Transcript | Ep. 68: How to Unbridle Horse Girls
[Stinger]
Lisa Hanawalt: I thought horses seemed intriguing, so I begged my parents for riding lessons. And then as soon as I started, I think I was like 7 or 8, I was just like, horses, horses, horses, horses are it. I'm gonna be a horse, I'm going to marry a horse, like I just kind of glommed onto that really hard.
[Theme]
Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike, where we find out what happens when women break the rules. I’m Caroline.
Cristen: I’m Cristen. And saddle up, y’all. Because today we’re talking about horse girls.
[Horse neigh]
Caroline: All right Cristen, I wouldn’t call my younger self a horse girl per se
Cristen: OK …
Caroline: But I DID have quite the collection of My Little Ponies and Breyer horses, which are these fancy plastic horse models that my Barbies would ride around.
Cristen: So I only had like a handful of hand-me-down, well-used My Little Ponies, but my adolescent horse dreams were all about the art. I tried so hard to draw horses, Caroline, and they always ended up looking like wet brooms, and I would get legitimately upset about it, so my tween self would’ve been super jealous of our first guest today … because illustrator Lisa Hanawalt is not only a horse girl, but she also brought to life one of the coolest horses in pop culture
[Clip from Bojack Horseman]
Bojack: Well, as a great woman once said, “Suck a dick, dumb shit.”
Caroline: That’s right, y’all! Lisa is a co-executive producer and the production designer on the Netflix animated series Bojack Horseman. And thanks to her personal HORSE-tery of riding and doodling, she immediately envisioned what Bojack should look like
Lisa: I was like, oh yeah, so he's gonna be brown with like this white snip. He'll kind of look like this horse Tony that I used to ride when I was like 14. And, you know, he'll look a little bit like a thoroughbred mix, and he'll be wearing a patterned sweater. The end. And then, you know, all the execs were like, Oh yeah. Perfect. That's exactly right.
Cristen: Lisa Hanawalt is pretty much horse-girl royalty. And we're talking to her to better understand the mystique of horse girls and how their horse love is so often misunderstood
Caroline: Then, we're venturing beyond even Lisa Hanawalt's horse-girl comfort zone with writer Gray Chapman. Last year, Gray hoofed it to Kentucky for one of the most fanatical horse-girl get-togethers called Breyerfest…
Gray: I was kind of like, “Ha ha, look at this like weird event” — like it’s gonna be like a Gathering of the Juggalos for the horse girls, like, gold. You know like it makes my job easy, I just go, and I write about all the funny weird shit that I see, and that's fine, and people laugh, and it's great. But like actually being there and talking to them about it and also like obviously seeing some parts of my younger self in what they were saying, I was like, wow, I'm not here to make fun of a bunch of teenage girls, like, these girls are awesome.
Caroline: Hear that, y’all? Horse girls are awesome, so today we’re gonna rein in the side-eye, unbridle the earnestness and canter across the spectrum of what it means to be a horse girl.
Cristen: All to find out: What happens when we get off our high horses about horse girls?
[Stinger]
Lisa: When I was in elementary school I would like crawl around in the grass at recess and pretend to be a horse. I was really good at that. And then when I went to middle school my brother - my older brother sat me down and he was like, “Listen you are going into middle school, you're turning 11, like you can't keep crawling around in the grass pretending to be a horse because other kids will make fun of you. So you have to stop doing that in public.” I’m like, “Uh, OK”
Caroline: Cristen —
Cristen: Caroline?
Caroline: There’s something about myself I’ve never really talked about.
Cristen: Oooh OK, tell me! Tell me!
Caroline: Lisa Hanawalt is not the only one who was told as a child to stop crawling around in the grass because other kids might make fun of her
Caroline: So while you were pretending to be a horse. I was on the playground pretending to be a dog.
Lisa: Ooh we would've been friends.
Caroline: Yeah I know we would have for sure. And I'm very excited about that. So like pretending to be a dog often involved, yes, like sometimes crawling around and running and sometimes barking, so I'm curious like what - what did pretending to be a horse entail?
Lisa: Oh I mean super similar. Mostly just galloping around. I you know some some kiddos gallop on their - using their feet and their butts like super high in the air. But I used my knees so that my butt would be lower and I'd look less like a primate. Like that always bothered me about the silhouette of a child pretending to be a horse. So I had calluses like on my knees from galloping around so much and then, yeah, I made a lot of horse noises, and I would do like little jumps in my backyard and stuff.
Cristen: And how did you feel when you were horsing around?
Lisa: Oh, so wild and free. It really was - it felt really good. I don't know how to describe it. It's just like, yes, this is like the core of my being right now. But I knew - I knew it was like kind of shameful and ridiculous. So I'd try to hide it from other people as I got older.
Cristen: Did being a girl who was into horses make you weird? Or did it have some cachet?
Lisa: I was definitely a weird kid. I always had like a couple of close friends, but yeah I was not like a popular, well-adjusted girl, and I knew that like horse girl had sort of a stigma to it. But there was like - there was one other girl who was really into horses, and I was like, Oh well I'm not like her. Oh she's like really weird.
Caroline: I know, there are tiers.
Lisa: Yeah it wasn't - it was not the coolest thing.
Caroline: So how did your - how did your classmates respond?
Lisa: Oh God. They called me all kinds of names and stuff. I don't even remember. They called me a horse poop, which is not like a very creative name.
Caroline: No.
Lisa: But I was kind of just like, whatever, like I'm gonna just keep doing my thing, like I like them so much. It's not like I can change at this point. You know I don't I don't really care to hide it. So yeah luckily I wasn't too self-conscious about it at that point.
Caroline: Well, now you’re a grown horse woman who owns her own horse!
Lisa: Juniper. Yes she is a 13-year-old Fjord Mare. She's a silver dun. What else do you want to know? She's 13 - she's 13.2 hands high, which is short. She is very charming. She loves people, she loves cuddles and attention. Yeah she's a very cuddly horse. Some horses are like a little more aloof, and she's very warm. She's a sweet personality. She's a little bit bratty. She was like kind of like someone's backyard pet for most of her life, I think, so she was a little spoiled. She walks very, very fast with her tiny legs. She's faster than most of the large horses at the barn. So I always have to like slow her down, but if I scratch a certain part of her neck she stops and slows down. So that's her like emergency brake. She's fun. She's a very fun horse.
Caroline: So tell us what you love about horses
Lisa: This is such a hard question to answer and I've spent a lot of time pondering it and I think a lot of people who aren't into horses sort of think that it has like a romantic or sexual kind of side of it. But I think that's just because it's such an intense like attraction that it - the only other comparison is like a romantic crush. You know, it's like one of those things where you see someone, and you just feel, like, thunderstruck, and you're like, I like everything about this person. I like their shape. I like their smell, like even their flaws are cute, like that's kind of how I feel about horses except it's not romantic. It's just like a very strong, like, I just like this so much. It's my favorite thing, and I've kind of always been that way. Even now when I'm on my way to the barn like I'll look out the window and see horses on the way there and I'm like “Ooh horses!” And then I ride my horse. And then on the way back home I'm like, “Oh look horses!” like it's just - it never diminishes.
Cristen: Why do you think that so many girls — girls in particular — love horses, whether it is riding them pretending to be them, drawing them, collecting Lisa Frank unicorn stickers, like what do you think that connection is?
Lisa: I don't really know. That's the thing, is like it feels like it has to be like hormonal or something like we need something to like put that kind of nurturing like kind of crush energy into. And horses happen to be like the perfect vessel for it. And like a lot of girls are into horses, and they kind of lose interest as they get more into boys. And that's definitely like a phenomenon. But I'm not sure. And it's not that men don't like horses, like if you look at the sport like a lot of men are excelling in it. So men do ride, but it's just it doesn't feel like as intense of a thing.
Cristen: OK, Caroline, can we take a hot second here to consider just how bizarre it is that horse-girl relationships are still so constantly sexualized?
Caroline: Truly.
Cristen: Because, like Lisa says, men get into horses too, but nobody’s reading erotic undertones into like Sea Biscuit.
Caroline: Well get this. Sigmund Freud’s daughter Anna also became a psycho-analyst, and in 1926, she popularized the theory that girls get into horses for a few specific reasons.
Cristen: OK
Caroline: So number one: all that grooming involved appeals to “feminine” caregiving
Cristen: I mean, that actually checks out with my My Little Pony past. Go ahead
Caroline: Number two: It’s kinda like riding a giant vibrator
Cristen: Getting weirder
Caroline: And/or number 3: the Freudian catch-all … penis envy.
Cristen: Oh! Of course.
Caroline: Of course.
Cristen: Well, I think Lisa Hanawalt would call that a bunch of horseshee-it.
Lisa: People just don't understand being really into something without wanting to fuck it. And I'm like, that's kind of stupid. Like do you want to fuck a bowl of ice cream? I mean maybe you do, I don't know. Sorry to be crass.
Cristen: What kind of ice cream?
Caroline: Is it Moose Tracks?
Lisa: I mean ...
Cristen: This. OK. This whole sexualizing factor is bizarre
Lisa: It is bizarre.
Cristen: Because - because we don't think that there's not the whole thing of like oh well if you're a cat lady obviously you want to fuck all those cats. Like
Lisa: I think it's because it's like a large powerful thing that you're sitting on like you're literally like it's literally between your legs. And I think that's part of it. And like there's a lot of like. I mean your hips are rocking back and forth on it like it does - it - it can look sort of sexualized. And also you're wearing like you know big black boots and you're carrying a whip. So.
Caroline: Talk about some kinky boots! When we come back, Lisa and I rehash our Breyer-horse pasts
Cristen: Plus, we ride to Kentucky with journalist Gray Chapman to the giant horse-girl gathering at Breyerfest
Caroline: Stay-ble with us.
Cristen: Ooh
[Horse sound]
[Midroll ad 1]
Caroline: OK, so listen. Wait. Let me back up. I -
Lisa: listen.
Caroline. Listen. I had a stable of Breyer horses. I had a lot.
Lisa: Should I just like I identify them for you as you describe them to me. I'm like oh yes that's the model sculpted by so and so in 1983. No I'm not that good.
Caroline: Dammit
Cristen: We’re back with Lisa Hanawalt, of Tuca and Bertie and Bojack Horseman fame. Now Caroline, what exactly are Breyer horses? And by that I mean, what the fuck are you and Lisa talking about here?
Caroline: I’m glad you asked. OK, so, they're these hand-painted, resin model horses. They’ve been around since 1950, and they're super collectible — a big show-jump up from, say, a My Little Pony.
Lisa: I had two. They were a part of the proud Arabian Family I think is what Breyer called them. And one of them was like Chestnut and kind of looked like a horse in a book that I really liked. And then the other one was gray and kind of looked like a horse that I rode in riding school named Burgundy. So I named it after him.
Caroline: I think my favorite one because I projected like this maternal like personality onto her — and it was a her. She was like kind of grayish whitish and she was just standing. She wasn't like prancing there was no like leg in the air. She was just like, I'm just like a grayish white horse that's just kind of hanging out and I'm clearly more responsible than all these other ones.
Lisa: I always liked the standing ones better than the prancing ones partly because they you know stood up better, they didn't constantly fall down. But yeah I thought you could sort of do more with them and you could kind of make them Gallop but it would break their legs sometimes. They had really kind of fragile legs.
Caroline: Yeah I had to super glue some of those legs.
Lisa: Yeah. So my dad had like a whole factory in his workshop of like you know helping to glue my horses back together.
Cristen: Now Caroline, I could seriously listen to you and Lisa horse-out for HOURS.
Caroline: Well, good, cause so could I
Cristen: But we’ve got some place to be … an equine extravaganza that our Breyer-horse-head Lisa once dipped her hoof in, then promptly dipped out.
Caroline: Do you do you know about Breyerfest?
Lisa: Oh yeah. I went. I made my parents take me. They were like, Yeah, OK, I guess we can go to Kentucky. We have some colleagues there we could visit. So we all went. And I remember going, and like there was this thing at like the Holiday Inn near Breyerfest where people would have their rooms open and you could walk into any room and they would have all their Breyers setup, and they were like setup they would have like the drawers of the dresser pulled out and like horses in the drawers. And we went, and we were like walking around in my parents and I were both like, Oh my God this is kind of weird. These are like grownups who are selling and trading these Breyers, and this just feels like a little strange. And I think that was like kind of the beginning of the end of that hobby for me. Where I was like I don't - I like doing this now, but I don't know if I want to be this kind of adult you know — no - no shade to adults who are still into that. But it was like a strange vibe. It was like it was like comic con but for plastic horses.
Caroline: Yeah. Yeah that's exactly how I think of it.
Caroline: To get a peek inside that horse-girl Comic Con, we've got our very own hoofs on the ground. Our next guest, Gray Chapman, reported on the 2018 Breyerfest for the NEW YORK TIMES!
Cristen: Only the tip-top horse-girl press credentials will do here at Unladylike, Caroline!
Caroline: That’s right. Gray is an Atlanta-based writer, a friend of ours … and perhaps most importantly … a horse girl.
Gray: Some people like start off dabbling into the My Little Pony realm. I wasn't personally into that. I kind of jumped right into Breyers. I guess you could say I was just a little too mature for such juvenile toys
Cristen: Now, Gray didn’t just play with plastic ponies. She rode horses competitively as a young girl as well. But she never knew about Breyerfest until two years ago, when a friend from her riding days posted about it on Facebook.
Gray: I was like Breyerfest? What?
Cristen: So, Gray pitched the story to the Times and got the green light. She hopped in her car and drove six hours from Atlanta to a giant horse park in Lexington, Kentucky.
Gray: I got there on a Friday night. Went straight to the Clarion Hotel, which is where all the wheeling and dealing of models happens. That was fascinating. Then the next morning the actual event opens up to the public for the first time, and I am there at 7 a.m. There were people camped out. And then I mean once they opened those gates it was a stampede for lack of a better word. I mean it was wild. It was - there was so much, it was a huge event.
Caroline: Breyerfest attracts around 30,000 mostly horse girls of all ages. They come for the real, live horse-riding demonstrations; the Breyer horse diorama contests; and basically just like wall-to-wall horse-girling
Gray: There were craft tents. There were model horse competitions. There were multiple, like, arenas where you know different kinds of riding were on display like a woman doing like a side saddle performance like Downton Abbey style.
Caroline: And just like Lisa Hanawalt remembered, there were alllllll those hotel rooms packed with Breyer horses for sale
Gray: Basically in this entire block of this hotel all of these dealers rent rooms, and that's where they're staying. But it's also where they're selling, and so you know poke your head into room 106, and the dealer would be like you know laying on their bed eating takeout out of a styrofoam box and watching TV, and their whole room has been transformed into a store, like they brought in racks and shelving, and there's like a dozen people crammed in there like browsing. It was really really intense.
Cristen: Breyerfest was also really, really not especially diverse.
Gray: So I would definitely say that unsurprisingly it was a very white crowd. Not 100 percent white, but definitely a lot of white people the right to say —
Caroline: Sorry, why do you say unsurprisingly?
Gray: I don't know. I mean when I think of people who have like horses or a very white presenting hobby I guess. I mean I'm hesitant to say that because that's of course not unilaterally true. But I don't know, it just seemed like a very white person thing to do is going to this event.
Cristen: Yeah so, Caroline, I Google Image searched “horse girls,” and I had to scroll and scroll and scroll to find a photo that wasn’t white girls on horses. And if you look at the horse-girl canon — think Black Beauty, National Velvet, A Horse Called Wonder — the stories star white girls. Like, the only exception I found is in the Saddle Club series, which is basically the Babysitter’s Club of horse-girl books: Carole Hanson is the only recurring character of color that I could track down. Just one character!
Caroline: But if we’re talking real-life cowgirls, women of color have really been claiming their horse space lately. I mean, just go on Instagram and look up “yeehaw agenda.”
Cristen: Yeah, the “yeehaw agenda” is a term coined by Houston-based pop-culture archivist Bri Malandro as a hat tip basically to country-Western style meets black culture and fashion. So think Megan Thee Stallion or Beyonce on horseback in the Daddy Lessons video in Lemonade
Caroline: Yeah and not to mention equestrian traditions like escaramuza in Mexico, which is sort of like rodeo meets fancy trick riding, and, of course, you know horses are deeply entwined in many Native American cultures
Cristen: Back at Breyerfest, what did jump out to Gray was the diversity of age ranges
Gray: I was expecting it to be like wall to wall little girls and tween girls, but it was all ages. I mean I interviewed a woman who is in I think her 60s who goes every year and she literally moved to be closer to Breyerfest. Like she moved homes to Kentucky so that she could be closer to the event. So I mean there was like a very - it was a huge spectrum.
Caroline: Cristen, before we did this episode, I thought of horse girls, like exclusively in the Lisa Hanawalt vein — the girls galloping around on the playground, doodling horses in their notebooks, wearing airbrushed horse T-shirts. But Gray pointed out that, like, hello, there is more than one breed of horse girl!
Cristen: Yeah - there’s cowgirls, barn girls, trail guides, equestrian riders …
Gray: There's like the Tina Belcher end of the spectrum and then there's like the Taylor Swift end of the spectrum. I'm pretty sure Taylor Swift is a horse girl.
Caroline: She's got that big horse girl energy, I think
Gray: She has big horse girl energy
[Taylor Swift Singing: Now it’s too late for you and your white horse to catch me now...]
Gray: And that is the thing too, is that you don't have to actually participate in an equestrian sport to be a horse girl
Cristen: Yeah, there are plenty of horse-obsessed girls who never even come in contact with the actual animal. So I’m guessing, Caroline, that this is where those Breyer Horses come in.
Caroline: For sure! And like, granted, $50 for a Breyer horse isn’t exactly cheap.
Cristen: But that’s a drop in the feed bucket compared to the hundreds of dollars a month it’ll run you to simply board a real, live horse.
Gray: This is like a way to assemble your own herd basically. I guess it's kind of a proxy for a real horse in a way that is shockingly effective but it seems to really work for little girls.
Caroline: What does Breyerfest mean to these girls? Especially like the younger ones who might still be in the throes of the backyard horse girl-ness.
Gray: Yeah.
Caroline: What does it mean to them?
Gray: I think it means everything. And honestly like yes the young ones who are still in the throes, but I think it means a lot to the older ones who are still in the throes too. Because you know I mean I spoke with teenage girls and and people in their early 20s who like still play with their Breyers, and this is still a big part of their life, and I think that Breyerfest gives them, you know, a place where they can just like really lean in publicly and be amongst like kindred spirits. And you know everybody's version of their fandom is a little bit different, but the fact that you're surrounded by people who are all on the same page and like won't roll their eyes at your Breyer horse collection in your bedroom and have also spent a lot of time like doodling horses in the margins of their algebra homework like it's just you kind of like are all on the same level and you get it. And I think that especially in like prepubescence is like it's such an opportunity for these girls to just like finally kind of. let their little freak flags fly, and it's it's very wholesome and special for them.
Cristen: When we come back, Gray leads us on a brief tour of horse-girl internet — a place where those horsey freak flags can fly year-round.
Caroline: And later, Lisa Hanawalt will tell us what’s it’s like to transition from a horse girl to a horse woman.
Cristen: Stick around
[Midroll ad 2]
[Clip from Stormy Strike YouTube video]
Stormy: The last thing I’m gonna show you guys is like the most exciting way to kind of end off my Breyerfest. This was an exciting pull. I opened - I think I didn’t even have to open the bag yet, I just slipped off the green plastic bag and it was … It was a splash variation of the Diana Model!!!!!!! Oh my gosh! I still can’t believe it! Oh, she is just gorgeous I’m in love with her. And look at her eyes. She actually has blue eyes. That’s so cool. I love them! Ohhhh! She’s so cute. Look at that little spot on her nose! And my camera is not wanting to focus. I mean, same. But c’mon, camera, you gotta work with me here.
Caroline: That was Stormy Strike, one of the most popular horse girls on YouTube.
Cristen: Yes, that’s right, the online horse-girl community on Twitter, Instagram and Youtube is not only a pretty magical place, but it is also thriving — so we had to ask our horse correspondent Gray Chapman about it
Caroline: So, what is floating around in horse girl Internet then. Like what is the content?
Gray: So much good content. So, I mean you know there's there are memes and inside jokes there are, like, you know girls who collect Breyers and do like styled photo shoots of them. You know like standing wistfully next to a creek. Something that a nature photographer would want to shoot of like an actual horse. So there’s that. The YouTubers that I spoke with were in the like 16, 17, to early 20s range. They create scripted dramas with their Breyer horses. They hold casting calls for voice overs for each other...
[Dramatic music]
Lou: Thanks for all your help with transporting the horses, Austin.
Austin: No problem. It’s what I’m here to do. Lou, I’ve been meaning to ask you. Do you think that maybe later we could go catch a -
[Horse neighs]
Lou: Hold that thought.
Austin: A movie? Never mind.
Gray: The thing is like you can't make a Breyer horse move without moving it with your hand. So you know the hands are in there and there's dramatic music and it is - it's I mean it is just like the furthest and most wonderful, logical extension of what any little girl would be doing with a Breyer horse like in her back yard or with her friends. But it's, like, formalized and captured on camera and distributed out to the entire world.
[dramatic music]
Lou: Come on, boy. Let’s go. Easy now. Easy…
[hoof sounds]
Lou: Good by, Lazerado. Come on. Come on. Good boy.
Caroline: Well, so what effects has this online horse-girl community had on the girls themselves?
Gray: The social media circles that have emerged in horse Internet have really like emboldened the horse girl. Like, it gives the horse girl a place to, like, find her kin. It's basically like 24/7 Breyerfest, like 365 days a year you know where they can like facetime their horses to each other and like make videos and you know like. And they're basically doing a lot of the stuff that we were doing as kids when we played with Breyer horses like making them kiss and you know like cantering them around in the backyard, but they're like documenting it on Instagram, and so now they're finding each other
Caroline: Cristen, Gray even met two girls who staged a horse wedding at breyerfest.
Cristen: OK
Caroline: Yeah, like, they were internet friends whose Breyer horses met and fell in love on Facetime
Cristen: Of course they did
Caroline: Yeah, totally. And so when the girls got together at Breyerfest in real life, they dressed up their horses, got a cow to be the priest, and threw rose petals!
Cristen: I so wish I could have been there, Caroline. Well, and Gray also says though that beyond horse girls being able to meet each other. Horse-girl internet is also helping redefine how we think of horse girls and who they are.
Gray: I mean I think that like events like Breyerfest and especially the emergence of horse Internet in particular have allowed people to see that there are those girls or people and that it isn't just a unilateral like Taylor Swift. I think it opens people up to the idea that a horse girl and like a snooty you know rich white girl are not necessarily one and the same. So yeah I mean I think that maybe that sort of visibility can help to at least add a little bit of nuance and dimension to our understanding of the horse girl.
Caroline: OK Cristen, the question for this episode is what happens when we get off our high-horses about horse girls. Gray has an answer.
Gray: OK. I think at the risk of potentially like offending anybody at Breyerfest. But I think that it is safe to say that most of what I saw there would be considered by the average person to be like a little weird, and I just love that they like didn't give a shit. It was just cool. I don't know, it's - teenage years especially are so fraught that it was very refreshing to see that demographic in particular just really owning this thing that most people on like let's say the Internet would like roll their eyes at. But it was cool to see these teen girls just like - be like, fuck it.
Caroline: Embracing that earnestness.
Gray: Yeah I think it's like really hard nowadays for some reason to be like earnest about something you really love. Like I think we all feel or at least speaking for myself I feel pressure to be like a little a little bit jaded and a little bit guarded, and you know the idea of very publicly throwing myself into something that I am genuinely like passionate about is a little daunting to me, and so it was cool to see these girls who were younger than me get it so much better, like it clicked for them and it was cool to see. I don't know. I like earnestness. It's hard.
Caroline: It is hard.
Gray: I'll just say this. I'm interested to see what this generation of horse girls becomes. What like 20 years from now some of these girls that I talked to like do they outgrow it, or does this become like a mission. I don't know. We'll see.
Cristen: In the meantime, Caroline, if we wanna know what grown-up horse-girling can look like, we’ve gotta get back to our first guest, Lisa Hanawalt. I mean, she went from getting called Horse Poop at school to attracting her own Hanawalt horse fans.
Caroline: So Lisa, how is being a horse woman different than being a horse girl, do you think?
Lisa: I think the main difference is now I'm more into the community of - of the barn and like riding with other people. I think when I - when I rode as a teen like the other barn girls tended to be really bitchy and like they were a lot of them were rich and owned their own horses, and I didn't really relate to them. Like I worked at the barn in order to pay off half of a horse lease you know like. And so there was kind of like a - a hierarchy there. It wasn't like that great of an environment.
Lisa: But now like I ride at this barn where there's a lot of cool women, a lot of older women who didn't get into riding until their 30s. And there's a lot less judgment, a lot more acceptance. I can show up at the barn and be with my horse, and we can all kind of talk about our horses together, like there's no lack of like things to talk about when there's horses around and we can all go on trail rides together, and yeah it just it's really great and supportive.
Cristen: So we've actually heard from a couple of Unladylike listeners who are horse women themselves and have talked about how - one was even a self-identified horse spinster because she's just like dudes just do not - it's - it’s a - a turnoff for them. So we were wondering if you had any advice for listeners who feel - feel like their horse love is something that they are embarrassed about or ashamed of.
Lisa: I was just thinking about this. I was just thinking about like how incredibly lucky I am that my partner supports this. And he's the one who encouraged me to take lessons again, and he's the one who encouraged me to - you know he was telling me like oh you should make a goal out of getting your own horse one day. And then when I came to him with like Juniper's ad a week later and it's like I think I'm gonna get this one. He's like I didn't mean like literally right now, but he supported it. And like every time I ask him like, Oh should I go to the barn today or not. He's like, Yeah you definitely should. The answer is always yes. You never regret going to the barn. You know I go like four or five times a week, but sometimes I'm just like so tired and overworked I'm like, oh maybe I shouldn't go today. But he encourages me. And I think it's just. I mean that's - that's what I liked about him in the first place is - I a lot of guys I've dated have been threatened by my devotion to my artwork as well. And he never was, he always got it. So I don't know. Find you a man like that I guess or a woman or any kind of partner who supports you and knows that you should do what you love whether it involves them or not and isn't threatened by that. And if you can't find that, then there's nothing wrong with being alone like being single is great too.
Caroline: Have you - have you heard from any current or former horse girls who feel like excited by or validated by your success?
Lisa: Yeah I've heard from a couple of people who were like, Oh my God it's so cool that you just stuck to what you love and then you like you know started drawing horses for a living. And now I think I feel like horse girls are like more accepted now because like there's all those girls in like Finland who ride those hobby horses.
Caroline: Yes!
Lisa: And it's like a whole sport. And then there's girls on Instagram who like their whole thing is crawling around pretending to be a horse and like going over jumps, and then they edit their videos to cool music and, like, it's so it's it just fills my heart. I love it so much. They're like I follow all their accounts. I just love them.
[Music]
Cristen: Y’know Caroline, I think the mystique of horse girls is their capacity for un-self-conscious joy. Like regardless of how uncool they might be, you’ve gotta admire their gallop, you know?
Caroline: Oh, I do! I do! And, Cristen, I’ve gotta say, I’ve even started feeling a little protective over horse girls because it honestly seems to me that horse-girling isn’t all that far removed from what we consider like typical ‘boy’ hobbies. You know, whether that’s comic book obsessions or like baseball stats. Like, let horse girls just live already!
Cristen: Oh they gonna live.
Caroline: They’re gonna live
Cristen: They’re gonna live. Now, horse-girl unladies. We know y’all are out there and we want to hear from you. Have you ever been shamed for your horse girling around? Or are you a horse woman who makes Breyer YouTube videos? Hit us up on social @unladylikemedia or join the conversation in our private facebook group.
Caroline: You can also email us at hello at unladylike.co. Head on over to our website -- unladylike.co -- to find this episode’s sources, transcript and links to watch BoJack Horseman. The first half of season 6 just dropped on Netflix.
Cristen: And while you’re on Unladylike.co, you can sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly update on actually good news about women in the world.
Caroline: Sam Lee and Nora Ritchie are the producers of Unladylike. Abigail Keel is our senior producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing, sound design, and additional music is by Casey Holford. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.
Cristen: Special thanks to Brendan Byrne at Stitcher Studios in LA . AND to Stormy Strike & Lightning Stables for their AMAZING work on YouTube. Go check out their other videos!
Caroline: We are your hosts, Caroline Ervin
Cristen: and Cristen Conger. Next week…
Ilene Chaiken: I know that the thing that sold the show was my telling him about a conversation and a conversation that most lesbians I knew had had which is when you start a new relationship. Is it okay to just wash your old dildo or do you have to buy a new one?
Caroline: It's a good question!
Cristen: I know. Like, and?
Illene: He just stood it up in the room and said “I love this. We're doing it.”
Caroline: We’re talking to Ilene Chaiken, co-creator, writer and executive producer of The L Word.
Cristen: Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike so you don’t miss this episode. Find us in Stitcher, Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.
Caroline: And remember, got a problem?
Cristen: Get unladylike.
[Music]
Gray: I was literally walking through a horse cemetery like where they bury famous lauded horses in the Kentucky Horse Park and a woman appeared to me. she was real. But I swear to God like the way that I was walking through a barn and the way of it like the light and the dust it was like this magical experience. And I like wasn't planning on interviewing her and we ended up talking for 30 minutes. So. We were talking about her horse collecting her model horse collecting hobby and she said when my ex-husband said quote It's me or the horses. I said quote Have a nice day.
