Transcript | Ep. 95: How to Do #MeToo Without Prison
[Stinger]
Alissa Ackerman: People sitting in a prison cell or being on the public registry, they don't get a lot of time to think about the impact of their behavior. But when they are sitting face to face with a survivor who is very intimately explaining both the short and long term impacts of sexual harm, they have to face themselves. And that's really, really hard to do.
[Theme music]
Cristen: When the MeToo movement caught fire in 2017, the loudest demands centered on calling out offenders — and seeing them prosecuted.
Caroline: But MeToo founder Tarana Burke has been clear that mass incarceration is not the solution. Today’s guest, Dr Alissa Ackerman, agrees.
Alissa: Prison doesn't work. The fact of the matter is only three percent of people who commit rape will ever see a day behind bars. And the process of going through the criminal justice system is incredibly, incredibly harmful for survivors. They are disbelieved. They are victimized again. Their entire sexual history is put on display in the courts. So knowing all of that, we are looking for something that actually decreases harm, decreases violence, increases empathy, decreases recidivism. And that's what we find with restorative justice.
Cristen: Dr. Alissa Ackerman is a criminal justice professor at California State University at Fullerton, where she specializes in research on sexual violence and sex crimes policy. She’s also a pioneer in her field of resolving sexual violence through a process called restorative justice.
Caroline: So ordinarily, our legal system responds to criminal behavior with three questions: What law was broken? Who broke it? And what punishment is warranted?
Cristen: But restorative justice asks: Who was harmed? What are the needs and responsibilities of everyone affected? And how can everyone involved collectively repair the harm that was done? Basically, it’s all about healing survivors, communities and offenders.
Caroline: Today, Alissa is guiding us through the restorative justice approach to sexual violence, what it feels like for survivors, and why it’s a promising path toward preventing sex crimes in the first place.
Cristen: All to find out: How can we do #MeToo without prisons?
[Stinger]
Cristen: Harvey Weinstein in an orange jumpsuit has come to symbolize MeToo-era justice, but the movement's original vision resonates far more with transformative and restorative justice approaches.
Caroline: Toward the end of last week’s part-one episode on feminism and mass incarceration, prison abolitionist Maya Schenwar told us about the transformative justice model. That model aims to resolve harm without creating additional harm, and without involving the legal system at all. Restorative justice shares that goal, but it can be put into practice both inside and outside the system.
Alissa: What it entails is creating safe spaces for survivors and for people who have caused harm to talk about the impacts that sexual harm has had. And it gives the survivor a safe space to talk about really the very intimate aspects of sexual violence and the aftermath of that. It allows the survivor to ask questions of people who have caused harm. It also allows those people who have caused harm to ask questions. And so it gives them insight about the behaviors that they've engaged in that they would never get from being processed through the criminal justice system.
Caroline: The term restorative justice was coined in 1977 by prison psychologist Albert Eglash, but its core principles come directly from indigenous forms of conflict resolution, like sentencing circles and peacemaking courts.
Cristen: Most existing restorative justice programs focus on youth offenders and family welfare cases. But in recent years, experts like Alissa have started applying it to adult cases involving sexual violence for a number of practical reasons.
Caroline: Many survivors don’t trust police to properly handle their claims. And many know their perpetrators and don’t necessarily want to face them in a criminal trial.
Cristen: Plus, evidence suggests that the restorative justice approach is both more empowering for survivors than going through a trial and that it’s a more effective method for perpetrators to actually learn their lesson and not reoffend.
Alissa: But I think the backlash comes because people see it as soft. Right. They see like you've done something wrong. You need to do the time for it. But a harsh punishment doesn't do anything to reduce harm to anybody. And if you ask the men that I have worked with what they would rather do, face me or face another survivor or sit in a prison cell, they will tell you prison cell every time. So I think once people understand that restorative justice is not soft and that it's actually much, much more difficult to do, maybe they'll get on board
Cristen: Alissa has traveled across the country facilitating restorative justice sessions for more than 500 people — bringing together mostly male offenders and female survivors.
Caroline: There are two main routes to her restorative justice work: Either through the criminal justice system .. or outside of it.
Cristen: In the first case, the treatment groups are mandated as part of someone's conviction. In the second, an offender or survivor contacts Alissa independently to hold a session, usually when the statute of limitations has passed or is about to run out.
Alissa: So sometimes it's the survivor who reaches out and says, you know, “I'm ready to sit down with the person who harmed me. Can you help?” Other times people who have caused harm reach out and ask the same question. That's a little bit more difficult because these processes should always be survivor centered, and reaching out to a survivor and saying, hey, the person who harmed you wants to sit down and have a conversation can be harmful in and of itself.
Caroline: Centering survivors means Alissa doesn’t always bring them together in person with the exact offenders who harmed them.
Alissa: And then there are cases where, you know, a survivor wants to do this work but is not ready to sit with the person who harmed them, or the person who caused harm or is ready to do this work but they don't know who the person is that they harmed ,or it doesn't really feel safe to reach out to that survivor. And that's when we use this vicarious restorative justice process, where survivors will sit in in the place of the person that was harmed or men who have caused harm will sit in in the place of a perpetrator. And that's actually been probably the coolest outcome of these one-on-one sessions that I do, is men who have caused harm, who, as part of their accountability, have agreed to sit in as proxy offenders for me in other sessions so that they can help relieve some of the pain and the harm caused to other survivors.
Cristen: As you might imagine, perpetrators and survivors are super nervous when they first sit down with each other and Alissa. So at the beginning of each session, Alissa first introduces herself, both as a facilitator … and as a survivor.
Alissa: So we start by talking about the safe space that we are going to create, that there are certain values inherent in restorative justice that we're going to follow, like we honor the humanity of all people. We actively listen. We tell the truth. We are always honest. We honor vulnerability and authenticity, and oftentimes I will ask that we write these values down. We put them in the center of the circle, we put them between us.
Caroline: Alissa also asks everyone to bring an object that is meaningful to them.
Alissa: So for me, it's a piece of driftwood that my former therapist gave to me that looks like a wishbone because it represents a duality that we can hold multiple things right. We can hold that somebody caused harm and they're still a human being. And so we talk about that and I ask the people to to talk about what that specifically means to what the objects specifically means to them. And then I ask them why they're here. “What brought you to this circle? Why do you want to be here?” And that sort of gets people ready to dig into these deeper conversations. It's often in that first question where the person who caused harm says, “Well, I'm here because I raped this person, and I'm finally ready to come to terms with that and to do whatever needs to be done to make her whole again.” And then depending on the people involved and depending on what we've determined what their needs were prior to the session, then we go into a series of other questions related to the harm. So sometimes it's the person telling the story of what happened and how they felt, what happened in the aftermath. Many survivors want to know why or why them. And so we've spent a considerable amount of time walking through that. But it really depends on the people involved in the case. I’ve never had two cases that were exactly the same.
Cristen: The length of the process varies, too — it can take three hours or three years. But the end goal of the restorative justice process is some form of accountability — and that goes beyond saying sorry.
Alissa: So an apology is great, but an apology is passive. And oftentimes not enough. So oftentimes survivors want to see public accountability. Continuing to do the work to show that they understand the harm that they've caused. So, that involves men that I've worked with who continue to sit in as proxies for me. Talking to family members about the harm that they've caused, going to therapy for the first time, making a commitment to no longer drink alcohol, because when they drink, they behave in ways that are inappropriate. So it's always in consultation with the survivor, but also with the understanding that just because the survivor wants something doesn't mean that it's appropriate. And we talk about why. So I've had cases where the survivor wants the you know, the person who caused harm to publicly, you know, get out there and shout from the rooftops that they committed rape. And that can be very harmful to somebody. And so we talk about how restorative justice is about reducing harm for everybody while finding ways that make accountability meaningful for the survivor.
Cristen: One particular session sticks out for Alissa. The case involved a man who'd raped his best friend 10 years earlier when they were both in college.
Alissa: The man in the case first said out loud, “I raped you. I can't beat around the bush anymore. That happened.” And at the end of the session agreed to tell his family the truth. He agreed to call all of his friends, all of their mutual friends from college 10 years before and tell them the truth. He agreed to talk to his nephews who are now college age and tell them what he had done and explained what he had learned, you know, 10 years later, and he agreed to sit in as a proxy offender in other sessions because he realized how powerful this was for the person that he harmed and how powerful it could be for other survivors, too. Like, that's accountability. A prison sentence or you know a guilty verdict. That's - that's very different from what I'm talking about with accountability here.
Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, Alissa shares her own life-changing experience with restorative justice.
Cristen: Don’t go away
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Cristen: We’re back with Dr. Alissa Ackerman, sex crimes policy expert and author of Healing from Sexual Violence: The Case for Vicarious Restorative Justice.
Caroline: What about people who are concerned that this type of restorative justice only retraumatizes victims?
Alissa: So the restorative justice process is survivor-centered always. If a survivor is not ready to do this work, they don't have to. Right, nobody. Anybody who forces somebody into a process like this is doing it all wrong. So it has to be - the survivor has to feel safe. They have to feel comfortable. They have to feel ready to engage this. And if they feel retraumatized in any way, then we stop. But it is always driven by the survivor. So I have heard people say, “Well, it is retraumatizing for survivors.” Then they don't know what restorative justice is, or they're not doing it right.
Caroline: Alissa knows this firsthand. She initially got interested in restorative justice work after going through the process herself.
Alissa: I have to sort of share the backstory to how I got into it to be able to share how I go forward with it. So, as I said, I'm a survivor of sexual violence. I was raped when I was 16 years old, and I didn't come forward and talk about it publicly for 15 years, in part because of the work that I do as a sex crimes policy expert. I was afraid that people wouldn't take my work seriously.
Cristen: But about six years ago, Alissa decided that she couldn’t be silent anymore, especially given the work she does.
Alissa: And I reached out to a colleague and friend of mine who was a treatment provider for men and women who had been convicted of sexual offense and were now mandated to treatment in the community. And I reached out to her as a friend to tell her my experience, and what she said changed my life and made it so that it was easier for me to go public. So this friend happens to live in the town that I grew up in. And it's, you know, 5 miles or so from where I was raped. So I was going to be in town visiting my parents. And she said to me, “You know, while you're here, why don't you come talk to the men in my treatment group? But I want you to come as Alissa the survivor, not Dr. Ackerman the sex crimes expert.”
Caroline: Alissa agreed. The next night, she met with the group.
Alissa: I remember sitting in my rental car out in front of this plaza where the therapy sessions were taking place and I was sitting in the car visibly shaking, like trying to catch my breath. I was terrified. Not necessarily of the men themselves, I knew I was safe, I knew my friend would never put me or them in a position that was not safe for all of us. But it was the first time that I was taking off the shield, and that was scary. But once I got used to that, I recognized that that was the path to healing, was opening up about these very, very deep, intimate wounds.
Cristen: What do you think made that difference in terms of going through that deeper, more vulnerable place that you had not accessed before.
Alissa: I think the only way to healing is through the pain, And so when I agreed to do this, I sort of made the decision, like the time is now to really dig deep. I don't think I realized how deep I was going to let myself go with these men. It just sort of happened because I felt safe in a way that maybe I hadn't in therapy before, because what I recognized in these men was that they understood sexual harm in ways that others couldn't because they were there during the experience of sexual harm as perpetrators, but many of them also as survivors, too. And so there was a knowing that I've experienced with other survivors that I experienced with these men in a way that I didn't expect.
Caroline: What effect did your presence there have on them?
Alissa: You know, at first, I think they were very wary of me. And that's still the response that I get when I go to a new group. They're very wary. They want to know my angle. They want to know why I'm there. They're very mistrusting of others because of the way the criminal justice system has treated them. And once I explain that I am there to teach them, but also to learn from them, and to heal, but also to help them heal, they relax. And they - what they often say is it's the first time anybody thought of them as human. And I explained that that's really all I ever wished for myself was that the person who harmed me saw me as a human. And that really, like, stirs something in them because they recognize that the person that they harmed, they didn't necessarily see as human either, so I think it has a profound effect on them.
Cristen: In that first treatment session she attended, one of the men in the group had served 20 years in prison for committing a rape that was a lot like the one Alissa survived. At the end of the session, he asked Alissa if he could give her a hug.
Alissa: And I threw my arms around this man. And it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. Here was this man who had committed a violent rape and served 20 years in prison for and a woman who had experienced a violent rape and never got any form of justice or accountability or anything like that, having this beautiful, beautiful embrace. And we understood each other I think in a way that most people can’t understand.
Caroline: The next time she visited the treatment center, Alissa agreed to join in a restorative justice session for that same man and serve as the proxy victim in his case.
Alissa: And I talked about what I read in his police report and then when I talked about the consequences of it, I talked about the consequences in my own life. And both of us were in tears and all of the other men in the group were sort of there as supporters for both of us. And he said to me, like, “I recognize I could have been your perpetrator. I could have been the man who raped you. You could have been the victim in my case. And I never thought about the amount of harm I caused to this woman. Until I sat here talking to you.”
Cristen: That man has now graduated from treatment, and Alissa says he’s completely turned his life around.
Alissa: And he has forever stuck with me because he has given me peace. Right, I thought that the man who raped me was a monster. And I look at this other man and I realize he's just a guy who did a really awful thing. But I was able to teach him something that prison couldn't teach him.
Cristen: After that experience, Alissa and her colleague realized they weren’t just teaching the men some empathy and understanding. The work they were doing was restorative justice.
Caroline: From there, they created a new model. They took the vicarious restorative justice framework — where someone not involved in the case sits in as a proxy victim or offender — and applied it specifically to sex crimes. In serving as proxies, many of the men Alissa worked with found healing themselves.
Cristen: What role does shame play in how we currently punish people who have committed sex crimes in particular?
Alissa: Shame is at the heart of all of it, right. The whole idea of the registry is to publicly shame people. And oftentimes one of the reasons why people engage in sexual offending in the first place is because of shame. And when you talk to survivors about why they don't come forward, the first thing that they will tell you is shame. So shame is at the heart of all of this. And if we pulled back that. If we pulled back that emotion, we allowed people to talk about victimization, if we allowed people to talk about maybe some of the inappropriate sexual thoughts that they are having. But to do so in a way where they didn't have to be embarrassed, we would do away with a lot of the harm that happens right. When we just put it out there and talk about human sexuality and everything that comes with that. And we do it in a way that feels safe, We do away with shame. When we use that as a way to punish people, we just send people further into the closet unwilling to get the help that they need. And that's really harmful
Cristen: Where is the line between building empathy for people who have committed rapes, committed sex crimes, and excusing the behavior?
Alissa: Yeah. There is no line because there is never an excuse for causing sexual harm, ever. We must hold all people accountable when they behave in this way. I think the problem is that we think of this as an individual problem. Right, this is an individual issue, and it's only that there are bad men, bad apples, bad women who commit these offenses, when really it's the patriarchal society that we live in that allows this to occur. And so we're not holding ourselves accountable. So maybe that's the line, right, that we want to hold individuals accountable without us doing the hard work to recognize that we're part of the problem.
Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, Alissa breaks down how the #MeToo movement and feminist demands for criminal punishment … are part of the problem, too.
Cristen: Stick around.
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Cristen: We’re back with restorative justice expert Dr. Alissa Ackerman. When we left off, she was saying that accountability requires all of us to recognize how we’re part of the problem of prioritizing punishment over healing for sexual violence. And Caroline, there’s one example that she's written about that really grabbed our attention … and that’s the Brock Turner case.
Caroline: Yeah. So, background — in 2016, the then-19-year-old Stanford student Brock Turner was convicted of sexually assaulting another student, Chanel Miller, while she was unconscious. The judge sentenced Turner to six months in county jail, and he had to register as a sex offender for life.
Cristen: On the day of Turner’s sentencing, Miller read her victim impact statement aloud in court. It was the first time she’d spoken to Turner, since the night of her assault. She said “I thought there’s no way this is going to trial ... He’s going to settle, formally apologize, and we will both move on. Instead, I was told he hired a powerful attorney, expert witnesses, private investigators who were going to try and find details about my personal life to use against me, find loopholes in my story … in order to show that this sexual assault was in fact a misunderstanding.”
Caroline: When the full statement was published online, it incited viral outrage on Miller’s behalf directed at both Brock Turner and Judge Aaron Persky who sentenced him. People wanted MORE punishment.
Caroline: So Dr. Ackerman, you’ve written about the Brock Turner case as an example of what NOT to do in terms of fostering accountability for sexual violence, and how the system sort of prevented, at every step of the way, that from being a more healing, effective process. Can you tell us a little bit about why the system just sort of fumbled that whole thing?
Alissa: Yeah, and I think it goes all the way back to Chanel Miller's victim impact statement. In that statement, she said, if you had just apologized to me, we would not be standing here. We would not be in this courtroom if you had just apologized. But from the very, very beginning steps of our criminal justice process, people who have been charged with offenses are told remain silent because anything that you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. So the very thing that survivors need is the very thing that the criminal justice system doesn't allow for. And I understand why it's set up that way, but that makes it more harmful for the survivor. Right. The criminal justice process is about finding legal guilt. It's not about fixing harm. It was never what it was designed for. And so that's why the system fumbled in every step of the process in the Brock Turner case. Right, the sentence that he got is more than most people who commit sexual assault will ever get. He is now on the registry for a very, very long time, which comes with its own negative impacts. And for most of the public, they feel like that wasn't enough. He didn't get what he deserved. But from the very, very beginning of the case. He was saying to his probation at the presentence investigation phase that he wanted to apologize. He recognized that what he did was wrong. He was very, very ashamed of his behavior. The system didn't allow for those conversations to happen because the system is not designed for those conversations. That's why it fumbled.
Caroline: Near the end of her victim impact statement, Chanel Miller read aloud: “You are guilty. Twelve jurors convicted you guilty of three felony counts beyond reasonable doubt. … And I thought finally it is over, finally he will own up to what he did, truly apologize, we will both move on and get better. Then I read your (defendant’s) statement. … Somehow, you still don’t get it. Somehow, you still sound confused.”
Cristen: Do you feel like the feminist response to Chanel Miller's victim impact statement — the outrage, the viral outrage at the at his sentencing, like did feminists — I'll include myself in this, too. I was outraged. Like, did feminists fumble as well in terms of demanding more sentencing, get rid of that judge, focusing on the punishment rather than taking - taking a beat to consider what it was that Chanel Miller was even asking for in that victim impact statement.
Alissa: Yeah, I would say “we” because I include myself in that, too. We fumbled, we messed this up, and we do so whenever we see cases like this, whether it's Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby or Brock Turner, right. Like, we are outraged, and we have every right to be because the system has continually failed women at every step of the way. In every case, we have failed women. But if we are outraged at the system for not doing enough, then we are relying on the system to fix the harm that it's already caused. The only way to fix it is to prevent it from ever happening and to get men and women to understand how harmful their words and their actions can be. And we instill this in our young boys and our young girls from a very, very young age. I think about my own kids, and one of them had a Nike shirt and it said, like, I'm in charge. And there's another one that says, like, By any means possible, just do it. Like we are giving them messages from the time that they are tiny, that they can get whatever they want by whatever means. We see it in all of our politicians. We see it among powerful people. And then as feminists were saying, like doubling down on that system. It doesn't work. So I think we do do ourselves a huge disservice by being enraged that the system is doing exactly what it's always done. We have to change the system.
Cristen: In other words, criminal punishment isn’t rape prevention. And it certainly isn’t a cure-all for survivors. But like we mentioned in part 1 of the series, the mainstream feminist movement has historically advocated for doubling down on the system in regard to sexual violence. For instance, in response to the public outcry over Brock Turner’s sentencing, the California legislature in 2016 unanimously passed a new law mandating prison sentences for anyone convicted of sexually assaulting an unconscious person — and it was hailed as a feminist victory.
Caroline: How does the emphasis on punishment and on reckoning in MeToo, how does that affect survivors, for better or worse?
Alissa: If our focus is just on punishment, we're not helping survivors. I think a lot of us feel a great sense of relief when somebody like Weinstein or somebody like Cosby finally, finally is punished. And I use that word specifically because that - that's not accountability. Right. Harvey Weinstein is never, given the current system, is never going to own his behavior. Cosby is never going to own his behavior. And, you know, we can all balk at that, but unless they are sitting face to face, having to see the harm they've caused, they're never going to get it. So I think when we focus specifically on punishment, we forget about the thousands and thousands and thousands of us who will never get that — if you could see me, I am air quoting — “justice” that we so deserve. And so for me, when I think about justice and I think about a world free of sexual violence, that will never come through a system of punishment. That will only come through a system of prevention and a system that allows us to talk about the harm that was caused so that people understand what they have done.
Caroline: Speaking of just the way that the system is set up and that, you know, you've spoken about uprooting rape culture’s patriarchy, focusing on prevention. I was the victim of sexual assault my freshman year of college, and this was not a boogie man who jumped out of the bushes. This was someone from down the hall who just couldn't take no for an answer. How can I speak to my nephew, who is two years away from going to college, how can I speak to him about things like rape culture, which I'm not sure he believes exists, so that he isn't that guy, so that he doesn't become the guy in college in the dorm who thinks he's a nice guy but just doesn't take no for an answer.
Alissa: Yeah. You know, earlier I talked about the the object that I take with me for restorative justice sessions, and it symbolizes duality that we can hold two things. Because you can be a nice guy and still not take no for an answer. Right. And make it an egregious mistake like that. You can still be a good human. That's probably where I'd start the conversation. Right. You're a good guy. And sometimes even good guys make terrible mistakes. And when I was in college, there was a guy who made a terrible mistake because he couldn't take no for an answer. And this is what the impact has been like for me. And so maybe you don't believe that rape culture exists. But I can tell you from my own experience, having to live in the aftermath of a sexual assault, this is what it did to my life. You don't want to be responsible for doing that to somebody else's.
Caroline: Thank you. I think that that's that's a really powerful statement.
Alissa: You're welcome.
Caroline: OK unladies … what are your thoughts on the restorative justice approach to MeToo? Are you new to the idea like we are? Let us know! You can email us at hello@unladylike.co, find us on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and jump into the thread for this episode.
Cristen: If you want to learn more about Alissa’s work, check out her new podcast Beyond Fear: The Sex Crimes Podcast. In the meantime, if you want to get Extra Unladylike and binge some delightful bonus episodes on lady-only-apartments and an upcoming recap of the new Babysitters Club show on Netflix, head over to patreon.com/unladylikemedia.
Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford. Executive producers are Chris Bannon, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.
Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger
Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.
Cristen: Next week…
Michelle Jackson-Saulters: You know, being in a place that's - that's beautiful and maybe some place that you've never seen before or someplace you never thought you would go before, and to be there with other women and having similar experiences, there is a safety in that, there is a belonging. And it just really allows for people to have a higher level of freedom, I think.
Cristen: We’re talking with Kenya and Michelle Jackson-Saulters of Outdoor Journal Tour about their work bringing women outside..to hike and to heal.
Caroline: You won’t want to miss this episode, especially because it's the last one of Season 8! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Cristen: And remember, got a problem?
Caroline: Get unladylike.
