Transcript | Ep. 82: How to Break Up with Mom

[Stinger]

Harriet Brown: Why can't I just let this stuff go? Why can't I just, let my mother’s mean comments, just kind of roll away and not internalize them? You know, and I really tried for a long time to do that, but probably because of my own mental health issues, I was not able to do that. So,, in the ideal world where everyone's like 100 percent, mentally healthy and strong and tough, maybe we wouldn't have estrangement. But that's not the real world.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike, where we find out what happens when women break the rules and decide to not just let this stuff go. I’m Cristen.

Caroline: I’m C. And that was Harriet Brown, describing a type of breakup that you’re not supposed to talk about or even really consider —

Cristen: — and you’re definitely not supposed to tell the whole world about it, like Harriet did in her book, Shadow Daughter: A Memoir of Estrangement.

Harriet: I actually did not want to write this book. I distinctly did not want to write it, and I didn't want to write it for a long time. And then at some point I felt like I have to write it. Because this is something that we don't talk about. You know, really, the impetus for writing the book was so other people didn't feel alone with their horrible estrangement stories. And so they knew like, hey, this doesn't make you a freak and it doesn't make you a evil person. And it doesn't mean that you're incapable of love. It means you reacted in this way in this situation for reasons that are probably good ones for you.

Cristen: And it might also mean you’re Meghan Markle and your father actively gossips about you to the press! Like, it’s fairly common to hear about celebs parting ways with their parents to various degrees. Beyonce fired her dad as her manager. Young Carrie Fisher had such a fraught relationship with her mother that it became the movie Postcards From the Edge!

Caroline: Honestly though, parental estrangement is a Stars, They’re Just Like Us situation …because It happens to plenty of us regulars, too — except it’s even more taboo. Like, when Harriet was going through it with her own mom, she conducted her own research just to better understand it.

Cristen: So, this episode, Harriet's breaking the silence on mother-daughter break ups, and what ultimately led her to call it quits herself.

Caroline: And later we'll hear from Jackie Sojico. She's a new mom who worries about replicating the mother-daughter relationship she grew up with and recently ended.

Jackie Sojico: It was such a scary word for me for so long, because I think it was like, if I say this, “I'm estranged,” I'm acknowledging that something terrible has gone down. But like everyone that I've talked to — and it varies, like sometimes it is like some something bad has happened. But like for a lot of people it's like it's kind of like a relief. Like it's something that makes them able to be who they are and function and like not be like a total mess, which is good.

Cristen: Get ready, cause it’s all to find out: What happens when daughters break up with their moms?

[Stinger]

Caroline: So Cristen, when I was prepping for this episode, two big things surprised me.

Cristen: What’s that?

Caroline: Thing 1: breaking up with a parent is actually pretty common! The stats aren’t airtight, but at least in the US and UK, an estimated 10 to 20 percent of folks experience some kind of family estrangement.

Cristen: And thing 2?

Caroline: Well, I was expecting there to be a ton of research on who/what/when/where/why it happens, yknow? I mean, cutting ties with your mom, it’s so ripe! Like it’s got psychology, mental health, trauma … But practically no one has studied it, partly because it can just go unspoken

Cristen: Yeah, estrangement sounds like such a formal term, but it's not a legal designation like emancipation because it revolves around adult parent-child relationships.

Caroline: One thing Harriet also emphasizes is how estrangement encompasses a whole spectrum of situations — geographical distance, emotional distancing or completely calling it quits, which we're focusing on today.

Cristen: Could you give us an example of sort of that line between just standard parent child conflict that's going to happen and actual like boundary-crossing problems that tend to lead to estrangement?

Harriet: Yeah, that's a that's a good question. And I can speak to it from my experience, but also having interviewed 50 or 60 other people who have been through estrangement, the stories are often very I mean, the details sometimes are different, but the - the basic pattern of the story is often the same. And that is that there is some fundamental lack of ability to trust in the relationship, you know, and whether that comes from way, way back in the relationship or whether it's something that sort of enters it. I mean, most of the time there's something that's really wrong and there's something that's really been wrong for a long time. And so, you know, in a sort of non-estranged, quote, ordinary family, of course, there's going to be conflicts and of course, there's gonna be problems. But you have the ability to get past them because there is this fundamental trust and sort of mutual understanding that, you know, we might disagree. But I have your best interests in mind and I know you have mine. In families that have estrangement that seems to be missing. There's not that sense of like unconditional love, trust. So often there's just this sense of like it's not just this one thing that you did. It's everything that has gone into our relationship. Is - it's the pattern of things. You know, it's this sense that you're always saying things that are meant to cut me down. You are always, you know, violating my whatever privacy, my boundaries, whatever. And very, very often there's substance abuse or mental health issues involved or alcoholism. Those have been features in a lot of the stories I've heard, too.

Caroline: So what are some estrangement myths that need busting in your mind?

Harriet: Oh, there are a lot of them. One of the most pervasive myths is this idea that kids today, they're spoiled. They get mad because mom and dad didn't give them a Porsche for their high school graduation or they didn't like something that one parent did one day. And so they walk off in a huff, and it's a tragedy, and everybody suffers. In other words, this idea that people walk away from their families in a very casual way and that is not that, it's just not true. What the research suggests and what my own experience suggests is that walking away from your family is so complicated and it goes against so many social norms and prohibitions that it really takes a lot to make people do that. And so it might look like there's a one incident that make people walk away. But in fact, there's always, you know, a lot, a lot, a lot of things that have happened and gone on over a long period of time. So that's one. And then I guess the other big myth to my mind is this idea that family estrangement is always a bad thing, that it's always something that we should be trying to fix. For some people, walking away from family is not just a good idea, it's a survival tactic. Obviously, we have a lot of biological and cultural imperatives that keep us connected to families, and there's good reasons for that, right? But sometimes it just isn't meant to work, and sometimes to protect yourself, you just got to walk away.

Cristen: Yeah. One thing that I was also curious about, as far as I was reading about you and Shadow Daughter is our cultural idea of love and that if you decide that you need to sever these kinds of close family bonds, that the problem must be with you and that you are not loving them enough and that love must be the answer. You know what I mean?

Harriet: Completely. Yeah. Isn't that part of our sort of Hallmark Disney, you know, idea of love in this culture, or at least the way we we like to talk about it publicly. Right. Like love conquers all. Blood is thicker than water. Like fill in the blank. There's so many of those platitudes. Sometimes, though, I would argue that sometimes love is walking away, you know, and that you can love someone. And a lot of the people I've talked to about this say, I love my family, but I can't, you know, be in contact with them. So, yeah, it all depends on what we mean by love. You know, does love mean being a doormat? Does love mean putting everyone else's interests before yours? Does love mean, you know, like in my case, every interaction I had with my family over a long, long period of many years would - would make me feel literally sick, anxious, depressed, you know, get in bed and not be able to get out for a week kind of thing. And at a certain point, you're like, hmm, I know that I'm still connected to them and I have feelings about them, but I can't really keep going through this. Yeah, we have messed up ideas of love, don't we?

Cristen: Yeah. I also wonder why do you think that culturally we are way more comfortable acknowledging, like divorce, break ups, like family dysfunction, those things happen. So why is this, though, still so shrouded in silence, it seems like?

Harriet: I think it's because it violates these extremely primal taboos that we have. You know, like the - the sanctity of the family, if you want to use that term, like the sort of family as the emotional and literal building block of our culture. If that gets threatened, that threatens a lot of things that are built on that. So there's these like strong biological imperatives to stay connected with your family. And there's a lot of logistical and practical reasons, too. Right. So when you when there is an estrangement, all kinds of stuff falls apart around it, everything from how do you celebrate holidays and sort of, you know, landmarks, both happy and sad and then, you know, ranging up to like, who's going to take care of mom and dad when they're old and sick if you're estranged. So there's all these sort of cultural functions that the family serves and estrangement breaks that. So there's that. And then I also think there's this weight of public opinion that's like if you're - if you walk away from your family, what does that mean about me and my family? Like, there's this level on which it seems really, really threatening to everyone else. And I am guessing that does come from that sort of those cultural and biological imperatives. You know, that that's - that's the way that we are designed to keep these relationships intact, even when they're really challenging.

Caroline: Is reconciliation ever the goal of estrangement?

Harriet: Well I think it's always the goal to some people, right? I think there's a lot of good reasons for families to forgive each other and be able to go forward and stay connected. It's just that it's not always possible. But I think reconciliation is the assumption in our culture. Just like - like family togetherness is the assumption and OK, if you have some problems, you need to work them out. it's like this cavalcade of platitudes that comes at you when you're in that situation, like why can't you just get along with your mother or you only have one mother. You're going to regret it, you know, or how will you feel when she dies? Like, there's all these interesting ways that pressure is brought to bear. Like boy, if I had a nickel for every time someone said to me, why can't you just get along with your mother? Like I'd be a freakin millionaire. I could run for president. But anyway.

Caroline: Please do.

Cristen: “Stop asking me to get along with my mother” is something Caroline I’d love to see sewn on a pillow.

Caroline: We’re gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, Harriet’s one regret about breaking up with her mother. Plus, why daughters bear the brunt of parental estrangement.

Cristen: Stick around.

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Harriet: I do remember somewhere in childhood becoming aware that like other people talked about their mothers in a way that seemed very weird to me. Like this idea that who would go to your mother for comfort? Just seemed bizarre to me. Which, you know, as I say that out loud sounds very telling. And it is. But yeah, there was this idea that, like, why would you ever go to your mother for comforting? That's just not how it works.

Cristen: We’re back with Harriet Brown.

Harriet: I don't ever remember feeling loved by my mother, which is. You know, as I say that I now want to add in a rush, that's a horrible thing to say about your mother, which is, you know, the social part of me, like acknowledging that this goes against so many taboos. But, you know, we never had a good relationship. I don't ever remember feeling like safe or loved or seen by her in some fundamental way. I never felt like she liked me like the person I was. I mean, literally, I can't remember a time when I didn't feel it.

Caroline: For Harriet, the way her Mom treated her kept her in a constant state of cognitive dissonance — that uneasy feeling as if your brain can’t quite process what’s actually happening ... like when someone’s words don’t match up with their actions.

Harriet: My mother would say constantly, “I love you so much. Oh, I just love you, love you, love you. You know, all I ever wanted was to love you.” Like she was all about the love in her talking. But I used to wonder, like, why don't I feel loved by her? And it took me such a long time to be able to sort of step back enough to say, “oh, it's because she did X or Y, like these things don't actually match up with what she's saying.” And I think it's just because as a kid, you - it's so hard to to think critically about your own parents. I mean, you know, I felt like I was so old before I was able to separate what people say from what they do. I think it's still something I struggle with, honestly, because, you know, I was just so used to hearing what my mother said and - and sort of taking that as the gospel and suppressing my own observations of what was actually happening, not trusting it.

Caroline: Harriet and her mom fought regularly, and it’s not like she grew out of that dynamic as she got older. Even an innocuous email or text from her mom could send Harriet spiraling.

Cristen: And sometimes, the animosity was in-your-face obvious.

Caroline: In your book, you write about the night before your grandmother's funeral. Can you walk us through what happened?

Harriet: Yeah, so my grandmother died when I was I mean, I was old, I was 30, I was a grown-up, but she she was so much like a mother to me, you know, and we didn't really see it coming even though she'd been sick. So it was this kind of shocking thing. The family had gathered at my parents house in New Jersey the night before the funeral and people were sitting around telling stories. And, there was a lot of, you know, just warm feeling. And along with the grieving and, you know. I noticed my mother kind of holding herself separate from it in a way. She was, you know, serving people, food and everything and. And then at one point I went down into the basement to look for some old pictures of my grandmother for this like board we were going to make for the funeral. And I just sat down there and was just like howling and crying and just feeling terribly sad. And my mother came downstairs and I thought for a minute, like, she was going to comfort me. And she's and this is kind of an example of that cognitive dissonance. So she sits down next to me. She puts her face really close to mine. And she says, you know, basically, “You don't have your grandmother here to hold your hand anymore. Now you're gonna have to deal with me.” And she just says it like that. And then she gets up and walks upstairs, you know? And then I'm like. And that's right. You know, that cognitive dissonance like, wait, what just happened? Like, she acted like she was comforting me. But that's not actually what she did and that's not actually what she said. And I came to understand a little bit more that she was a very damaged person. And I came to be able to feel some compassion for her as that damaged person. But she had the capacity to be truly vicious. So that was kind of a problem.

Cristen: Before cutting her mom off entirely, Harriet took a low-contact approach. She tried distancing herself, like only communicating via email for a few months. And when the tensions would ease, she’d get hopeful and try to reconcile.

Caroline: But once back in regular contact, the relationship would implode, and the cycle would start all over again. Their boundaries were just always in flux.

Harriet: Kristina Scharp, the researcher, calls it like a period of chaotic dissociation where you're kind of like flailing around and bouncing between, like trying to make things work and then, you know, huffing off when things don't work and being upset. And there's a lot of drama and there's a lot of chaos. And then you kind of just hit this point where you're like, I can't - I can't live with this anymore.

Caroline: Estrangement usually involves a “last straw” moment, the breaking point where you can’t take anymore and decide to go no-contact for good. And to be clear, it’s not an all-of-a-sudden snap judgment.

Cristen: Yeah, the last straw generally happens after you’ve spent years trying to make the relationship work. For Harriet, that moment arrived when she was 50 and had two daughters of her own.

Harriet: It came pretty late, you know, after decades of this kind of back and forth. But the situation was my older daughter had been very ill with anorexia as a young teenager and then had sort of recovered. But when she was 18, she had a relapse. And that's that was the sort of situation that my husband and I were dealing with. It was very scary. It was very serious. It was, you know, very distressing, obviously. And during this time, my mother and I were not like in close contact. We weren't talking much, but she started emailing me and emails, sending me these emails that said, like, remember, you have a family, you know, we're here to help you, like, lean on us for support. Like, she clearly wanted to be involved in some way. You know, hadn't leaned on her in any way in decades, so. But, you know, as happened a lot in our relationship, I thought, well, maybe this is the opportunity. You know, maybe this is the time that will be different. Maybe she won't — you know, like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown — maybe that won't happen this time. Maybe she really wants to help. And she's telling me that. And if I - if I reject that, then then this is my fault. You know, so I should try.

Caroline: So Harriet wrote her mom back, and was like you know I could use your help with something. She asked her mom to put together a list of high-calorie recipes, thinking, if she does it, great. If not, at least I tried. No big deal.

Harriet: And literally, like within half an hour, I got an email back from her, and the subject line was like some things I've been meaning to tell you. Yeah. You never want to open that email. And the email basically said, “I've been holding on to these things. But I feel that it wouldn't be fair to you to not share with you exactly what I think,” which was so much my mother's M.O. over the years. And basically what she said was, “Don't you think it's interesting that your daughter is sick, that she does not like her own body, and yet you are a writer and you know, you write and research about body image and weight?” Like, don't you think it's interesting? Like, don't you think there's a connection there?” And then she it kind of went on to say, like, “No one else will say this to you because they're all afraid of you, because you are a formidable woman, my dear.” I remember that phrase very distinctly. But, you know, “I'm the only one who will tell you this because I love you. But I think you should look at this” — like basically she was saying this is your fault. It's your fault that your daughter is sick. And, you know, you should take some ownership of this. And I literally just heard this like cracking sound. I thought I was hallucinating. I mean, I really thought I was losing my mind. And it was like - like a crack of thunder. And it was just this moment. And I I was like, you know what? There is nothing left in me at all that wants anything to do with her. This is it. It was just like she had died and was dead. And I felt nothing. And - and that was the end. That was the end of our relationship. I wrote her back and said, we're done. And that was it. You know and people often said like, well, did you have any regrets? And honestly, my only regret is I didn't do that like 30 years earlier and save us all like so much grief and angst because nothing ever got better, nothing changed. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't.

Cristen: Did anything surprise you about how you felt or your experience once you went no contact, once you made that decision?

Harriet: I think I was surprised by what a relief it was because I'd certainly gone for months in the past, not speaking to her, but it had never had that sense of permanence and finality. And, you know, my mother did die three years later, but she was young when she died. She was 76 and there was no expectation that, you know, her life was coming to an end or anything. So I anticipated 20 more years of her being alive and us not being in touch. But it was just like, wow, this is, I wish I really wish I had done this so much earlier because it just it took like this massive level of drama just right out of my life. I don't have to feel anxious when the phone rings. I don't have to worry. I don't have to lose sleep. I don't have to, you know, have panic attacks for days at a time. I'm just I know that I'm. I'm. I felt like I was safe from her for the first time. And that made me realize how unsafe I had felt for my entire life. Even though on the surface that was ridiculous, right? I was like long been an adult, have my own kids. You know, there was nothing she could do to me. But I still felt very threatened by her. So so, yeah, it was a feeling of safety and relief.

Cristen: Harriet felt so safe in her decision that when her mother died, she didn't attend the funeral. She knew she'd catch hell from some family members — and she did — but going would’ve been an act, and Harriet had retired from that performance.

Caroline: Culturally, that is such a violation of the dutiful daughter role … and the limited research there is suggests that gender does seem to play some role in estrangement. One of the most-cited studies, from 2015, found that more adult children were estranged from their mothers, instead of their fathers. And more parents said they were estranged from daughters than from sons.

Cristen: And just as in Harriet's case, when it comes to maternal estrangement, it’s more likely to be off and on, rather than cut and dry.

Caroline: Yeah, I mean that pressure to stay connected to the family we’re born into is super intense, not to mention the expectation of maintaining a tight mother-daughter bond. Like, only a supposedly “bad daughter” would cut herself off from her mother

Harriet: It's a very gendered issue. Right. And so. In my research, I was able to talk to a couple of guys, who estranged from their families and they did not. First of all, they did not have anywhere near the level of angst about it as any of the women that I talked to or myself. So I think, you know, as women, we are socialized to be the glue that holds families and other cultural groups together. We're supposed to be the fixers, we’re supposed to be the peacemakers. Also, this sense of our identities as loving and forgiving and, you know, conciliatory. That's all so important in the way that we are raised to think of ourselves and that and what what culture expects from us. So when you make the decision to estrange from your family, you're violating all that in addition to violating all of the sort of norms around family should be together. So like the guys that I interviewed there was much more this air of like, look, this is what happened. And I just had to do it. You know, and that's just kind of how it is. Whereas I don't know a single woman who feels that way. And I know for myself, like in a decades long estrangement from my mother and therefore from other people in the family. I don't even know how many thousands of hours I spent, like in self-recrimination and self-doubt and feeling like there was something deeply wrong with me because I couldn't maintain this relationship with my mother. So I think it's a hugely gendered thing. And I think that that's both, you know, that that's that's cultural, right? That's what we expect of ourselves and what everyone expects of us.

Cristen: Caroline, I’d also say that white American culture idealizes Gilmore Girls-level closeness. But for first-generation daughters like our next guest Jackie, that kind of maternal intimacy can feel especially foreign.

Caroline: And we’re gonna find out why … after a quick break.

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Jackie: When I moved away from home and didn't go back for the holidays or anything, I felt like I was a terrible person because, like, I was - I was failing to meet these expectations. I wasn't being like a good Asian daughter.

Cristen: We're back with Jackie Sojico, a producer who works at our podcast network Stitcher out in San Francisco. She's been estranged from her mom for the past three years. And even though Jackie and Harriet come from very different families, similar dynamics and dysfunctions led to their eventual estrangements …

Jackie: So growing up, my relationship with my parents was pretty difficult. We had a really hard time talking. And like there weren't a ton of boundaries with my parents. So, like, I felt like it was really hard to like saying no to them with like what they expected from me.

Caroline: Jackie grew up in the South, with her Filipino mom and Chinese dad, as well as her little brother.

Jackie: So I was raised to be very obedient and, quiet. I was expected to take care of everyone in my family. And also my parents immigrated here. So I'm a first generation immigrant, I think. And so I was expected to kind of like not exactly translate but handle some stuff like that they didn't know how to do or like which was just different for them. So, I like I took on a lot of like responsibility of like running the household at a like pretty young age.

Cristen: Jackie’s Mom worked a lot so she often wasn’t home for long stretches at a time. Her brother has down syndrome, and Jackie was expected to help parent not only him, but also to some extent her Dad, who'd had a stroke and couldn't work.

Jackie: My dad had kind of a really bad temper, and so like whenever he got mad at me, my mom wasn't around to like soothe me or like sort of like be there to like kind of buffer that. .. I ended up having to, like, comfort myself a lot in with like and like deal with my dad and like have these major fights with him. And like there wasn't really anyone I could talk to about it. So it was kind of just like me and I had to like learn how to do that. And it turns out that that's hard. I like still in like figuring out how to, like, regulate emotions now as like a 30 year old.

Cristen: When Jackie was 18, she left for college. She kept her visits home to a minimum and talked to her parents on the phone every once in a while. She sustained this low-contact situation for years, which was harder than it probably sounds.

Jackie: Yeah like ever since I left home, I felt like I've been a bad daughter. And I've spent I spent a long time thinking about like whether that's true or not. I think some of it also like I my parents put like a lot of expectation on me to be like a very specific kind of daughter. And I think some of that has to do with like the fact that I'm Chinese and Filipino and there's like a lot of expectation of like family, like piety and loyalty and like you are always there to take care of your parents forever kind of thing. And like, I didn't know, like, how else to be an Asian. A good Asian daughter or like a good daughter or a good person because those were the things that they taught me, made me a good person. And I think it wasn't until. Probably like my late 20s, like I started feeling like this is. I'm not a bad person. Like, I just have like a different. I need to have a different kind of relationship with my family.

Caroline: Three years ago, Jackie had her own “last straw” moment. Her Mom went to the Philippines for a few weeks, leaving her Dad alone at home - without a caregiver.

Cristen: Jackie found out when one of her parents’ neighbors — on the opposite coast from Jackie's home in California — emailed her, worried about her Dad. Jackie was furious with her mom

Jackie: And it was we had like a a fight about whether it was my responsibility to come home basically in like, I think I was like, mad that, like, she expected me to go so like, drop everything and come home. So I blocked her number but then I felt guilty about it for a couple years. And then I started going to therapy. And when I explained what had happened, she was like, have you ever considered using the word estrangement for what your relationship is with your parents? And I hadn't.

Cristen: And do you remember how that made you feel in that moment?

Jackie: Yes, I cried because I think it felt right. But it also felt really scary because I think in my head I was like estrangement is like a huge step that you take when you, like, totally cut off your family or or or and like in my. It was like a really dramatic thing the way I'd been thinking about it. So I was like relieved and terrified that she called it that first. And then I felt like more comfortable with it because we talked and we were I was talking with her about it. And she was saying, like, it doesn't have to be permanent. Like, you could be like estranged right now. And maybe in a few years you decide maybe you do want to try getting in contact again. But like you, it doesn't have to be a permanent thing. Like that felt comfortable and and like good like it felt nice to be in control a little bit.

Cristen: Jackie went on to marry her college sweetheart and feels like a part of his family. But when she and her husband began talking about having kids of their own, Jackie’s estrangement loomed large.

Jackie: When I was a kid, I I was like, I expected to have kids. Like, I expected I would become a parent. But as I got older, I got increasingly nervous about what kind of parent I would be because like I had such a difficult relationship with my parents, I was estranged from them and like, I was terrified of, like, becoming my parents. And so for a really long time, I was I simultaneously wanted to have kids, but also didn't because I thought I would be like a really bad parent. And it wasn't until I was like probably like a year or two ago that I was like, maybe I won't be a bad parent. But only maybe because like through the whole pregnancy, I was like, I think I might actually like I spent the whole pregnancy being like, what if I'm still like that? Like, it was like a fear that was like topmost of my mind, like the entire time.

Caroline: So, Jackie’s dad died at the end of 2019, and she considered not telling her mom about the pregnancy. But, she eventually decided to sort of split the difference and fill her in over email.

Jackie: So we emailed back and forth about it for a little bit. She wanted to come out for the birth and I did not want that. I ended up telling her I didn't want her to come out. And I also was like I actually would also like to not be in contact right now. And I told her that I was like talking to a therapist and that I wanted to like not. Yeah, I just want I didn't want to be in regular contact because, like, I was working through some stuff, which I think was the first time I ever told her about any - any of the problems that I was having or like acknowledging the fact that we had a difficult relationship.

Caroline: How did she respond?

Jackie: She like didn't acknowledge it. She was like, oh, OK. She acknowledged the thing about like not wanting me, not wanting her to come out. And then she was like, Cool about therapy, bye. It's great. Awesome. But also like I think it was the first time either of us had ever directly acknowledged it. And so, like, maybe she just like wasn't really ready to talk about it, which is fair because like it took me until I was like 32. It also felt like very characteristic of like the way the whole way. We like don't talk about difficult things, essentially. So it wasn't totally unexpected. It was a little like weird and like, I still think about it, obviously, but. Yeah.

Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I think it's OK to say that that's a little weird.

Jackie: Thanks. Yeah. It was like very. After it happened, I was like, is this weird or not weird? And I had to like ask other people because like, I was so bad at judging whether or not this was like a normal or not-normal thing.

Cristen: Last year, Jackie gave birth to her baby, Doris. Since Doris's father is white, and her Asian grandmother isn’t in the picture, Jackie's also been building a new branch of the family tree

Jackie: I have a really close friend from college who is Chinese-American, and I think like, one, knowing him and knowing this person who's like a really close friend of mine and having him be a part of her life. But also like we want to make sure she like we like live in a place where she can see people who look like her, even if they're not related to her. But like, we want to live in a community where, like, that's a diverse community. But also like there, Asian people here. Like, I grew up in a really white part of the country. And it sucked for me because, like, I didn't really see other Asian kids. I'm really close with my in-laws and like they and they're great. But like, I'm really mindful of the fact that, like, I want to make sure that she grows up around people who who look like her and who like are also like who don't just reflect like the white side of her family, basically, who I love, but also like I like I want to make sure she feels like fully seen.

Caroline: Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? That feeling, that desire like to be seen, to have her actually grow up seeing other Asian people?

Jackie: Yeah, like I - I think like some of it is like I think I have a lot of hang ups about like growing up as one of the few Asian kids where I was. I have a lot of hangups about like I don't speak Chinese or Tagalog. And I don't. I have like a really like tenuous connection with, like, my own family's culture. I guess I always used to feel like I didn't quite belong. I wasn't like totally Asian enough. And I I clearly wasn't white. So, like, where where did I belong? And I like I worry about my kid feeling that way, too. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like being in the Bay Area is like nice because there are a lot of people who look like her, and there's like a huge like Chinese and Filipino community here that like we can be a part of and that she can like see some of herself in also and like learn about like, I don't know, like I never learned about like the Asian immigrant history. So, like, there's a part of me that, like, wants to have her feel connected to that. Like, even if she doesn't know my family, like that she feels like connected to like at least like the Asian-American community here like in general. Well, like, I feel like I want to like be able to give her that at least even if she can't have a connection to like her immediate family — or my immediate family.

Cristen: Once you had your daughter, did those feelings or have those feelings and those fears sort of faded at all?

Jackie: Yeah, they have. I realized I didn't have expectations the way that like my my parents did with me and like I thought. I think I realized that I was thinking about her really differently than what I was always afraid of. Like I kind of like saw the version of myself that I was afraid of being, and I saw myself like being a parent with her as a newborn and was like, oh, these are not the same person. I'm not doing that.

Cristen: What kind of daughter do you hope to raise yours to be?

Jackie: I hope that. I hope that she's like feels taken care of and like, safe. And like that she's independent and like can like it feels like she doesn't have to be responsible for, like my happiness, that she's just like an independent, her own person. I want to be her own person who like likes what she likes and like that, I respect her for like being who she is and - and doing what she wants. And that I'm I'm like genuinely happy for like whatever she wants to do. Like whoever she turns out to be. Yeah. I'm like really excited to see, like who she becomes and like yeah, I'm really sappy about it.

Caroline: Oh, you're her mom. I think it's allowed.

Jackie: I know.

Cristen: OK unladies … Does the estrangement spectrum ring familiar to you? Have you had to cut off contact with a parent? Email us at hello@unladylike.co, find us on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and jump into the thread for this episode.

Caroline: Visit unladylike.co to find this episode’s sources and transcript. While you’re there, sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly dose of desperately needed actually good news

Cristen: A huge, special thanks to all y’all who’ve signed up to support us on Patreon. If you want ad-free Extra Unladylike episodes, head over to patreon.com/unladylikemedia and subscribe.

Caroline: Nora Ritchie is the producer of Unladylike. Abigail Keel is our senior producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford. Executive producers are Chris Bannon, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Cristen: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Cristen: Next week…

Tembe Denton-Hurst: I call it addictive because I legitimately cannot function without them. Like I had my nails off or all of a day. And I was like, this is the ghetto-est shit I've ever experienced in my whole entire life. Never again will I ever, ever, ever do this to myself like I was. I cannot ever, ever, ever go without my nails. Like, I just. They are my everything.

Caroline: We’re talking to Tembe Denton-Hurst about her love affair with acrylics and we’re going deep on the history of Vietnamese nail salons and the women who changed the nail industry. Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike so you don’t miss this episode. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get unladylike.