Transcript | Ep. 85: How to Feel Your Pandemic Feels

[Stinger]

Lindsay: This was never in the plan. I was like telling my friends, like, hey, before you go and have like two babies back to back, like maybe I don't know, check, like Farmer's Almanac or something like there's no pandemic panning out in the next few years because this shit sucks. So like to be aware that this is now a possibility and you could be trapped in your house with your kids screaming for like two straight months. And it's not ideal.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Caroline?

Caroline: Cristen???

Cristen: Today’s the big day. Unladylike, the podcast, has been sheltering in place since we went on season break in early April, and it’s finally time for her to step out again … and, yes, y’all she is wearing a mask.

Caroline: Well in related news, Cristen, this is MY first episode coming to y'all from my roommate's closet — it’s honestly really comforting to be in such an enclosed space lol.

Cristen: Mmm.. love a womblike space these days, too. Because yknow, we’ve basically been living in the upside-down where 1) global pandemic. And 2) home is where the EVERYTHING is. Allegedly non-essential jobs, gyms, daycare centers, doctors’ offices, your neighborhood byob bars ... they all moved home.

Caroline: Yeah, COVID has really put a fresh spin on having it all, Cristen. Which is why we’re starting this season of Unladylike with one of the most loaded questions you can ask someone these days: How are you doing??

Cristen: Yeah, I mean, I think we can all agree with the Unladylike listener at the top of the show that IT IS NOT IDEAL. This is a super emotional time for folks on so many levels, and a lot of us are experiencing different shades of grief over lost loved ones, lost jobs, or simply just a lost baseline peace of mind.

Caroline: Cristen, as of this recording you and I haven’t had close friends or family members who’ve gotten sick from COVID, but the pandemic has definitely changed our plans for 2020. By this time, we would’ve already been back from an East Coast tour where we were supposed to meet one of our favorite humans face-to-face for the very first time.

Cristen: Yeah, our first tour stop was gonna be in Chicago, home to Tyler Feder, the amaaaazing artist who illustrated our Unladylike book. And we decided that we still needed to call up Tyler anyway for THIS episode to find out how she’s doing. So, Tyler just published a book of her own, and it honestly couldn’t come at a better time for those grappling with a lot of loss right now ...

Tyler: Dancing at the Pity Party is a graphic memoir, which is like a graphic novel, but a real story. It's not like a regular memoir with a lot of graphic detail. Like it like feels weird every time I say it. Anyway, it's about my mom dying of cancer when I was 19, and it's like the whole enchilada from like when she first felt symptoms to then the diagnosis. Then when she died and the funeral and everything and then learning to like be an adult without a living mom. And it's not 100 percent sad. A lot of it is sad. But it's not only sad. It's not like The Notebook or something.

Cristen: This unladylike episode isn't 100 percent sad either! For instance, Tyler says that creating Dancing at the Pity Party not only helped her process her mom's death but also create meaningful art through that. We think hearing from someone who's been through it and come out the other side can offer some perspective and comfort to listeners right now.

Caroline: And speaking of listeners, Cristen, after we talk to Tyler, we're going to hear from unladies who've left us voice memos and called in to share how covid is impacting their day-to-day lives. Then, we’re closing it out with a much-needed Zoom trip to our fave unladylike therapist Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

[Stinger]

Caroline: Cristen, one of things I love the most about Tyler is her way of embracing the absurdity and awkwardness in the awful … like the time she and her two sisters had to make a very weird trip to the mall.

Tyler: We went shopping for like funeral clothes at forever 21. This is in my book and it was like, you know, like blasting, like club music in there. And and a cashier said to me and my sister, like, Are you looking for anything special? And we're like, No, that's OK. Just like, keep going through all the colorful clothes, trying to find, like, anything that was all black.

Cristen: Flash forward to this spring when Tyler was supposed to be out n about for her Dancing at the Pity Party book tour, and let's just say she hasn't needed to shop for any new outfits this time around…

Caroline: What has it been like to have your book come out during a pandemic?

Tyler: I mean, not at all what I was expecting for this book. But. But it's kind of been nice, I mean, it's like such a personal story and it's about a time of like illness and death, which is what's happening in the world right now. So. I don't know the fact that everyone is like stuck at home, which is sort of the way I am, even not when it's a pandemic. Feels like almost appropriate. I don't know if it were like an adventure or something like an action book. Maybe it would be different, but it's this like emotional, like family thing and everyone is emotional and stuck with their families.

Caroline: So a lot of people are experiencing grief right now - whether it’s because a family member passed or just because life is upside down. But grief is never just like one thing, and it's not static. So I'm curious, like how how has grief evolved for you and what have you learned about it, especially now that you've written a whole book about your mom?

Tyler: I think grief is something that's really personal and it's really different for every person who goes through it, and it's something where you can't really like predict how it's going to affect you. So like when my mom first died, my dad was just crying in public all the time and it was kind of embarrassing then. But now I'm like, you know what? Like, it's fine. People can deal with seeing someone showing emotion and like, that's what he needed. And now he's doing way better. And with me, I, like, got really sentimental and like kept a ton of my mom's stuff. And I found myself being angry a lot at like people who had complained about their moms where it's like, “oh, my mom calls me too much,” and I just want to, like, punch them in the face. And I would, you know, never say any of that. I just feel like, oh, yeah, that sucks. But. Yeah. It's just everyone's different. And it's still very much a part of my life. That's like another thing I've learned, like it's not going to go away and I'm okay with that. I mean, so it's been 11 years now since my mom died. And most of the time I'm totally fine. It's just like something I know about myself is that I have a dead mom. It's like a quality of who I am. But sometimes I'll just like have a whole, like, breakdown from like watching a movie or just something really small. And it's just like something I have to deal with. Just like any other part of my mental health. And that's OK.

Caroline: Yeah. has the like the current environment, the way things are, like, has this moment stirred up any additional emotions for you around the book or like around grief?

Tyler: I’m like not a particularly like touchy feely, like physically kind of person, but I have just been wanting hugs so badly during the pandemic and I live by myself with a cat who does not like hugs, but he has to deal with that because I'm gonna give him them anyway. But there is there's something relatable about the uncertainty in all of this. And that was something that was really hard about my mom being sick is that we were sort of like itching for any kind of like positive like theories or possibilities that we could find. So. It sort of feels like that's what we're doing now, it's like, oh, could the pandemic end by fall? Like, are we going to be able to do Halloween like normal or whatever? And that is like kind of how it was with my mom, I used to think like, Oh, will she be able to see me graduate from college? Like, do you think? What's going to happen? And that uncertainty is really hard to sit with. And I think we all have to do it now. Which is tough.

Cristen: What is your advice to listeners who want to support friends or loved ones who are experiencing grief, but like you mentioned, might not know the best way to express it. And we don't wanna be awkward and we don't want to like bring it up because we don't make things uncomfortable, but we also want people to know that we care. Like what? As as someone who has gone through it. What's your advice for for folks who want to help from the outside?

Tyler: I think something that's always nice is bringing up the person's parent or whatever a loved one in a way that's like unrelated to their death. Or like if your friend mentions, they're like dad or whoever to ask questions and be like, oh, yeah? What was he like? Or whatever? Because it's it's such a like balm to get to just talk about her when I'm sad and talk about not the sad stuff. I also found one of my cousins said to me after my mom died. Like, I can't imagine what you're going through. And that was like my favorite thing that anyone had said. Cause like, he couldn't imagine it, and he was like acknowledging that. And it just it made it easier to talk to him about it. Just like. It really like validated how I was feeling. I think also just like. Being available to your friend, just like for regular friends stuff, but not taking it personally, if they're your grieving friend is like unexpectedly canceling plans or something like that. Because everyone's different. I just think like validation, asking questions. Bring a baked good. No one's gonna complain if you bring a baked good. That's just like, I guess unless someone's like allergic to gluten. But you can bring a gluten-free baked good.

Cristen: Well, Tyler, thank you so much for talking to us today. But just for I mean, you've you've you've really imprinted on Unladylike in so many ways. And we just are thrilled for you and your book and. Yeah, it was so fun to get to actually talk to you.

Tyler: Oh my God to you, too. Thank you.

Caroline: Up next, we're hopping on the Unladylike Hotline to take listeners' calls about how they're getting through the quarantimes

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere.

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Caroline: We're back, and Cristen, you and I have been itching for some, y’know, socially distant human contact.

Cristen: Yeah, in the pre-pandemic days, Caro, I wasn’t much of a phone person. But a few weeks ago, I was THRILLED to open up the Unladylike hotline for a couple hours and check in with listeners.

Caroline: Same. And first up, a few unladies named Mackenzie, Tricia and Lindsay filled us in about what their COVID upside-downs look like...

[VOICE MEMO]

Mackenzie: My name is Mackenzie, I’m a senior in high school, and just like all of you, I’m in the middle of a pandemic. I can't stop looking back at that last day and we didn't even know it. My friends and I keep talking about it. And I remember going to school that week and it felt a little bit weirder every day, And I remember it was a Thursday that was our last day. And I jokingly said to my friends, who knows? Like this could be our last day of school ever. And like to think that that actually was is so crazy to me, so bizarre

[VOICE MEMO]

Tricia: Hello this is Tricia and I had Covid-19. I am an essential worker. I work in the health care field, and worked before and after being sick. I was sick starting in about mid-March. It took me 12 days of fighting every day with doctors and hospitals to get myself tested, and that experience was extremely stressful on top of already feeling like garbage. So what I’d really like to get out there is, if you do get sick don’t be afraid to advocate for yourself if you’re able, take care and stay out there. Much love to all of you.

[CALLER]

Lindsay: Y'all. It is straight chaos. We're all just like in survival mode all day, every day. And at the end of the day, I'm just like high fiving myself, like, hey, I did it. I survived another day with these, like, crazy kids and a husband that gets to, like, shut himself in our office all day while I'm just like, you know, watching cartoons and baby shark on repeat.

Cristen: We heard from a number of overwhelmed moms like Lindsay who needed to let off some steam… as well as folks dealing with quarantine relationship issues, like this next caller Melanie who phoned in bright n early in from Australia to catch us up...

[CALLER]

Melanie: I'm doing pretty well. I am actually surprised at how well I'm doing with all the lockdown stuff, to be honest. But yeah, either way, I did have two jobs. I now have one job and have a 4-year-old who's now not at childcare anymore, who is pretty much at home with me 24/7. Yeah. We're doing alright with it. It's the main sort of difference I've seen is that the whole changing situation has exacerbated a lot of issues that already existed in the marriage. So, yeah, we're just sort of navigating through that. And yeah, it's been interesting.

Caroline: Yes, so what issues have y'all been having to work through now that you're kinda stuck together?

Melanie: The main one that's bugging me the most is sort of the different ways that we're managing caregiving, so I'm working from home just for one of my jobs. And normally I would work one or two days a week. But because Bridget's at home with us, I'm doing like lots of little three-hour chunks because that's easier for a 4-year-old to cope with. And while I'm working, he'll like keep her alive and feed her and entertain her, but like that's it. Whereas when I'm taking care of her I'll like do the dishes, do some laundry, like clean a bit, like run errands, do stuff. And he apparently can't cope with more than one thing at once. So that's, yeah, becoming a bit of a problem.

Caroline: Is this something that like kind of already was percolating that you just hadn't talked about. Or is this something that has become clear only with the quarantine?

Melanie: No it's something we have talked about before and that has been an issue for a while, and we have done like counseling and stuff, but now that everything's in lockdown, like can't get away from each other. And so it's more of an issue because we're at home all the time. But it's also something that I don't want to bring up because we're home all the time. And I don't want to make things like awkward and, you know, act things up. So I'm just sort of putting up with it. I guess he's also putting up with it. Well, maybe he's completely oblivious, who knows? But yeah, it's just like what we've got to put up with until we're allowed some space away from each other to deal with it.

Cristen: I keep seeing all of these. Like stories and personal essays being written about this very thing of how especially being in lockdown and everyone being forced into the domestic space is really revealing how entrenched those traditional, especially when we get into like opposite gender couples, like how entrenched those like traditional gender roles still are. And. I just wonder, like what?

Cristen: what do we do about this, about making our domestic lives healthier too.

Melanie: Yeah, I don't know. Like, I've seen the memes going round and this sort of the two opposites, the one that says this going to be a baby boom in nine months. But there's also the one that says divorce courts are going to be like overwhelmed when we all get out of lockdown out. Yeah. I’m certainly not having another baby to fix this problem.

Cristen: I was literally thinking like yesterday about how like if any of my friends are having a lot of sex right now. Like, I don't even know them. Like what? Anyway.

Cristen: Thank you for calling us so early, we really appreciate it.

Melanie: Thanks for opening up the phone lines. It’s been good

Caroline: Oh, yeah. And I'm sorry that you know that this bullshit is going on, but I hope you work it out and I hope things get better and I hope you stay safe.

Melanie: Yeah. Thanks. You too. There's definitely lots of positives, some trying to focus on those.

Cristen: Definitely. Well take care and. Yeah. I hope that I hope that the rest of the quarantine goes OK.

Melanie: All right. Thanks. Good to talk to you.

Caroline: Thanks, Melanie. Bye.

Melanie: Bye

[CALLER]

Cristen: OK. Up next, we have Mackenzie.

Cristen and Caroline: Hi, Mackenzie.

Mackenzie: Hey guys, how's it going?

Caroline: Oh, you know.

Mackenzie: I do

Caroline: How are you? Tell us. Tell us what's going on with you.

Mackenzie: Oh, well, currently I am a juggling fiend. I wear a lot of hats at my house. I have three kids and a recently disabled spouse who had a near-fatal brain infection over the summer. After six months of marriage, she got really sick from a medication she was taking for M.S. and spent almost the entire summer in the hospital and then came home, like I said, disabled. And so as we're navigating that now we're we're navigating this COVID-19 thing. And, you know, all the kids are home from school and I'm self-employed. And so carving out time to run a business and school kids and take care of my spouse. And then there's that thing called self-care. My heart really goes out to anybody who's got people to care for right now. You know, it's it's a big job and it's it's really hard to take care of oneself, too. You know, while going through this unprecedented thing.

Caroline: Well, what have you been doing to take care of yourself?

Mackenzie: We get fro yo once a week.

Cristen: Nice.

Mackenzie: That's my love language. I have. I have an art studio in my basement that kind of doubles as my office right now. And I. I retreat into that space every day for at least an hour and just sink my fingers into a project or, you know, just putz around and or reorganized my paintbrushes. And I do get outside a lot. You know, we have what we're calling a victory garden starting. We're in Michigan. So it's still pretty, pretty cold. But, you know, we've started we've tilled it. And, you know, so getting into the earth has been really helpful for me. And yeah, just taking breaks and making sure to get away from it all iis something I'm really working on right now.

Caroline: Well, do you have any advice for folks out there who who are juggling a lot, too, and are trying to find time to take care of themselves on top of it?

Mackenzie: Absolutely. I think the concept of self-care is really rooted in privilege, and so I really hesitate to say, you know, self-care. But I think any kind of. Anything that feeds one's spirit, whether it be taking a bath or crying your eyes out in your closet or having fro yo or phoning a friend. You know, there's no shame in crying. I cry literally every day, and I feel so much better afterwards. And I'm open with those around me about my feelings. You know that I'm down in my office and the door is closed. That means I need time. You know, I sometimes I feel kind of selfish sitting down here by myself for an hour or two. But in the end, I think it makes me a better spouse and a better ring leader and a better mom. So, yeah, I think taking time for yourself is going to be the number one thing.

Cristen: Well, Mackenzie, thank you for taking time for us. We really appreciate it.

Mackenzie: Absolutely, I love you guys. You guys are great.

Caroline: Thank you!

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break, y’all. When we come back, we’re taking few more calls, a special guest tells us about her magical backyard

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere … j/k it’s not like we could … where would we even go?

[Midroll ad 2]

Caroline: We’re back taking your calls on life in the times of coronavirus..

Cristen: Let’s hop back on the Hotline, Caro!

[CALLER]

Caroline: Uh, Cristen, we seem to have someone pretty special on the line.

Cristen: Hi, mom.

Nancy: Hey, Cristen. Hey Caroline, how are you?

Caroline: Hi Nancy! Oh good

Cristen: So I’m curious mom, besides trips to the grocery store and whatnot? What is bringing you a little bit of joy these days, Mom?

Nancy: You know the answer to that question.

Cristen: No, I don't!

Nancy: You know how much I love my backyard. And my birds.

Cristen: Yes. It's a great backyard.

Nancy: I really am grateful for more time to really listen and pay attention to what's going on in my backyard. And finding and noticing, oh, the hummingbirds have come back, the blue grosbeak has come back and one really funny thing was two days in a row, the black snake that lives in our back yard came out, and I hadn't seen him in ages. And he's an important friend because he helps monitor the chipmunks, hopefully. But it's just those are the things that are just looking. Just it's I think it's been nature. Those are the things that have really taken a look and listening and things like that. And watching my little garden, my tiny little garden come back

Cristen: Well, mom, thanks for calling in.

Nancy: Well, thank you for answering my call.

Cristen: Yeah, well, I love you very much.

Nancy: I love you. And I think this is wonderful that you're doing this. And I love Unladylike.

Cristen: Tell Dad I say hi.

Nancy: I will do that. Good to talk to you girls. Women, you're not girls. You're women. I love you. I love you. Bye bye.

[CALLER]

Caroline: All right. Our next caller is Michelle. She is a teacher in Kentucky. Hey, Michelle, how are you riding out the whole quarantine team situation? How are you doing?

Michelle: Well,I really miss my class. I really miss my students and their routines. And I just it just getting boring. And I think just being a home and doing work just from home, trying to find a balance because it's so easy to spend hours on your computer

Cristen: How are your how are how are your students faring? Like, not so much like school work wise, but like, are they really? Does it seem like They're doing OK. I know there are some students that might be having a really hard time. I have this student and he's a very good student.

Michelle: And I've noticed that he had not done any work. So I sent him a text every month and over a few days later, he just reply something like hey Mrs. [unclear] my life has been really hard in the quarantine. I apologize. And then. You never know. I mean, you see that kids in your classroom and sometimes you don't think about all just things they're going through at home. So I'm guessing he must be going through something. And I mean, I'm not going to be mean or anything. I just need to understand everything that he's gone through. I just told him, you turn in your work whenever you ready to turn it in, it's OK. I mean, that's the only thing I can do and try to show their support.

Cristen: Well, thank you so much for calling in. We really appreciate it.

Michelle: No, thank you for having me.

Michelle: It's nice talking to you.

Caroline: Stay safe. And thanks for calling.

Michelle: Thank you.

Caroline: Bye bye.

[CALLER]

Cristen: OK. Next on the line. I think we've got Aurora.

Aurora: Hi.

Cristen: So where are you? Are you calling in from?

Aurora: I'm calling you from Albany, New York. And I'm I'm 16, so I'm and I go to a boarding school in Massachusetts. So I have been like the longest I've been with my parents in like the last year and a half. So that’s-

Cristen: Woah, tell us about that. How's it going?

Aurora: it is hard. I think, you know, as a teenager right now. And I mean, it is hard. I think, you know, as a teenager right now, it's like the time that we should be ending and kind of moving away from our parents and spending more time with friends and kind of like figuring out who we are. I feel like for a lot of us young people, this might be the first time where we have to like sit down and we can't really run from our self. So I'm trying to, like, work on myself and like, look inward and see like, OK, what? And listen and like, see what I need to do so I can become even in this mist all this like the adult that I want to be eventually.

Cristen: So how are you holding up day to day?

Aurora: It ebbs and flows. Like some days I'll be like, oh yeah, I wanna do all these things and I can accomplish them and other days I feel really down and really anxious about the state of the world or being away from my friends and you and you feel I feel really alone. So I think I'm just like also kind of telling myself that all of my feelings are valid and OK. And just like take it one step at a time. And I also I'm not gonna make myself - in general I have a problem with feeling like I'm not doing enough. You know, I'm not getting enough done. And I'm like, OK, you have to let that feeling go. And you have to, like, do the things that make you feel good and it's important to stay active, but also realize that like burnout is a real thing and it's not that's not sustainable and that's not going to help you. So I think like trying to let go that these kind of toxic things that I tell myself that are actually hurting me.

Caroline: Can I just say that some of the stuff that you're saying took me years to figure out? Wow, I'm very impressed.

Cristen: I'm just like I'm over here quietly taking notes like, OK, now.

Caroline: No, you're right. I can't do everything. You're right. Do you have older friends who like can't walk across the street stage for graduation or can't have a prom? All of that stuff.

Aurora: Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm pretty close with the seniors, and I think just just thinking about being like loss that will never. I'm really glad that I'm not a senior and then I'm a sophomore, but I can't imagine like also just like the springtime and kind of like these closing months of your high school careers, like a time for closure because a big chunk of your life, it’s like four years and you're also like going off to college and it's just like this real steppingstone and that you don't get that. That's really, really hard. I think goodbyes are really important. And this is not a proper goodbye. And also, like four years, like, you know, everyone worked really hard and like, grown so much.I feel really, really a lot of empathy as much as I can for the people who won't be able to get those kind of closing moments.

Cristen: Well, thank you, Aurora. We really liked talking to you.

Aurora: Thank you so much. Yeah, it was really lovely to talk to you, too.

Cristen: Oh, Caroline, it’s time for therapy with our next and final guest, who is a returning guest, I should say

Caroline: Yeah, y’all might remember Dr. Joy Harden Bradford from episode 43, How to Feel Sad. She’s a licensed psychologist, podcaster and founder of Therapy for Black Girls, based right here in Atlanta. She’s also created a whole online community called the Yellow Couch Collective, which is centered around mental health and wellness for black women and girls.

Cristen: We wanted to check in to see how Dr. Joy is doing, and if she can offer us some professional advice on how to deal with our emotions in this very emotional time

Caroline: Hi, Dr. Joy, this is Caroline.

Cristen: This is Cristen.

Joy: Hey y'all, happy to be back with you.

Caroline: We’re so glad to have you back. To just start off, can you tell us, what is it like being a therapist right now?

Joy: Yes. So there is definitely lots going on. So my practice at this point is still very limited, though I am anticipating that I will be taking on new clients in the very new near future. But just in conversations with colleagues who are still practicing with a pretty full caseload, they're holding a lot. You know, and also very quickly, a lot of them have has to make the transition to virtual sessions when they weren't before. And so it's a very different kind of experience. Right. So, you know, our training is in holding space. And even though we may have training in like how to perform virtual therapy, it is a very different experience. And so people have been finding that they are not able to see kind of back to back clients like they were before, just because the energy it takes to do virtual therapy is very different than in-person therapy. So I think all of us are like learning new things about ourselves and how we practice, but also holding just lots and lots of anxiety and grief. And, you know, stress for the clients that we are seeing.

Caroline: So your practice is called Therapy for Black Girls. And with covid hitting black communities especially hard, how and from your perspective, is that affecting your clients’ mental health?

Joy: I think in addition to the stress and anxiety and, you know, grief experiences that other people are experiencing, there is also this additional layer, I think, for lots of black clients of how systems have yet again failed us. So there's also very rightfully so anger, continuing mistrust about, you know, like how this will continue to develop and what a vaccine would look like and is it even going to be safe. I also think that there have been conversations just about, you know, when we think about like the types of businesses that people are reopening, especially, I mean, we're all in Georgia. Right. And so, you know, we know the governor has opened nail salons, bowling alleys and barbershops. And there tends to be a high number of people of color in those kinds of occupations. And so, you know, I think people are angry. People are feeling discarded. Yet again, you know, I think many of us already kind of understood our relationship to this country. But I think for some people, it is a reawakening to how grossly unjust lots of these systems are towards the black community.

Cristen: Right. And what do you recommend in terms of how to be there for other people and show up for other people when we are socially distanced and might not be able to literally show up for people.

Joy: Yes, I think you have to be honest in terms of your bandwidth, you know, because I think, again, you know, as women, sometimes we like say kind of over give and show up, even if we're running on fumes. And so I think especially right now, it's important to have an honest assessment of your own energy in your own bandwidth, of being able to show up for other people and then let people know, like, hey, I can maybe do this, but I can't do all of which you're asking for. But if you do have the bandwidth, if you do have the energy, then I think it is helpful to make sure that you're checking in with people. So, hey, just thinking about you, you want us to send you a quick text if you're able to kind of drop off a little care packages. If you live in the same city as people that you love, then doing those kinds of nice little surprises in small gestures I think can be helpful for people who may not who may find it difficult to get out, to go to the grocery store or pick up medication you can offer to do things like that. I was I think small gestures can go a really long way, especially given that we are not able to gather with one another right now in the ways that we've been used to.

Caroline: So as listeners will remember, we have talked to you before about like managing and experiencing our sadness. But we're also hearing from a lot of people who are dealing with grief and anxiety. So what is your advice for managing all of those mixed up kind of turbulent emotions right now? And is it different from what it would normally be?

Joy: Mm hmm. So I do think that there are some special circumstances here that add a different flavor, so to speak, to what anxiety and grief is looking like right now. I think particularly related to grief, I think that there are lots of different reasons for grieving right now. And so, you know, one, people are grieving the loss of loved ones who have passed due to covid 19 or who have passed for other reasons. And we are not able to gather the kind of memorialize people in the same ways. .... But I think people are also grieving and again, rightfully so, the loss of what they thought this year would be like. Right. So for people who, you know, lots of different things. Right. People were getting married, having their first children, graduating from high school, and college or, you know, graduate school. People had athletic competitions like all of these things that have been upended because of this state of affairs right now. There's also space to grieve that. Right. And I think sometimes people are getting into this feeling guilty because they feel like, oh, well, I've not lost a loved one or my my family has not been hit. So I don't deserve to grieve those things. But you do deserve to grieve those things. That is something that you were looking forward to. And so it's OK to say all this kind of sucks that this doesn't look like what I planned it to look like. So to be able to find somewhere that can hold space for that conversation for you, I think is going to be really important.

Cristen: Is there anything, Dr. Joy, that we haven't touched on that you would like listeners to know in terms of just surviving, getting through this time and mental health management?

Joy: I think it's really important to remember that we are all just doing the best that we can. There is no playbook for how to survive a pandemic. You know, you will hear lots of conversation about, oh, if you don't come out of this with a new business and a new book and all of these things, please ignore those things, you know. But what I want to say, if how you are managing your stress and anxiety is by pouring it into new projects, then that is great for you. But that doesn't mean that that is the only way to survive this. You know, so lots of people are just trying to get through one day after another. So please don't feel pressure to learn all these new skills and new task and hobbies. Again, if you feel like you want to do that and you have the bandwidth, then totally fine. But for everyone else, really, if all you can do is get to the other side of this healthy and mostly OK, then you have won. That is the goal for this.

Caroline: Yeah, I thought I was gonna learn to make jewelry.

Cristen: We all just laugh.

Caroline: Yeah. Yeah

Cristen: Well, Dr. Joy, thank you so much for taking time to check in with us. We really appreciate it.

Joy: You’re welcome

Caroline: OK unladies …how are you doing in these quarantimes? What’s bringing you joy? What’s majorly sucking? We want to hear it all. Tell us your thoughts! You can email us at hello@unladylike.co, find us on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and jump into the thread for this episode.

Cristen: We heard from a lot of y'all for this episode but couldn’t fit everyone in. Our Atlanta neighbor Aisha called about being a caregiver for her mom. Aisha works with an organization called Caring Across Generations, which advocates for caregivers — and was founded by past Unladylike guest Ai Jen Poo! Definitely go check it out at caringacross.org.

Caroline: Plus, if you want more of Dr. Joy in your life (which c’mon who wouldn’t), be sure to check out our episode from March 2019 called How to Feel Sad with Dr. Joy and Nora McInenery.

Cristen: For episode’s sources, transcripts, and our weekly Unladylike newsletter. You can also pop by our shop while you’re there to glow up your work-from-home uniform with an Unladylike sweatshirt!

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford. Executive producers are Chris Bannon, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week…

Tori Amos: That was a time when playing two women on alternative radio was one was too much. So we were pitted against each other. The battles were raging with the boys club, and especially if you were doing something that they didn't understand. They would just say, Tori, you're gonna destroy your career. And I'm like, well, if I can't wake up and look at myself in the morning, who cares? Self-respect, right?

Caroline: We’re talking to the one and only Tori Amos, patron saint of straddling piano benches // 90s feminist singer songwriters

Cristen: Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

Cristen: Get unladylike.