Transcript | Ep. 73: How to Tilt the Lens with Sinead Burke

[Stinger]

Sinead: I genuinely irritate people for a living. It is my job to ask questions and to provoke new ideas and really to continuously use the phrase "why?" Because most of the things that have been exclusive and inaccessible and inequitable have been designed and built that way. So it is my job to be like, OK, great. So how do we change that?

[Theme music]

Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to a BRAND NEW season of Unladylike, the show that finds out what happens when women break the rules. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. And y’all, we’ve got quite a season ahead of us … we’re gonna be talking about scammers … egg freezing … sobriety… quinceaneras — it’s gonna be a good one.

Caroline: And y’know, Cristen — this is also our first episode of 2020! So especially since it’s a new year AND a whole new decade, we wanted to get in the right headspace to get unladylike.

Cristen: Yeah we did — and that means talking with someone who embodies our motto of stay curious, build empathy, raise hell.

Caroline: And today’s guest — educator and rabble-rouser Sinead Burke — does just that.

[Clip from As Me]

Sinead: I’m a little person. I stand at 3 feet 5 inches tall. I’m a very proud disabled woman. But my independence is based on strangers’ kindness because I live in a world that was designed for you.

Cristen: That’s a clip from her podcast, As Me with Sinead, where she gets deep with pals like Dan Levy and Jamie Lee Curtis — a conversation I highly recommend, and y’all I am seriously jealous of her friendship with Dan Levy.

Caroline: Same. In the past few years, Sinead has gone from elementary school teacher and disability activist in Ireland to a worldwide design influencer who’s challenging the ableist status quo.

Cristen: Yeah, she’s really invested in busting up the status quo of the physical spaces we live and work in. But, she’s also focused on fashion — her passion since she was a kid.

Caroline: Whether she’s in front of the classroom or in the front row at a Gucci fashion show, Sinead is on a mission to “tilt the lens,” as she puts it, on what accessibility looks like and who it’s for.

Cristen: So today, she’s talking with us about navigating the world as a little person AND the importance of asking uncomfortable questions.

[Stinger]

Sinead: The phrase I use most is, “I have questions,” which everybody around me is like, “Good questions or bad questions?” And usually it's a mélange of the two. I'm like - I'm just - I'm - that curiosity that I have in me probably stemmed from not being considered in the way in which most of the world was designed and thought of or what society thought about me when they looked at me because I'm a physically disabled woman. And I think people's curiosity in me, be it either positive or perhaps tinging a maliciousness, gave me permission to develop a curiosity of my own.

Caroline: Sinead was born and raised in Dublin. She's the oldest — and shortest — of five siblings.

Sinead: I have achondroplasia, which is the most common form of dwarfism. Within the kind of spectrum of dwarfism, there's over 200 conditions. And I am the smallest of most of my friends with achondroplasia. Growing up, I was incredibly lucky that my dad is a little person, too. He also has achondroplasia. But 80 percent of little people are born to two average height parents. So most of my friends are the only one like them in their family.

Cristen: Well to understand better, can you walk us through what it’s like to both live with achondroplasia and just what it’s like in your body?

Sinead: In terms of living in my body, I forget that I have dwarfism for most of my day. I am not aware of the fact that I'm a little person because I don't see myself. Both physically and not being aware of my body. But most mirrors are out of my eye line, so it's actually like even in public spaces. I don't see what it is that I look like, and I'm not reminded until I can't reach something or until a person calls me a name or stares or points or laughs or takes a photograph of me. And I'm like, Ah, yes, they're doing that because I have dwarfism.

Cristen: Dwarfism is a pretty rare genetic condition. And when you’re under 4 feet tall like Sinead, that means the physical world and public spaces in particular are often built out of your reach.

Caroline: Right — everyday stuff like chairs, water fountains, ATMs ….

Sinead: You know, I go into a women's bathroom and I cannot reach the lock. And I have to do a whole number of tasks from trying to use my phone to putting my coat and my jacket on the floor in case somebody comes past and like I've left a lock undone and hopefully they see me and won't come into the cubicle or asking a stranger for help. And then going outside and not being able to reach the sink and to wash my hands or to dry my hands. And how, you know, the design of bathrooms, particularly public spaces, are not just about bathrooms. They are symbols of who gets to exist in the world.

Cristen: An estimated one BILLION people around the world live with disabilities. But Caroline, disability isn’t a monolith. And neither is accessibility, you know? Just because bathrooms might be wheelchair accessible doesn’t mean they’re Sinead accessible.

Caroline: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, we didn’t even realize our Unladylike podcast studio wasn’t Sinead-accessible until we began setting up the interview.

Cristen: Right, so her publicist asked us to provide footstools for the recording booth and the bathroom. And she just phrased it as a way to help Sinead be as independent as possible. We did, and the experience actually started a bigger conversation among the Unladylike team about who our recording studios are — and aren’t — made for.

Caroline: Well, so what does the term disabled mean to you? And how has your personal relationship and identification like with that term and the language evolved?

Sinead: It's really changed. You know, when I was much younger, I didn't identify with the language of disability at all. I thought that it was stigmatized. I thought that it was negative. I thought it made me feel less. And I used to just describe myself as Sinead. I'm just Sinead. And as I got a little bit older, I began to realize that, you know, when I was looking at building codes or if I couldn't reach something or if I didn't get a job based on strange questions that were asked in the interview, that there was no legislation, there was no protection of anything based on being just Sinead. My language then evolved to me being a person with a disability, that I first and foremost was a person, and actually, that's all you really needed to know. My disability was something that you could see, but not really something we should talk about. And I hadn't realized, but actually what I was doing was, again, pushing a negative space around my disability and saying that, you know, just see me as me. Which is great, but actually I wouldn't be me without my disability. And I have huge pride in having dwarfism. It has given me every opportunity and every space that I occupy now. I would be probably doing something far less interesting, but perhaps have a mortgage and a pension if I wasn't.

Cristen: So to kind of peel back another layer, how does disability and gender intersect from your point of view?

Sinead: Huge. My dad, as I said, is a little person, and we're both white, straight and cisgendered. But seeing how different people interact with us, even walking on the street is very different. You know, my dad will perhaps get some sort of harassment or comment based on his size. Whereas the commentary that I receive is always tinged with sexualization. And, you know, I've had instances where I have been in a nightclub. When I was 19 and 20. And, you know, men have stood in front of me and unzipped their fly in my face because they think it's funny and they think it adheres to a definition of masculinity that is just so bizarre. And it's, you know, being a little person and being somebody who could physically be lifted at any time, you are perhaps more vulnerable than many people. And being a woman within that, the harassment is often more sexualized. And yeah, I think there's so much complexity in being a woman and living in this body. But, I pass through the world easier than perhaps a woman of color would in this body or a trans person would in this body. So there's a huge amount of privilege still attached to my existence. But yeah, there's moments when it's hard, when you're just like, you know, maybe I'll just live a quieter life. Maybe I'll just do things in an easier way.

Caroline: Well, you definitely don't live a quiet life, Sinead.

Sinead: Sadly, not for everybody else. I enjoy life. I enjoy it not being quiet.

Caroline: Sinead has never been quiet — and that’s a trait she really picked up from her parents. Like, when she was a kid, starting school, there weren’t uniforms available in her size, and her parents weren’t sure what doctors she should see to manage her achondroplasia.

Sinead: My mom said, you know, we cannot be the only family where there is a little person and looking to enroll in these services, like there has to be more than us. And what happens when we bring these people together?

Caroline: So in 1998, her parents founded the Little People of Ireland as a resource for families across the country. And when Sinead got older, she took an active role alongside them.

Sinead: Parents were coming to my mum and dad. Parents of little people, and they were saying, My child is getting a really tough time in the playground. The teacher doesn't know what to say. Feels like they don't have the language. My child doesn't really want to step outside of themselves and have to teach the people that they're going to be in school with for 12 years. Is there anything you can think of? Anything you can do? My parents, in their infinite wisdom, was like, Sinead is a teacher and they sent me on trains and buses that were very inaccessible around Ireland to go into these classrooms.

Cristen: Growing up, Sinead had always wanted to become a teacher — either that, or join the Spice Girls. She would make her younger siblings play this game called Club, in which she would essentially make up workbooks and lesson plans and make them pretend to be her students - which is so cute Caroline!

Caroline: When Sinead actually did grow up and pursue elementary school teaching and an education role with the Little People of Ireland, some folks were initially skeptical. They thought that Sinead couldn’t manage a classroom of students who were physically larger than her. But the way she saw it, if she treated her students with respect and empathy, that’s how they’d treat her in return.

Sinead: The first question I would ask students is where have you seen someone who looks like me, whether that was in the local supermarket or watching Game of Thrones or kind of what was their lived experience of different types of people. And I think the baseline of that advocacy was a real understanding that I didn't choose to be a little person. But we each choose how we behave and act. And there is no real definition of normality. We all experience challenges in lots of different ways.

Caroline: Well, so then what does working with children teach you about getting your point across to fellow adults?

Sinead: Everything. What children taught me is the importance of asking the questions to the answers that we don't know and that we're afraid to ask. And you know whether that’s something as simple as walking into a group of 4-year-olds. And the first question that they ask me is, Why are you so small? And I'm like, well, why are you so big? And they say, I don't know, I was born like this. I'd say, so was I. And they're like great. But actually, as adults, we don't ask those questions because we fear causing offense. And actually, we make it about ourselves. So instead of sitting within that discomfort and actually using it as a tool to educate ourselves about different types of people, we just sit within our echo chambers and further isolate ourselves from anybody who's different. And children teach me constantly the importance of being vulnerable and going, hey, I don't understand this. Can you tell me more? Great. Thanks.

Cristen: Well, this raises a - a theme in a lot of your work, which is empathy. And what does empathy mean to you, and how do you think that we cultivate it?

Sinead: I think for me, empathy is about being open to realizing the complexity of people, and realizing that there is no one set definition of what it is to exist within this world. And I think from a disability perspective, our definition of empathy and disability has been quite questionable historically. You know, we think that empathy is putting a blindfold over our eyes and eating dinner and all of a sudden we're empathetic and understand what it's like to live as somebody who has a visual impairment. And that's not true, nor is it fair. Or that if you use a wheelchair for one day around New York City, you have this visceral understanding of what accessibility is and what it's like to live as somebody who is a wheelchair user. And that's also not true. For me, the kind of best definition of how we can cultivate empathy is by bringing those individuals into the rooms where decisions are made and actually listening to their experience and bringing in their expertise and shaping policies and work around that and not just taking inspiration from them, and we leave the room feeling a bit better and feeling a bit more sympathetic to their cause, but actually understanding that this work and these people have value and that it's important that they are considered as such and not just individuals brought in for U.N. Day for people with disabilities or International Women's Day to be coming in and give us a bit of a spiel about their life. And then we go off going, great, thanks. I feel better about me.

Cristen: After the break, Sinead gets in the room with the who’s of the fashion world.

Caroline: — And graces a September cover of British Vogue!

Cristen: Strike a pose and stick around

[Midroll ad 1]

Sinead: I got to go to the Met Gala this year, which is a ridiculous sentence to be able to say, and particularly being the first-ever little person to get to go, I was vomiting the morning before it because I was so nervous. it felt like such a big deal because it was the first, and it felt like the world would be watching. And I rang my dad and I just said, Dad, I - I don't think I can go, like it just feels too much. He was like, Sinead, it's a party in a museum. You’ll be fine.

Caroline: We’re back with Sinead Burke, who was… understandably nervous about going to one of the fashion industry’s biggest nights in New York.

Cristen: But listeners might be wondering Caroline … HOW did Sinead end UP at the Met Gala? Well, her path to iconic red carpet started with a 2017 TED talk called Why Design Should Include Everyone. Here she is onstage:

[TED Talk clip]

Sinead: Design greatly impacts upon people’s lives. All lives. Design is a way we can feel included in the world. But it also a way we can uphold a person’s dignity and their human rights. Design can also inflict vulnerability on a group whose needs aren’t considered. So today, I want your perceptions challenged. Who are we not designing for? How can we amplify their voices and their experiences? What is the next step?

Cristen: The TED talk went viral, and practically overnight, it changed Sinead’s life. She was getting calls from movers and shakers in the fashion world who wanted to collaborate. And it also opened the door for her to speak at the World Economic Forum in Davos, connecting her to even more design gatekeepers.

Caroline: Within the span of a few months, Sinead had an international platform.

Cristen: Yeah, so in that TED talk, Sinead addresses both structural and fashion design. She gives the example of basically having to lifehack public bathrooms, which we heard about earlier. And she also talked about clothes. Because to find fashion that fits her body, Sinead was pretty much relegated to the children’s department.

Caroline: Though not for much longer. After her TED Talk, Sinead was approached by the luxury fashion house Burberry. They were like, hey girl - wassup. We wanna dress you. And Sinead was like, uh, yeah! Sinead got to select clothes from their collection, and then they were re-tailored specifically for her measurements. She walked out of there with a whole Burberry wardrobe!

Cristen: And since then, she’s only attracted more fans in the fashion world. Cut back to 2019, and not only did Sinead become the first little person to attend the Met Gala — and in a custom Gucci dress, no less — she was also the first little person to grace the cover of British Vogue.

Caroline: And as important as those firsts are, Sinead’s more concerned with not being the last.

Sinead: I'm always interested in kind of questions such as who's not in the room and how do we bring those individuals forth. And, you know, if you look at fashion as a case study, for example, you know it was one of the few in which we - everybody participated because we all have a legal obligation to wear clothes. And if it was something that we all had to participate in, why wasn't it stepping up and catering to us? Why wasn't it thinking of different types of people as it was creating product or hiring different types of people?

Caroline: Fashion captivated Sinead from a young age precisely because of how inaccessible it felt.

Sinead: And I remember picking up a pair of high heels and my sisters saying to me, Sinead, they won't fit you. And I looked at her like she was bananas and I said, What? Of course they will. She was like, no, no, they won't. Like, you need to go to the kids’ section. And all that was available at the kids section was like sneakers that lit up and horrible shoes that your mother forced you to wear to school that you would never put on Instagram. And I felt left out. So why could they participate and I couldn't? And it felt unjust.

Cristen: Now, part of Sinead’s life these days is attending fancy events that are chock full of the who’s who of the fashion industry. And whenever she gets the chance, she just up and asks her fashion heroes questions about accessibility — and isn’t shy about making bold requests.

Caroline: Yeah, like this one time at an event in Milan in 2018, she was seated next to Paul Andrew, the creative director of Ferragamo

Sinead: And for those who perhaps aren't familiar with the brand, Ferragamo and Salvatore Ferragamo began his career in Hollywood, making custom shoes for Greta Garbo, Marilyn Monroe, and then went back to Italy, to his hometown in Florence, and began this company with this real understanding and realization that people needed custom shoes, that feet were not designed in one way.

Cristen: Sinead was a longtime Ferragamo fan and was kinda freaking out. And true to her claim of irritating people for a living, she decided to shoot her shot with the creative director.

Sinead: I said to him, You should make custom shoes for little people. And I laughed as if to be like, if he thinks this is a bad idea, I'm going to pretend that I also thought it was a bad idea. He was like, yeah, like, that's a good idea. Like, you should come to Florence. I was like, OK. And I did. And I went and I got my feet measured, and it was the most incredible experience to be able to have high heels for the first time in my life and more even more than that, boots, because I'm a size 13 in the children's department. And whatever about my foot being able to fit within the sole. My calf is not the same measurement as a childs. So the boots just don't work and they go up. So to be able to have a pair of boots with jeans is just revolutionary. And then, you know, working with Ferragamo to think on how can we expand beyond this? How can it be more than me? And they came to the Little People of Ireland conference this year, and they presented all of our members and they measured everybody's feet to see if we can come up with some sort of new design, a new patent, a new measurement to provide a service for this community.

Caroline: What did your parents say when the Ferragamo folks wanted to team up with their organization?

Sinead: Who? Ferragamo, mom and da.. That's right. And they make shoes? Yeah. Mom. They're like, dad, they're a billion dollar company. Lovely. And they're still family owned, which is quite unique in fashion. Right. Lovely. Can I get shoes? I don't. I don't think. Do you want shoes? No, actually I don't. And it was interesting. You know, they came and they did this amazing presentation, and they kind of showed the various people who've worn their shoes. Everybody in the audience was like Gigi Hadid have worn these shoes, and they're making shoes for little people. I'm in, like I am in.

Caroline: Sinead clearly has no problem walking right up to powerful people — including Anna Wintour, Cate Blanchett, OPRAH …

Cristen: But Caroline, it’s not just about the approach. Sinead has a way of getting people to listen to her AND to care about what she’s talking about. And I really think it’s a testament to what a natural teacher she is — she’s so full of knowledge, she’s so passionate, she’s genuinely curious about this stuff, but she doesn’t talk down to you.

Caroline: And there’s a much bigger reason why Sinead is so passionate about teaching the Anna Wintours of the world. If those tastemakers start designing for disability and titling their lens, then others will follow their lead.

Sinead: I think if I could tell my younger self what my wardrobe looks like now, she wouldn't believe it.

Cristen: So what does your wardrobe look like now?

Sinead: It's quite good.

Cristen: Tell the listeners, all the details.

Sinead: There are two custom tailored Gucci tuxedos, one in a monogram print that probably most people are familiar with on the bags as like a canvas. And there's another one that's all black. There is three Prada silk dresses. There is a Balenciaga silk blouse that I'm mad about. There is two Christopher Cain dresses well, there were two. One is on exhibition at the minute in Sweden. There is my Met Gala dresses on exhibition in Florence. It's - it's absolutely obscene.

Cristen: It's I love it. I love that. You know, regular folks like Caroline and me are maybe like, oh, well, I have this - this one nice piece, but it's at the dry cleaner. You, however, like, well I have this one nice piece. It's currently on exhibit.

Sinead: For me, you know, it's always about creating opportunities and spaces for something to be about more than me, because the solution is only that I get a beautiful dress. Great. The solution hasn't been solved. It's actually just I've been made an example of in that way, which is great, but the idea that some of the clothes that have been made for me specifically by particularly high end luxury designers can be an opportunity for education, not just for the world, but, you know, so often someone who looks like me. Our bodies haven't been represented in institutions, be it museums, be it galleries. And if they are, they have been kind of sensationalized by with no agency of people who look like us. And the idea that a dress of mine gets to be in a museum that is an institution, like what happens when somebody who looks like me walks through that place, not knowing that that's what they're going to see. Like, what do they imagine is in their future? What do they imagine is possible for them?

Cristen: Being asked to exhibit one of her dresses in a museum became yet another teaching opportunity for Sinead.

Caroline: Right. So in 2019, the Museum of Scotland was putting together an exhibit about diversity in fashion. Sinead got an email asking if the exhibit could borrow something from her wardrobe.

Sinead: And I was like, Yes, please. Of course. And we began this dialogue. Then I said, Well, how are you displaying my dress? And they said, Oh, we're gonna hang it from the ceiling. Right. How are you displaying everything else? They’re like, Oh, we have mannequins. I said, right. So how do we get a mannequin made? They said, I don't know. Let us look into that. Now, I should know better because it's difficult asking those questions if you're not prepared for actually the result of what might happen. And what did happen was me going to London on four occasions to get my physical body cast so that a mannequin could be made. The legs alone took four hours, and the torso took another three hours and then the arms took two hours.But actually, the result was this incredible object that has never been designed before because nobody just considered it.

Cristen: That groundbreaking mannequin and her couture wardrobe are prime examples of why It’s not enough to design for people with disabilities. It’s gotta happen with them.

Sinead: In order to change these systems, we actually need different types of people who think and see the world and experience the world in different ways. But how do we go about that? But actually, as an individual, I've been so used to being publicly vulnerable in terms of asking for assistance in using the bathroom or getting out of an Uber or getting into an Uber, that it has cultivated this vulnerability in me that I see as a strength and almost something that's kind of weaponized and used to bring people together. And by bringing that into institutions that have particularly been quite male and perhaps even misogynistic in their lens of things, it's like how do we redesign spaces for people to just be their whole selves, either in work or just in society as citizens? So I think by bringing in different perspectives, you allow this empathy and this vulnerability and this understanding that there's different existences, and that's valid and important and an opportunity to recreate creativity and innovation and profitability in organizations that have been run the same way forever

Cristen: The questions Sinead is asking in those rooms go beyond the clothes, too. They’re also about who is — and isn’t — graduating from fashion schools? Who gets the opportunities? Are company hiring practices disability-inclusive?

Caroline: So here’s the bigger question: What would a more accessible and inclusive world look like?

Cristen: We’ll find out, after the break.

[Midroll ad 2]

Sinead: I have these kind of four questions that guide me and they are: Number one: Does this fulfill my goals and dreams? Number two: Does this pay the rent? Number three: Does this give back? And number four: Does this bring other people with me? And every project that I do, be it voluntary or something that I'm paid to do, has to answer yes to two or more of those questions.

Cristen: We’re back with multi-hyphenate activist and style icon Sinead Burke. Also Sinead if you're listening, I'm totally stealing those four guiding questions

Caroline: And Cristen, it seems like she's been answering yes those questions ever since she started teaching primary school in Ireland, years before her TED Talk breakout.

Sinead: I think when I was in the classroom, I probably had this kind of very self-centered view on design and exclusion. I really thought that it was only me that was excluded because I couldn't reach the light switches, but actually teaching and particularly teaching in disadvantaged areas and poor areas. I realized that most people are excluded not just from education, but like from the world, because the world is designed by so few people.

Cristen: Seriously, y’all. It’s not an overstatement to say that the world was built for able-bodied, tall-ish men. There’s a reference book called Graphic Standards that’s basically the Bible for architectural design guidelines in the US. Consider that until the 1980s, its “Dimensions of the Human Figure” was just an average of white men’s measurements.

Caroline: Why am I not surprised?!

Cristen: I know, but seriously Caroline. Consider my lens tilted!

Caroline: So what is - what is a world with full accessibility like mean to you? What what would that look like?

Sinead: I think it's just a consciousness that it's not just about physical accessibility either. You know, obviously I talk a lot from my own particular standpoint, which is having a physical disability. But the consulting work that I do is looking at the spectrum of disability more broadly. And it's realizing that it's not just people who have been born disabled, but either of you, and I hope you don't, might leave the studio today and fall and all of a sudden be on crutches for six months. And how do you actually go about and do your job? Because it isn't just like the one in four people who are born disabled, but everybody. And it's looking at, you know, when you go into a retail space and it's dark and there is loud music — actually, if you have autism, you can't be in there. That's not a space for you. And for me, I think we need to relook at how we define accessibility and how we say to certain groups that you don't get to be here.

Cristen: Yeah, that kind of leads to our next question of what you think it will take for the engineers and the designers to really start not just thinking about accessibility, but really like creating and building a more accessible world.

Sinead: I think it'll take time. I think we're living in this very reactionary period where a lot of change is made based on the wave of public discourse. And I teach around this boundary of wanting change to happen today and tomorrow because I need it for my own independence. But actually understanding that true change, if it's going to be sustainable, and actually have a greater impact is going to take time. So I think time, resources, flexibility and an understanding that there is a risk to this. You know, all of the research and all of the advocacy says that this will work and that the disabled community has a spending power of one trillion U.S. dollars per year and that there is profitability within these margins if we do take these changes, but actually it requires a real vulnerability and risk to see if it happens. And actually if it doesn't work in the first six months or a year, do we just abandon it? Or do we realize that all of these things take time to actually embed? And I think it's also going to take disabled people and those who are allies and advocates along with them wanting to be part of this and feeling like it's something that they can participate in. But even more so, probably it's going to take the ordinary person caring about these issues. You know, we have seen such a huge rise of momentum around sustainability, which is so important. But actually, as we bring together this sustainability, evolvement, ensuring that accessibility is part of it. So many states here in the U.S. have banned plastic straws. Why? A lot of disabled people require plastic straws to drink their drinks independently. The alternative solutions do not function as well, but yet again, because we haven't been hearing these voices, we're just not part of it. So when we become concerned about issues or how many disabled advocates are you following on social media, how much a part of this is within your consciousness? And until the ordinary person and the ordinary consumer says that this is something we expect companies and governments to adhere to. What appetite is there for them to change?

Caroline: So, I mean, we've heard you describe yourself as bold. but you also seem just fearless. And we're wondering if that fully, totally rings true for you as well.

Sinead: I don't think I’m fear - like I think. I'm constantly, not worried and anxious, but there's definitely this sound bed of a voice in my head that's like, you gotta keep going, you know. So actually, it's not about being fearless, but it's like, this is my job. It's my job to be like, hey, that's not cool that you did that or hey, how can we work together to ensure that that doesn't happen again? Or actually, have you thought about this or yeah, it's great that you have different types of bodies and models on the runway. And I think that's really important. But actually, I had to sit in the photographer's pit for your show because I couldn't get up onto the chair. And I think it's not about being fearless. It's about standing for what it is I say I do.

Caroline: OK Sinead, this is a question you often ask your own guests on your podcast

Sinead: Go for it

Caroline: What gives you hope?

Sinead: What gives me hope is different types of people being given permission to tell stories. And I'm conscious that most of those people are white and most of those people are straight and most of those people are cis and able bodied. So there is still much change that's needed. What gives me hope is that more and more people are finding not just an opportunity, but the space and the time to use their voice to create difference. What gives me hope is that things are changing, even if it's only marginally, even if it's only one person who listens to this and thinks about something new for the first time, it gives me hope that that is happening anyway, because historically it hasn't. What gives me hope is that we have time to make a difference if we keep recycling.

[Music]

Caroline: Keep recycling … and let’s all follow Sinead’s lead with our motto: stay curious, build empathy and raise hell. Tell us your thoughts… you can email us hello@unladylike.co, hit us up on social @unladylikemedia or join our private facebook group and find the thread for this episode.

Cristen: Head over to our site, unladylike.co to find this episode’s sources AND transcript. While you’re there, you can also sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly update on actually good news about women in the world.

Caroline: And Cristen - remember our guest Kate Kelly from our How to Be A Mormon Feminist episode?

Cristen: Yes, how could I forget her??!

Caroline: Well, she just launched her OWN podcast. It’s called Ordinary Equality and it’s all about the Equal Rights Amendment, a topic which is near and dear to our hearts. So, go check it out!

Cristen: And this year, y’all, we’ve got brand new bonus episodes coming your way on our brand new Unladylike Patreon. Just go to Patreon and search for Unladylike Media if ya wanna support us and go inside the podcast stood with us!

Caroline: Nora Ritchie and Sam Lee are the producers of Unladylike. Abigail Keel is our senior producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing, sound design, and additional music is by Casey Holford. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.

Cristen: We are your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: and Caroline Ervin. Next week…

Cristen: Y’all mentioned someone who I from a very young age had thought was hot and I am talking about the hot fox in Disney’s animated Robin Hood.

Caroline: That was one of my formative crushes!

Cristen: Right? Right? He was so hot!

Bim: So many women. So many women of all sexualities are just is kind of like. So listen, hot, hot Robin Hood. What was that about? Fox Robin Hood. Isn't it remarkable that they distilled pure sexual energy into a children's cartoon character?

Caroline: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would still fuck that Fox.

Cristen: We’re talking THIRST with Bim Adewunmi and Nichole Perkins, hosts of the podcast Thirst Aid Kit. Women’s sexual desires are often dismissed as silly or pathetic, but what happens when we claim our thirst? To find out, Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike so you don’t miss this episode!

Caroline: You can find Unladylike in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get unladylike.