Transcript | Ep. 66: How to Take on Politics

[Stinger]

Jessica: I talk about your news diet and I think that what people need is a “We gotcha.” The whole day is gonna happen. Crazy things like tweets notifications. Turn it off. Turn down the noise. We gotcha. and I think that there's a real need for that because otherwise it's just a mountain of info. It's a firehose coming at you all the time.

[Theme]

Caroline: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike, where we find out what happens when women break the rules. I’m Caroline.

Cristen: I’m Cristen. And Caroline, how would you describe your news diet? Like is it a firehose of nourishing fruits n veggies just gobblin it up om nom nom …

Caroline: Ummm maybe more like a tray of pizza rolls right out of the oven that’s still too hot to eat, you know, like, zero nutritional value, AND it’s burning the shit out of the roof of my mouth, because I’m so hungry and I just devour it

Cristen: I am really relating to this food metaphor. But seriously. Political news these days feels like it’s always dialed up to a 10, it is gonna burn the shit out of the roof of your mouth, but at the same time, the stakes are too high to ignore.

Caroline: Yeah, between honestly the news alerts on my phone, 500 newsletters in my inbox and being on Twitter every second of the day, it feels harder than ever to strike that balance between staying engaged and informed and preserving my mental health, yknow?

Cristen: Oh, I know. The first question I ask myself every morning is: Can I handle whatever Michael Barbaro is about to tell me??

[The Daily Music Sting]

Cristen: Luckily, today we’re gonna get some insights from a FORMER CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT!

Caroline: That’s right. Jessica Yellin is here to tell us how she’s Instagramming her way to better political news, without all that yellin’.

Cristen: I see what you did there. Jessica Yellin. Yellin. And once we’ve got our news feeds sorted, it’s time for a combo civics lesson and pep talk on how getting elected to public office works in the US with one of my favorite nasty women: actor, writer, podcaster and activist June Diane Raphael

Caroline: June Diane channeled her post-election rage into a truly excellent guidebook she co-wrote with Kate Black, the former chief staff of Emily’s List. It’s called Represent: The Woman’s Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World.

June: There's so many different things you think about when you think of a politician and usually that person is is older and male and white and you know all all of these pictures come to our mind. And it's usually not ourselves we're thinking of. For most women. And I really wanted to demystify this process and really make it accessible and even dare I say fun for the average woman.

Cristen: And not just the average white woman! Both June Diane and Jessica are doing their part to help women of all walks not be scared off from today’s political shitstorm — and possibly make it a little better.

Caroline: So today, we’re reconsidering what politicians should look like, who’s qualified to run and how to get started — even if you don’t feel “born to be in it” like Beto O’Rourke on that ill-advised Vanity Fair cover.

Cristen: #neverforget.

[Stinger]

Jessica Yellin: being a journalist is a public service you're helping the American people understand the issues so they can take part in a democracy. And so we have to do our part to making sure that Americans understand the issues, and I'm not sure we're always hitting that mark.

Cristen: Caroline, you and I actually met in journalism school, and not gonna lie, I was kinda starstruck to get to talk to Jessica Yellin — like someone who obviously knows White House politics ... and the growing challenge of sorting the truth from the spin, especially as a cable news reporter

Caroline: Yes, and that’s why she’s taken a whole new approach to her journalism. In 2017, Jessica headed to the smaller screen, and started reporting regularly on her personal Instagram stories, under the hashtag #newsnotnoise …

Jessica Yellin: My goal is to help you separate the news from the noise because there's so much noise right now and I spent my whole career in TV news and I realized Oh my God we've got to do something different. So I'm trying to figure that out and solve it on Instagram.

Cristen: Because Jessica says the news wasn’t always this noisy

Jessica: When I was a baby reporter, my job was always Hey Yellin we're gonna have a debate on the tax plan would you come in and give us a minute 45 on what's in the tax plan. Give us the information and then we'll fight about it. Now often my old job doesn't exist. They don't do the whole, Here's what we're talking about. They just go straight to the fight and then you get all these polls and sociological studies and hand-wringing that Americans are making emotional decisions about policy, they're not based on reason and thought like umm … is that a surprise? Are we giving them the information? So part of my mission is to show that people actually want the information they want to know. We just have to tell it in a way that makes sense that connects like explain your terms use less jargon and stop shouting at me.

Jessica: I mean do you guys, can I just ask do you listen to cable news?

Hosts: No no. Oh God no no no.

Jessica: What about any TV news?

Hosts: No. No.

Caroline: Well it's a firehose, and it's not always a firehose of news. A lot of times especially when you're referring to cable news, it's a firehose of just conjecture just opinions and trying to analyze things that haven't even fully happened yet. I just want to know what has happened and why.

Cristen: Yeah it's a lot of - it's constant hot takes.

Jessica: Right. Right now what happens when I have this conversation with people who are like news media experts they'll say, Oh but if people actually wanted real information told clearly we would be doing that. And so since we're not doing that that proves that people don't want it. It's just like you know this like self-referential confirmation cycle, right?

Cristen: Well where do you think - I'm so curious to know where you where you think it went off the rails?

Jessica: I think it's a good question. I think two things: One, you know there's so much with fragmenting of the audience because people are go they’re listening to so many podcasts instead of listening to, watching TV news or they're out during their day and so they're not sitting in front of a TV, or social media, Instagram, Facebook. There's less and less audience available to sit and watch the news. And then there's more pressure to get those eyeballs and then you have to have like, you know, shareholder reports all the time showing how - you know - what your profit margin is. And so there's more and more pressure to deliver on ratings in short timeframes with low expense, and the best way to do that is to put people on a panel who will yell at each other. Or like then I wouldn't say the best way to do that but the way that has been internalized as one an effective way is to create these panels of people because you're not spending all the money to send them into the country to go report a story, right? I wonder if you know there's a whole other audience to be gotten. I believe there is a whole audience to be gotten by doing it differently. And I think it especially leaves women out of the conversation. Women especially feel this, stop screaming at me. I can't take the rage. You gotta turn it down, people. And that means that then women are turning the news down, and we don't want that. The only people who like the way the news is being told right now are grown up guys, which coincidentally overlaps with the people who have created, produced, and run the news for many, many generations. Now due to recent changes in our culture, a number of news organizations have put women in charge, but that is a super new development. And the conventions of how we tell the news were built, you know, by guys who like to watch ESPN and they wanted to make politics like ESPN and that's what we got.

Cristen: Burnt out by that ESPN-ification (to coin a new term), Jessica took some time off, wrote a novel called Savage News, and started thinking about how to get back into the kind of fact-forward news reporting she could stand behind.

Caroline: Her friends started encouraging her to just do it herself — with a phone you don’t need a whole network. So, one day, Jessica put her phone in selfie mode, shot a quick newsy explainer, and posted it to her Instagram story.

Cristen: Sure, the lighting and angles weren’t perfect, but her followers dug it, and now Jessica has effectively turned her Insta Stories into her own news channel.

Jessica: For me it was really like I just wanted to tell the news differently. I just had this. I'm a political reporter. I spent a lot of my time and my career chasing undecided voters. Undecided voters heavily overlap with women. So if you're a political reporter everybody cares about how's the vote going to turn out, and the undecided voters make the decision in the end, and that's why we focus all our attention on them disproportionately. And one of the key undecided voting demographics is suburban women, moms, you know. And I - I've spent a lot of time interviewing them during campaigns and following them. And a lot of times they end up voting the way of their husbands. So they'll be undecided and their husbands vote for Obama in ‘12 but Trump in ‘16 and they do the same. And the conventional wisdom in Washington is that's because they really don't care and they're just going to do with their husbands say. But when you probe that you find that the women are clipping articles, they are watching the news. It's just not speaking to them.

Cristen: OK, Caroline, quick grain of salt sidebar because the political habits of women certainly are not uniform. The important point is the disengagement … or getting burned out or turned off so much by political news that we just quit trying to stay informed.

Caroline: Right. And there’s already gender gap in political engagement, and it’s not unique to the US. Studies continue to show that men are more interested in politics generally and pay more attention to political news than women do.

Jessica: And so I wanted to find a way to both do the news differently in a way that they would hear but also in a space where they're already active, and Instagram is a place that skews heavily female. It is a more friendly environment in terms of like tone than some of the other social media platforms. There's not a lot of rage in there. And there wasn't really a news offering. And what I really love about it is the conversation I can have with people I used to be on TV and I would do a live shot. And it just goes out into the ether and I've no idea if it connects. Now I'll do a story and they'll people say would you explain again what sanctions are? Would you explain what tariffs means?

JESSICA ON INSTAGRAM: Hi, happy Wednesday. In his State of the Union address President Trump warned of a surprising threat. He said that he was worried about calls to adopt socialism around the country. What’s he talking about? I wanna get into that.

Caroline: So, in what way do you talk about the news or cover the news differently on your Instagram account vs. if you were in front of a television camera? Is there an example?

Jessica: After the shootings the in Ohio and in Texas a lot of people were messaging me that we like are you doing the updates why aren't you doing the updates. And I came on and I said I'm not here to tell you like the number of people who passed away or what the shooter was wearing you can get that everywhere else. I'm here to provide you information that helps you participate in the world more and helps you feel confident. So what I'm going to talk about are what are the different gun safety reforms that are out there right now? What are the ones that have them - that are the most popular and what are their chances of passing? And if you want to take action in some way what can you do? That's the kind of thing I would never have done in the news. Now some people might say that that's like taking a side. But when 98 percent of the American people support background checks, it's not taking a side.

Cristen: OK, well, one of the most daunting things for me personally is just the pace of all the information being thrown as us. So how can Unladylike listeners get better at sifting through all of our news feeds to find out what’s important and what’s worth ignoring?

Jessica: My advice is first: pick a time of day you're going to take in your news you don't need to do it all day long. So, pick a time of day and set how much time you're going to do in advance so you're intentional about it. So you're not spending hours, right? Two, turn off your notifications. You do not need to know if Trump tweeted something right now or if you find out about it at your designated news time, 5 p.m. or whatever, 7, 10. Unless you're in like you're a commodities trader in the news business. You don't need to have the breaking alert. Try to reduce the number of times you if you're on Twitter try to reduce the number of times you check it. I have to give myself that advice every hour. And find in advance, you know, news sources that provide factual information rather than the shouting opinion. But wherever you find your news go for the fact stuff and turn down the opinion stuff and then try to have conversations about it so that you really internalize it. Because I'm going to say this it's so cheesy but the whole point of a free press is to educate an electorate in a democracy. And so we need to be doing our good job with that. But also it's on everybody in the country to participate by getting smart on what's going on starting now. Don't wait till it's too close to the election. Find the way to participate. It's really important that we all get engaged and if it's you know through on ramping through the kind of news I offer or going to community meetings in your town or finding that one friend who's super involved and not being scared to ask questions. Don't be scared to ask questions. I promise you somebody else also doesn't understand what filibuster means or whatever the thing is. And we just have an extra hurdle to get over on that because we kind of always assume we don't know. But others do, but you know speak up, show up, do your part.

Cristen: And follow you on Instagram.

Jessica: And follow me on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter or YouTube news not noise. Jessica Yellin.

Caroline: Cristen, after you and I talked with Jessica, I took her advice to figure out what works for me, news-consumption-wise — And I gotta tell ‘ya, I turned off each and every news alert on my phone

Cristen: I am so impressed. How does it feel?

Caroline: Honestly, it feels great. Like, I still obviously check the news, but I now no longer have that sort of drained feeling every time I look at my phone.

Cristen: Yeah so you’re still informed?

Caroline: Yes

Cristen: But less drained?

Caroline: Yeah. Checking the news on my own terms.

Cristen: OK, I need to get on board with that.

Cristen: So, Y’all, if we wanna take Jessica’s advice and participate in politics — now what? When we come back, actor and author June Diane Raphael breaks down how to get involved — without having a breakdown. Stick with us.

[Music]

[Midroll ad 1]

[Stinger]

June: Dear reader on election night November 8th 2016 I, June Diane Raphael, actress, writer, podcaster, hyphenate-haver, boarded a red eye from L.A. to New York to go to a funeral which would turn out to be one of the brighter spots of the next few days. The two other seats in my row were empty. A news notification popped up on my phone as I settled into my seat. The state of Florida was called for Trump. Alone in my row, I was feeling how to put this? Shaky.

Cristen: We’re back, and that was June Diane Raphael reading the introduction to her book, Represent: The Woman’s Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World.

Caroline: Now, June Diane isn’t your typical political organizer, sure. But Cristen, she did recently play Chief of Staff to Charlize Theron’s winning presidential candidate in Long Shot.

Cristen: Yeah, I think that counts! And June Diane has said that making the comedy where the qualified woman won was kind of cathartic after living through the sexist hell that was the 2016 presidential election.

June: I was genuinely wondering if this mother fucker can become president, can I? And should I run for office? What do I do? And so I started doing some research on my own about what that would look like, where I would run, what the steps were, how does how does one do it, and what I found was not much.

Caroline: June Diane ultimately decided the time wasn’t right to run — you know, she’s in the middle of this super successful entertainment career — but she did have an idea: Somebody who knows politics inside and out should gather all the information involved with running for office and put it all together in a handy book written specifically for women.

Cristen: Right, to really explain the process how it can differ so radically depending on the race. Because, Caroline, there are more than 500 thousand elected offices across the US — from school board to insurance commissioner, like, all the way up the chain. In other words, getting involved in politics does not mean you’re trying to get into the White House.

Caroline: Yet.

Cristen: Yeah, yeah.

Caroline: The idea of compiling all that information and helping to get it into women’s hands led June Diane to Emily’s List. It’s one of the most influential political action committees out there that’s focused exclusively on getting politically liberal, pro-choice women elected to office.

Cristen: And Emily’s List led June Diane to Kate Black who was their vice president of research at the time

June: We started talking and we spent an hour on the phone together, and I was really just calling her to say, “Hey, you all should do this book, and I want to give you this idea to do.”

Cristen: Kate loved the idea but had one condition: June Diane had to write it with her…

Caroline: And June Diane tried to approach it with what she would want to know if she HAD decided to run for office

June: I think a lot of women do this. We - we want to be perfect at it, and we want to have it all ready to go, and we want to be able to show up as the good student who knows everything and has everything ready. And - and you know we say in the book a lot of times men don't do that and men are not waiting for that time. And I think it's really powerful to start telling people and to start holding oneself accountable to your friends and family and getting them engaged and having their support and having them follow up with you and starting to talk about it and putting the idea into the ether.

Cristen: So what were some of the biggest questions that you had when starting out?

June: I really had a lot of questions around what would the first thing be? Like, Where do you - where do you go, what do you do, how do you do it. What is there some sort of a guideline and - and you know Kate's advice was to really start talking about it and telling people why you want to do this and what you care about and what the issues are that are motivating you - so getting to the "why" right away and and then figuring out how to narrow down the where. So I remember really thinking like well what do I care about that's right here and talking to Kate about OK, let's say just for example I wanted to run for L.A. school board. What what does that look like. And her telling me like here's - OK let's start let's start researching let's look up how much the last candidate how much money the last candidate raised giving me some really concrete guidelines that I found to be incredibly helpful. So then what we did in the book is we really provide the reader with this 21-point checklist where they can go through and start to really work the book and work the process.

Caroline: Yeah, that checklist really breaks down the whole campaign process and highlights the specific hurdles that women should expect.

Cristen: So for example, Represent lays out how women of color tend to have to work the hardest for campaign dollars because they’re likelier than white women to face primary challengers and often attract smaller donations.

Caroline: Also, Cristen, my anxiety really appreciates the fact that every chapter includes step-by-step action plans like a time management tracker, public records cheat sheet, and a caregiving inventory. And If you read it with friends, and there’s even a little … scene work potential…

Cristen: So we have one other short passage from Represent that we would love for you to read because it is not only a very detailed and handy guide but it's really funny. I mean even when you're talking about electoral bureaucracy. So, could you just read steps one through three of Beth’s wine soaked journey on page 68.

June Of course. I’ll start with “you bet your ass there are.”

Cristen: Perfect. Okay

June: Does this sound good?

Cristen: That sounds great

June: ‘Cause this is truly a scene. This is our scene work.

Cristen: All right here here's Beth. Now that I'm retired, I'm ready. I want to run for governor to fight for and protect all Iowan consumers. First things first: Are there requirements?

June: You bet your ass there are, Beth. Here's how Beth figures out what the requirements are: Step one. She fires up lady Google searches for Iowa gubernatorial requirements and finds the secretary of state's handy candidate guide. She opens the document and starts scrolling. Step two. Beth pours herself a glass of wine. She finds the requirements for the governorship and thinks to herself: Must be a U.S. citizen.

Cristen: Check.

June: Must be an Iowa resident for two years by the general election.

Cristen: Check.

June: Must be at least 30 years old at the time of the general election.

Cristen: Oh, honey, check.

June: Step three. Beth sees a box that says signatures needed. OK, so how many signatures does she need? Beth takes a pretty big sip of wine. Scene.

Cristen: I love that — perfect cliffhanger.

June: You did a great Beth. I wasn't imagining her that way, but I really enjoyed your interpretation.

Cristen: Thank you. I have been preparing.

Caroline: Cristen, how did that feel to read a scene with one of your faves?

Cristen: I mean, I can die now a happy woman, Caroline. But seriously I A) it was a blast, obviously. But I was suuuper interested to ask June Diane about something that you and I think about a lot and try to enact on this podcast and in our book, which is smashing the patriarchy, sure, but also smashing white feminism.

Caroline: Yes, checking our own problematic white ladyhood. That’s coming up.

Cristen: But first, June Diane shares a very important piece of advice she coined for managing your life, politics and all. Stick around.

[Music]

[Midroll ad 2]

[Stinger]

Caroline: What is the most unladylike thing about you?

June: Probably the most unladylike thing about me is my anger and rage, which is really quite available to me and is really searing. And I'm like, starting to kind of figure out how to ride it, but it's definitely I would say classically unladylike to be a women walking around with this much anger.

Cristen: We’re back with actor, podcast host, and my new scene partner, June Diane Raphael.

Caroline: June Diane is starting to figure out how to ride her political anger in the ways that make sense for her ... especially as a working mom. She's not running for office yet, but after writing Represent w/ Kate Black, she's definitely prepared ... AND helping to prepare others...

Cristen: Yes, and she’s a co-founder of The Jane Club in LA, which is this coworking space-slash-matriarchal-oasis, as she likes to call it.

Caroline: God, I love the sound of that — also getting political where you are and with what you’ve got, that’s great. But how do we figure out what that could look like for us regular, non-June Dianes?

Cristen: Well Caroline, I think that starts with creating the mental space to even consider it, you know? Which means making time and filtering out the bullshit that distracts us from our goals. And there’s a saying June Diane has that’s helped her do all the things she does — five magical words — “Not gonna take that on” [SFX magic wand]

June: It's really a mantra I use because I care so deeply about so many things that I have to really I have to be really discerning about what I'm engaging in and what I'm not engaging in. And specifically for me that means a lot of the smaller stuff and minor grievances and you know disappointments etc. I have the ability to simply say, I'm not going to take that on. I see it, I'm not blind, I see it happening over there, but that's over there and that - that moment or person or event or whatever it is that's demanding my attention I'm not going to you know acknowledge. My car was stolen out of my driveway and I was like Oh I see this but I'm not going to emotionally invest in this experience. I'm approaching it in a very clinical way of like this is something that happened, and I'll deal with it, but I it really I can detach fully, and I find it incredibly freeing, incredibly freeing. And please know, like I'm very I'm - I'm - I cry all the time, I'm very emotionally connected. It's just that because I know I can be so emotionally connected I have to really protect myself.

Cristen: Caroline, in the context of politics and the firehose of news that we talked about earlier with Jessica Yellin, I think this advice is super handy … like, it's another everyday, accessible way to filter the news from the noise.

Caroline: Totally. June Diane's whole “I’m not taking that on” philosophy is really about setting up — and enforcing — personal boundaries

June: It can be really hard to say no. But I also in a previous version of myself would spend a lot of time explaining why I couldn't do something and what you know making it okay for the other person. And the truth is like, no is really a complete sentence. So I spend a lot of time now practicing saying no in a way where I'm not like being inauthentic or or explaining or making someone else feel better because I - when when people say no to me, which happens all the fucking time, I don't implode in a pile of ashes, you know what I mean? And so it's almost like demeaning for me to to assume that someone else would. You know I had this one friend who was constantly texting me to go for a hike. I don't like hiking. I don't want to hike. You know and I was finding these round-a-fucking-bout ways to explain it and or like “text me next week” just knowing like, I can get out of you asking me right now, and I'll deal with this next week. But I finally just texted back and said, I don't want to hike. Period.

Caroline: And did that person implode?

June: Period. No. And I was really practicing like I don't have to apologize for that. Like I don't want to hike. I know it's confusing since I've said in the last 10 texts that I'd be open to it another time. I recognize it's probably a little surprising, but - but the truth is I don't - I don't want to do this. I also, well this is the main thing I say no to is lunches. I don't know who has time to fucking eat lunch at a restaurant with people, but I don't. And I am like you know everyone is always I like want to grab lunch. Like no I don't. I don't have time to grab lunch. You know. And so now I'm very comfortable just like not taking on lunch. I'm not eating lunch with people. It's not anything I can do.

Caroline Yeah I can text you over lunch. I can text you from my lunch.

June Yeah! And you know what. I can actually grab coffee. What I can't do is sit down at a meal during my daytime hours. That's like so stress-inducing for me. And so when something is not for me it ain't for me.

Caroline: It DOES seem like politics is for you, and you definitely weren’t afraid to take on this book! But I feel like a lot of white women have been guilty in politics and especially social justice issues of not taking it on, or not stepping up to help women who don’t look like them.

June: Well, I mean I'm certainly not telling people to not take on the bigger things in life. I am someone who does take on the bigger things in life. But I specifically when I when it comes to race and privilege and identity and equity and justice I think that's something we should all take on. For many white women starting that work can be really really scary and daunting but it is their work. It's all of our work to understand our own privilege and and to understand the ways in which you know regardless necessarily of intention or our actions have have an impact. And what our unearned privilege really means. And so I think that work is is not without sacrifice and not without an investigation that that's deep and challenging to oneself. What I worry about with activism right now is that it it seems like almost a moment in time like it or performative and you know culturally like I don't know "woke" or whatever to to do that where you know I think the work is actually so much deeper and timeless and the work of understanding and exploring one's identity and specifically privilege is is is deep and often painful work and freeing and joyful work as well. But what I what I worry about is it's seeming... Is people jumping into the conversation without having really done the work. Because it takes time.

Cristen: And the way June Diane sees it, taking on that everyday, ongoing, INTERNAL work — whatever that means for each of us — is necessary for enacting the EXTERNAL political change we wanna see in the world

June: I do think I have a lot of confidence and I but I also think like most people I waver between like total self-confidence and total imposter syndrome and insecurity. But my experience as a woman I feel that actually being self-confident and speaking positively about one's self and enjoying one's own body and the space that they take up in the world is is is quite an act of radical resistance in the culture we live in. The thing that I I really would say to anyone who's listening to this who's thinking oh my gosh this is for other people to do this is best left to others. I'd really ask them to consider themselves and to consider what they have to offer. And. To consider. Consider this as a possibility in their lives that they can be a mother they can be a young person they can be retired they can be a domestic worker they can be a sex worker they can be many many different things and also they can represent. They can serve the public. They can be an elected official.

[Music]

Cristen: OK, unladies, tell us your thoughts: Are YOU thinking of taking on elected office? How are you handling the firehose of political news? Hit us up on social @unladylikemedia, email us at hello at unladylike.co OR comment on the thread for this episode in our private facebook group.

Caroline: Head on over to our site, unladylike.co, to check out our sources AND this episode’s transcript!

Cristen: That’s right folks, we’re slowly but surely bringing you transcripts of each episode, and we’ll be working to get the entire back catalog covered.

Caroline: And don’t forget, while you're on the site, you can sign up for our newsletter to get a weekly update on actually good news about women in the world.

Cristen: Sam Lee and Nora Ritchie are our producers. Abigail Keel is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing, sound design, and additional music is by Casey Holford. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario.

Caroline: Special thanks to Brendan Byrnes and Devon Bryant at Stitcher Studios in LA

Cristen: We are your hosts, Cristen Conger

Caroline: and Caroline Ervin. Next week…

Dr. Jen Gunter: Men get described as having a package that's like a gift right. A package is a gift. And women have camel toe. Fuck that it's labial cleavage. And if you don't like it look fucking somewhere else.

Caroline: Just in time for Halloweeeeeen, we're EXORCISING toxic myths about vaginas, vulvas and the whole clitoro-urethral complex with Gwyneth Paltrow's LEAST fave gynecologist, Dr. Jen Gunter

Cristen: Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike so you don’t miss this episode. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

Cristen: Get unladylike.

Caroline: [Pbbt]

Cristen: Was that a queef?

Caroline: yes

Cristen: Perfect closer

[Music out]

Cristen: Next we want to ask you of course about your new book. It is called...

June: I love that you're saying “new book” as though there was an older book.

Cristen: Well you're a novelist right?

Cristen: So, I should reframe. So, June you've written your ONLY book.

June: Thank you.