didn't quite make the connection, uh, between the animals that were on my plate and the jobs that I wanted to have.

But, um, when I turned, I think it was maybe around 17, 18, uh, and I was at college and I had a few friends that were vegan, I think things slowly started getting under my skin, I suppose, as the reality of making that step to becoming a vet or working in that industry was becoming reality.

Um, I realized that I was kind of being very hypocritical and it didn't actually really make sense to me to have someone kill these animals for me to consume. And yet in another breath, I was also trying to save other types of animals, um, for people to have in their homes. There was just obviously this massive disconnect.

So it was something I did pretty much overnight, um, which I do not recommend. It was not a wise thing to do. Um, again, this is talking about, like, I suppose 10 years ago. How veganism is now, the things that we have was not like that back then. So my options were a bit more limited and I made myself a bit unwell.

However, I don't regret it at all. It’s one of the best things I ever did both for my health and just general wellbeing. And I did work in the veterinary industry and it felt good to know that I was trying to minimize my harm that I was inflicting on animals, um, in every capacity and not feel like a massive hypocrite every time I put my scrubs on.

[00:28:32] CRISTEN: You mentioned your blog and how certain topics that you were writing about, like you were starting conversations that needed to happen. What were those kinds of topics, um, that you were spotlighting?

[00:28:45] DEMI COLLEEN: The things that sort of, I was writing about, and I guess apparently we're getting under people's skin were talking about racism within the vegan community, especially the online vegan community. Talking about white veganism. I spoke about racism within the beauty industry as well.

And specifically, I suppose, talking about vegan beauty always kind of like came back into that sort of category and that spiraled into talking about things like blackfishing and being an influencer and navigating through this space as a minority and, you know, whether that would be being left out of you know, PR lists or seeing campaigns happen where there was absolutely zero diversity in any capacity.

These were things, they're not new. It wasn't that I was shining light on them as a sort of profound, uh, statement. It was more of the fact that I think within these industries, whether it be beauty, influencer, veganism, it's been very much keeping the status quo as well as it being hush hush because nobody wanted to jeopardize their position. Nobody wanted to make enemies or have these brands think badly of them.

Whereas I didn't really care if I burned any bridges. I had no interest because at that point I definitely didn't see this as becoming my career anyway. I was just writing a little blog, and whoever read it. I was happy that I was getting a few numbers. But I didn't really care what those brands thought if they thought negatively of it, I thought if they did think that they're not brands I'd want to work with anyway, and judging by some of the hate mail I got, um, definitely didn't win some, some demographics over that is more than okay with me.

But typically most of the people making these comments are all white men, which I thought was interesting. It wasn't really the, the. the way that I thought it was going to go, but I think it's more of the fact that people, a lot of white men don't like being reminded that they're white men. They almost see it as some sort of, I don't know, whether it's like a slur or that by pointing out their whiteness, it takes away from anything that they've achieved. Which is a whole different conversation.

I've seen how these conversations and things that I've written about, specifically talking about that, have had an impact on brands. I remember there being one particular campaign that I was actually told wasn't happening anymore, but did go ahead. And when it went ahead and I saw it come up, every single person on the campaign was a white woman.

And so when I messaged them or I brought it to attention to my followers, you know, I ended up having to have a conversation with, you know, someone quite high up on the, on the global brand, as well as the PR agency and talks about why this is a problem and how it happened and why it shouldn't happen again.

So, you know, I happily take any of that. You know, the, the letters that they want to write or the comments or whatever it is, if it means that actually it does lead to tangible change. And I'm still gobsmacked when I see a brand that actually is doing it well because unfortunately it's still so rare.

[00:31:57] CRISTEN: Well, I want to know how veganism connects you to your roots and culture as a Black woman.

[00:32:08] DEMI COLLEEN: I think when I first started, uh, my vegan journey, it isn't actually something I really considered, um, as to how it related to me as a person, my heritage, my culture. But as I got older, I realized that veganism has become incredibly whitewashed in the online communities.

So whenever it's spoken about, whether that's in the media or on social media, whether that's positive or negative, you know, whether it's because of a certain type of activism or a pat on the back about something, it's always white companies and white people. But there's never this focus on actually where veganism may have originated or how some cultures have been doing it since forever, like Buddhists and in Rastafarian religion, as well as a lot of South Asian religions like Hinduism, they often have a vegan diet and way of living as well.

So it's, it's quite interesting that we know these things really, because you can say those things to people and they go, oh yeah, of course I knew that, but it's never a focus. And when I realized that that was happening again and again and again. Every vegan campaign, every veganuary, it was always about one aspect of veganism. It was never about, you know, anybody else.

And I started feeling incredibly isolated. And I made a point then to sort of seek out other Black and people of color influences in the vegan community because I thought maybe if there was more, I suppose it would be like combined our power sort of, and like we, we had a bit more of a presence online, and the brands realizing that they were whitewashing their campaigns or whatever it is, and that they're not talking about our point of view and our perspective of veganism, that maybe things would change.

And there are a few brands that definitiely I think that has been the case. They often every year will highlight certain vegans and everything. But again, it reminds me a little bit of like the Black History Month, you know, like that's the only time of the month that you really want to focus on. Like, kind of tokenized? Yeah, um, but every other part of the year it's like, not at all.

Um, but it has got better, I definitely will say that there's been an improvement. And I think it's really brought me closer to my own heritage by deep diving into the histories of the countries that my parents are from and how veganism has tied into that culture and food is obviously for a lot of cultures it's a massive thing it's it's very bonding with your community and your family.

So it's really changed my relationship with food as well it means a lot more to me than I think it did before. It's not just something to have to keep going. It is love, it's nourishment, it's all of those things because the way that I think about how things are grown, and certain dishes, the history of them, for example, it's just, yeah, completely changed my relationship with my diet, as well as, as my culture.

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[00:35:16] CRISTEN: How would you distinguish veganism from white veganism, aside from the obvious element of vegans who are white?

[00:35:24] DEMI COLLEEN: Yeah. So I think that's the thing that like gets people's backs up is like when you say white veganism, they think that you are specifically pointing out skin color as like just differentiating them between other people. And it's absolutely more than that.

It's, it's, it's a different ideology to what veganism is and has been about–it's a way of navigating the movement and lifestyle with a complete kind of lack of thought or ignorance towards the bigger impact of the diet, the lifestyle, and the history.

For example, there's obviously a lot of comments from big vegan movements, which may be led by white vegans, who say the only way to do it is to go vegan. There's no excuse for anything else. You're a terrible person if you don't. And that doesn't actually allow for a conversation to happen to talk about people who are, you know, Native or are able to hunt in a sustainable way. Their practices are not like what we have here with this, you know, certain type of farming. Like it's not, it's not comparable, but they don't want to have that conversation as far as they're concerned.

What they say is, um, the only thing that matters, and everyone else's is wrong. And as I said, it takes away from also the historical element of where it originates. So they don't want to talk about the fact that actually veganism existed in other cultures in a different way.

And this sort of perfectionism that they're trying to chase doesn't actually exist because we don't live in a society that allows that. We live in a society where there are food deserts, where people can't get fresh vegetables. Um, and, you know, perhaps they are relying on fast food or, or it may be that they're able to get meat a lot easier than anything else. Uh, those you know, that are on poorer incomes or on some sort of benefits or disabilities.

There's like so many different factors and intersections of this that they just refuse to acknowledge. And I've seen some mortifying things happen like within like vegan, uh, Facebook groups where they will have a go at disabled people for taking pills that have gelatin in them, even though those pills aren't the only thing that are, you know, like keeping them alive. Or having a go at Indigenous people for, as I said, their hunting practices.

At the same time, there are so many other ways in which we are like, we all oppress others and that can happen through veganism. You know, for example, we occasionally get these foods that are like superfoods or they're really popular, like avocados or quinoa or goji berries or something. And we don't have a conversation about where it comes from, whether the farmers are compensated for their work, how they're treated, how far does that have to fly to get to us? Who is actually bearing the cost of this for you to be able to sleep better at night because you said that you saved an animal?

You know, it's bigger than that. And that really is what peak white veganism is about, basically it's only I in vegan. Like, there is no I in vegan, but that's all they see. It's just like, they're singular actions.

That's all that matters. It's kind of like, it's just, oh, I saved a cow, or, you know, I didn't eat meat, so, you know, for this many years, so I've saved this many animals. But during that time, you may have oppressed hundreds or thousands of people of color, but apparently that's okay.

We can't have this conversation about veganism without talking about the different intersections. It's just not possible, and that's what I get frustrated about, but, um, I do think the tide is turning a little bit. I think people are coming to terms with how veganism is not perfect in the way that we sort of, um, perpetuate it and present it in the society we live in, especially online, you know, I get very tired of seeing big vegan pages, for example, talking about the newest vegan chocolate or whatever, but then it's like, owned by Nestle, and I'm like that doesn't make sense.

I'm not going to pat them on the back because they've made this into a vegan chocolate bar with the crimes that they have committed. Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, but because those victims are people of color, I suppose that's, that's okay. It just gets overlooked.

It's a very long winded way of saying it's essentially racism in the vegan industry.

[00:40:23] CRISTEN: Yeah, well, I mean, and everything that you're describing sounds like the classic hallmarks of white supremacy. And I am curious, in those kinds of conversations and debates that you've noticed in the online spaces, if they tend to be particularly gendered at all, of like, who's doing the talking? Is it vegan mansplaining or is it really kind of across the board?

[00:40:52] DEMI COLLEEN: To be honest, I think it's across the board, but also in different ways because I think the way that I've experienced these conversations have always been varied. But equally, I could probably pinpoint how they would go, like, based on gender.

Um, I think, for example, we have some, uh, like, vegan festivals and events that happen here in the UK, and they are run by a lot of vegan men, and for example, there's one that I can think of where they typically tend to platform very problematic people who may have been, you know, sexist, they may have been racist, they may have been transphobic, but they're vegan, so they still get a spot on this, on this event, on this stage.

And even when those things have been brought to their attention, they just refuse to acknowledge it because often they will platform other men, uh, big surprise, and they just, they never want to call other men out for their behavior or anything that's happened. That's even if we get to the point where they can actually admit that what they've done is wrong.

Whereas for a lot of vegan women, I think it's, it's not on those levels. It's more sometimes actually I think it could be even more insidious because they are things that are happening more on the ground, in the groups. They're the ones that are making the comments that are preventing, you know, they're barriers to people wanting to even come into it.

A lot of people say that one of the reasons why they don't even consider veganism is because of how a lot of white vegans behave, how a lot of women will do this sort of like not just I'm better than you rhetoric, but also look down on you. Like having a go at somebody because the medication they take or, um, because their partner isn't vegan or something like that is, is just, it's like a different level of like, I don't know what world they live in.

And it's sad because it just ruins the entire movement. I think the whole point of this is that you're trying to get people to kind of join in and show them that it's great and easy and accessible. And then they just go and do the opposite thing. Um, so it's different ways.

I think it's definitely across the board, but um, I wouldn't say anyone's worse than anybody else. I just think it's like, yeah, different levels and different, different ways that it gets perpetuated.

[00:43:37] CRISTEN: It also strikes me as a very like classist and low-key colonialist kind of line, but maybe I'm completely out of line?

[00:43:47] DEMI COLLEEN: Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I've definitely had that argument, which is why I said that, you know, I know why people do say it, because that, I hear that a lot and again, I, I agree.

I do know where they're coming from and in some ways. If I was able to sort of phrase it better, I would be inclined to agree to a certain level. However, it, it's like this then kind of links back into when I say about peak white veganism because it's, I would love to know what those people consider, um, as the ultimate feminist, because I can guarantee none of them are there.

None of them have reached it because we don't have this level of perfect It doesn't exist. There is no such thing as the perfect feminist. But their only priority is non human animals. Because I can guarantee that anybody who makes that argument perpetuates an anti feminist mindset or behaviors towards non white women.

There are things that they will do that are going to affect Black women and women of color, as well as, as you said, with classism as well, talking about people, women that are in poverty or on a lower income. They will 100 percent be doing things that impact them, maybe even directly through being vegan.

I don't see them going on some massive, you know, campaign against importing a certain type of fruit or vegetable because of what it does or because of its impact. Because it's not the right type of victim.

The right type of victim is one that can't speak because they get to speak for them, and it ties into that savior complex because they get to make it better.

But they know realistically that the change that they would need to inflict to help the women of color and the people of color that are affected by their behaviors would take way more work. Way more work than just a diet change. It would take a whole different level of activism that I don't think any of them are prepared to do.

Because also the reward is different. The reward doesn't make them feel warm and fuzzy. The reward doesn't make them sleep better at night. I don't think you can ever sit there and tell people that they are anti feminist because they're not vegan. I don't. It's just trying to score points, and it's a very, very dangerous road to go down, I think, to start playing that, because if they really want to open up that can of worms, I don't think they'll be able to play that game at all.

[00:46:48] CRISTEN: What would veganism, a culture of veganism that is centered around Black women specifically look like?

[00:46:59] DEMI COLLEEN: I suppose when I kind of picture that in my head, it, it's not like I even have to conjure up something that hasn't existed. I suppose that takes me right back to my own culture and thinking about veganism in Jamaica or Rastafarianism and also kind of like pulling from other, um, cultures as well.

And I think I see the word harmony kind of floating around in my head. It's kind of more of a symbiotic and, you know, person and earth type relationship. It's about taking and giving rather than, I suppose, the individual. And, you know, it is a hard pill to swallow to know that some people are always going to have meat in their diet, regardless of whether it's sustainably sourced or not.

But it's this understanding that number one, you can't control everything. And it does tie into this sort of like colonial mindset that you get to rule over everything. You get to dictate what everyone does. It's not going to happen. Like regardless of how much you get it in the news, how much, how many followers you have, it's not going to happen.

So you focus on what's around you and what you can nurture around you. And I think, you know, if we really changed our relationship with the earth and food and community, um, it would be a lot easier, I think, to probably move on to other areas of veganism rather than the main issue now, which I think, you know, for a lot of white vegans is just going to be that they want to convert as many people as possible, which is giving very cult, I have to say.

But I think that there are other things that need to be explored that aren't just based on numbers. Numbers are just like a relevant thing at this point.

Um, and it's not like a badge. It's not something to boast about. So I think I see a more of a harmonious type of relationship with, like I said, the earth, with each other, based on sort of like cultural practices that I'm kind of thinking of that that have existed.

So it's a very idealistic, um, scenario. I'm not sure that, um, we'll ever be able to achieve such a thing, but I can, I can dream.

[00:49:46] CRISTEN: Well, is there anything I haven't asked you about your work or veganism that you want to make sure listeners know?

[00:49:54] DEMI COLLEEN: I welcome anybody that even if they're not actually keen on becoming vegan or like they're specifically put off by you know, some of the things that we've talked about, I would definitely recommend, you know, like following me and having a, and having a chat, like having a conversation about these things, because I think I want to know other people's ideas on how they think these things can be achieved because I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert. I'm not going to pretend that, um, I have the tools to do it, but I know I have a bit of a platform, and so any way that I can you know, um, uplift anybody else's ideas and, and their platform. Um, I'm definitely here for it.

And, um, just no hate letters, I guess.

[00:50:44] CRISTEN: Yeah, definitely no hate letters!

[00:50:45] DEMI COLLEEN: I actually made a decision yesterday. Um, I thought they were quite a good thing to put on their website. So I'll put them there. Um, if anybody's interested, just so they know that if they're ever thinking of writing me one, it's all been said before. So, you know, they can just, if they want to sign their name on the bottom, that that's good.

[AUDIO STING]

[00:51:10] CRISTEN: Well, unladies, we've cleaned our plates. We're putting our forks tines down to signal that we are finished. Vegans, I know that you're out there. I would love to hear your thoughts. Good, bad, and you know what? Let's not make it ugly. Doesn't have to be ugly, okay? And my fellow non vegan unladies, I'd love to know what jumped out from this conversation and if it changed any of your perceptions about veganism.

And God, I mean, what are we going to do about the meat of it all, about the masculinity of meat. I'm not going to look at a steak the same way.

And thank you so much to our brilliant guests, Dr. Catherine Oliver and Demi Colleen. You can follow Catherine on Twitter@katiecmoliver and Demi Colleen @demicolleen on Instagram and Twitter.

And hey, you know what's another great idea? Following @unladylikemedia on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. Yeah, there's some great content going on over there. Now Twitter, okay. What are we gonna do about that, y'all? Am I co-signing a musky billionaire? Then again, every social media platform is owned by a man, so okay, let's get out of this and get into Extra Unladylike.

For weekly bonus episodes, full length guest interviews, and a bit more controversial episode on vegan feminism that was had between two non vegans. You can find that over on patreon.com/unladylikemedia. And I will say for that episode, Caroline and I go a bit more into the academic history of vegan feminism, which we didn't touch on so much in this episode. And we also get, you know what, we've got some words for PETA. PETA is a lot.

Patreon.com/unladylikemedia. It truly makes a huge difference. If you're still listening to this episode, that $5 a month goes directly to me keeping the heat on in the attic, okay? The attic is where I record. That, that would be a helpful note.

Unladylike is a Starburns Audio production, written and executive produced by me, Cristen Conger. Tara Brockwell is our senior producer. Katherine Calligori is our associate producer. Engineering and post production is by Ali Nikou. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit Mae Cohen, and Sarah Tudzen.

And til next week

[00:53:59] CRISTEN: What is the most unladylike thing about you?

[00:54:03] CATHERINE OLIVER: I guess the most unladylike thing about me is how much poo I have to pick up every day.Not mine. From my, my, my guinea pigs. But I pick up a lot of poo every day.

I want to emphasize it's not human poo, it's animal poo!