Transcript | Ep. 136: How to Rock Climb

Kyra: Climbing’s kind of cool in that you can go to the gym and, you know, a 10 year old girl can out climb like a fit CrossFit, bro, you know, so it's like pretty impressive. I feel like there's not a lot of sports that are like that because there's not there's not really any other sport I can think of where like many 10 year old girls could, you know, hold their own against, you know, like fit guys

[theme music]

Cristen: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike, where 10-year old girls can hold their own against fit guys. I’m Cristen.

Caroline: I’m Caroline.

Cristen: Caroline, when you first told me awhile back, Cristen. There’s this badass climber. Her name is Kyra Condie. She’s going to the Olympics, and I think we should invite her on Unladylike, I’ll be honest. I had no idea what you were talking about

Caroline: You don’t keep up with climbing every day?

Cristen: Well, now I am!

Caroline: Ok, so listen: The Tokyo Games this past summer was the debut of Olympic climbing - super cool. Kyra Condie and Brooke Raboutou were the two Americans who competed in the first-ever women’s event. It’s really exciting. And y’all, what blew my mind about Kyra is that she had scoliosis as a kid and had to have 10 of her vertebrae fused together. So, the fact that she’s now one of the world’s best competitive climbers is honestly astounding

Kyra: I've always had a lot of like bravado almost, or like just a lot of self-confidence, and so if I couldn't do something, I'd be like, huh, I bet I can make myself be able to do this. So, not being able to do something I didn't take as indication that I will never be able to do it. I would take it as almost a challenge to be able to eventually do it.

Cristen: The first time I looked at Kyra’s climbing videos on instagram, kid you not, my jaw dropped. Watching her scale these walls and swing her body around … it's this wild mix of explosive strength and subtle movements. And I’m gonna go on her instagram right now and try to describe for y’all what I am talking about. Ok here - here is a video. Imagine - you know how you starfish in your bed, Caroline?

Caroline: Ha! Yes.

Cristen: Imagine that same formation but you are up on a wall.

Caroline: Much less comfortable.

Cristen: Yes, so - she is swinging her body side to side and she manages to fling herself not only up but also over at the same time, grabs onto the higher boulder and then flings her body to a foothold and basically starts the whole thing all over again, back into like starfish position. It’s incredible!

Caroline: I go for walks sometimes?

Cristen: I can do some yoga. Like, what?!?!

Caroline: Yeah, she’s impressive to say the least. So today, we're gonna find out how Kyra went from climbing trees in her backyard to scaling walls at the Olympics. Plus, what it's taken physically and mentally to beat the odds and reach the top of her sport.

[stinger]

Caroline: Ok, so the type of sport climbing we’re talking about today takes place indoors. Y’know, so picture a climbing gym wall with artificial holds. That is Kyra's playing field, and competitive climbing consists of three main events: speed climbing, lead climbing and bouldering. First up, speed climbing.

Kyra: you know, it's pretty self-explanatory- it's entirely speed based and the climb actually never changes. So you're always on the same one. You climb on the same wall in Chicago as you could in Moscow. And um that is a lot more muscle memory based and is all about how fast you can do it.

Caroline: Then there’s lead climbing. You use a harness and a rope and you get just one shot to climb as high as you can on a 15 meter wall in six minutes. The higher you climb, the harder it gets, so lead climbing is really all about endurance.

Cristen: And lastly, there's bouldering, which takes place, you guessed it, on a boulder wall. It's about 4.5 meters tall, so you’re pretty close to the ground and don’t need any harnesses or ropes. Climbers attempt four different fixed routes in a set period of time. This event is where that combo of explosive strength and subtle technique really shines. Bouldering also happens to be Kyra's favorite

Kyra: I personally really enjoy being able to like make mistakes, so both speed is like pretty unforgiving. As soon as you slip at all, you know, you're getting a lot slower of a time. And then lead climbing also is less forgiving. Like if you do something wrong, you get a lot more tired and you're not going to make it as far as on the climb. Whereas in bouldering, if you mess up, you get to fall and then reevaluate and then try the climb again. And you have five minutes to do that. So that's something I really like about it. I also just enjoy the movement a lot more because the movement is really unique and interesting, because you do get multiple tries, they can set a lot more like risky, cool movements in bouldering than they can on lead climbing.

Cristen: I also love that you're like, yeah, with bouldering, you can make a mistake and then try again because I mean, you got like five minutes.

Kyra: So true.

Cristen: This is such a noob question. But I am curious, like when you walk out and you see the wall for the first time, are you able to kind of like do you like mentally like plot, plot the path that you're going to try to, like, follow, or is it literally like hold by hold, like figuring out your path as you go up?

Kyra: Yeah no, actually, you nailed it. It's we call it route reading. So the route is is the climb that you're going to do, like we call lead climbs routes and we call boulder problems problems. But you usually you'll turn around and you'll even watch climbers, if you watch a competition, like mime it out with their hands because they'll be like, OK, I'll go right foot here I'll put right hand and then I'll cross over with my left hand and like you fully read the climb and then you get on. And sometimes you have to reevaluate while you're on the wall and kind of go by feel. But you tend to have an idea before you get on the wall.

Cristen: So, OK, what what is going on in your mind, like what what are you thinking in that moment when you have to compete? Like, are you able to stay - like is there like a mantra you're repeating to yourself or are you just like, totally blank? Like, what's going on?

Kyra: I I think I get kind of razor focused, like I will be really nervous the night before and stuff like a stomach ache and not be able to stop thinking about potential outcomes and stuff like that. And then when it actually becomes the time to compete, if I'm in a good mindset, I am really just focusing on exactly what I'm doing. Something I worked with my sports psych a lot was being present focused. And so that's kind of like while you're climbing, you don't want to be thinking about what will happen if I top this. You want to be thinking about I'm grabbing this hold and now I'm putting my foot here instead of thinking about like, oh, I might win if I, you know, grab the next hold. You want to be thinking about grabbing the next hold.

Caroline: I think that that's a really good metaphor. Like, I think we can all use a little bit of that.

Cristen: Growing up, Kyra scaled everything in sight. Her crib. Monkey bars in the playground. The refrigerator...

Kyra: you know, some kids, like, always want to swim. And for me, I always wanted to be up as high as possible in a tree. I think that was just like kind of natural for me. And I actually know a lot of climbers who, like they were the same way.

Caroline: Then, when she was 10, Kyra went to a friend’s birthday party at a climbing gym. She loved it, and the instructor took notice.

Kyra: And then he was like, you know, like we have a climbing team here. And that's how I really got started. But I remember just being like, I think my words were that he was “annoyingly impressed” with me. As my like as my 10-year-old self, that's like the words I used. Which was just super funny. And then but that's how I ended up on the team,

Cristen: Before she discovered climbing, team sports often frustrated Kyra.

Kyra: I had tried soccer and that really didn't stick with me. I loved the athletic part of it, but I didn't love the the fact that I wasn't in charge of the plays we were doing or they could have me sit out and things like that. Whereas in climbing, that's not really an option. If you go to a competition, you are the person climbing, and it's completely on you whether or not you win or lose. And I think that really suited my personality.

Caroline: Kyra's personality — tenacious and self-confident — also helped her hold her own at the very bro-y climbing gym where she practiced.

Kyra: I was typically this 12-year-old girl in a gym full of like 25-year-old guys.

Cristen: And what was that like?

Kyra: Well, so I think I’ve actually like reflected back on this a lot. And I think I was pretty oblivious to any sort of like sexism at the gym. And I think it's actually a really good thing because it probably could have been pretty discouraging

Cristen: A few instances stuck out though. Like the time the guys at the gym talked about what type of porn Kyra would be in..which they apologized for after Kyra shared that story in an interview.

Kyra: Or another one where somebody told me that, you know, like they told my friend, they're like, I don't understand Kyra's so strong. Like, she doesn't really try very hard. And I was like, well, like, why do you think that? Is that just your toxic masculinity who like getting in the way of thinking that I'm not trying very hard and just writing it off as talent. So like there’s been some situations like that. And I think I've always really held my own against it. And so, like, I confronted those people when that happened basically immediately, which I think is kind of just a personality thing, whereas I think there's definitely been women who have been discouraged from climbing because of situations similar to that in the gym.

Caroline: Now Cristen, I don’t think anyone would be shocked to hear there’s a degree of toxic masculinity floating around some gyms out there. But competitive climbing isn't as bro-y as you might think. In fact, there are more women in the top 100 climbers than there are in the top 100 athletes of any other sport!

Cristen: And one reason that might be, Caroline, is because women are scientifically suited to climbing. Get this - studies have found that our bodies tend to have higher strength-to-weight ratios compared to men, which might give us a slight physiological edge on the wall.

Caroline: So we’re just like a bunch of spiders, basically….

Cristen: Well, yeah! Black widows, dontcha know?!

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, why Kyra was once told she might never climb again.

Caroline: Stick around

Cristen: And watch out for spideys!

[stinger]

Kyra: The classic climber party trick is doing pull ups on a doorframe. Like I think I was at a college party once that was like a bunch of Marines. And they're like I was like, I bet, I bet I can do more pull ups on you. And he was like, no way. And I was like, OK, like do you have a bar. And he's like, no, I was like, cool, we have this doorframe. And he's like, no, that's not you can't you pull ups on that I was like, all right bet like, we can.

Cristen: And how did how did he react?

Kyra: Oh, yeah, he couldn't do one.

Caroline: We’re back with Olympic climber and finger pullups queen Kyra Condie. And y’all, she can do TWENTY.

Cristen: Oh my god. I think my fingers would fall off at that point. Now way before she was showing up Marines, when Kyra was 12 and newly obsessed with competitive climbing, she noticed something that threatened to keep her off the wall forever.

Kyra: I started having, like, pretty bad back pain. But I was the type of kid who would refuse to go see the nurse at school and like wouldn't tell my mom if I was feeling sick because I was, like, too embarrassed to tell her. And so, like, I would just tough it out and go to school. And so, like, by the time that it got to the point that it was hurting pretty bad, like and I was talking about it, like my parents definitely knew something was up because I just never really complained about things like that. And so I was Googling like what could possibly be causing back pain in a 12-year-old, because I felt like an old lady, and I found scoliosis, I think, as one of the potentials.

Caroline: Scoliosis causes the spine to twist and curve. It’s usually mild, but in some cases, it can be debilitating.

Kyra: I happened to know a guy at the gym who was a physical therapist. And so I asked him, and I was like, hey, do you know to check for scoliosis? And he was like, yeah, like like touch your toes. So I touched my toes. And he was like, Yeah, you definitely do. You should talk to your parents, like, go see a doctor.

Cristen: Kyra had S-curve scoliosis. That meant that instead of her spine running straight up and down, it curved at the top and bottom in an S-shape. So when the PT had Kyra touch her toes, one side of her back was noticeably higher than the other.

Caroline: Kyra did some more Googling and found that if the back curvature is between 15 and 40 degrees she’d need a brace. If it was over 45, she would need surgery.

Kyra: And so I was like, OK, I bet it's not bad enough to need surgery, but I bet I need a brace like that. I bet that's what how this is going to go. And I remember the doctor calling me and telling me it was 52 degrees, I think, when they found it and that I would need surgery and I should go consult with surgeons. And I remember just like bursting into tears because I knew that that meant not climbing for a certain amount of time.

Cristen: Kyra and her parents learned she’d need a spinal fusion, and that involves surgeons basically breaking the vertebrae, realigning the spine and inserting metal rods that work as an internal cast. And as the spine heals, it fuses together into a single, solid bone.

Kyra: And so this first doctor really wanted to completely straighten my back, told me it would be nine months until I could climb again and kind of didn't understand that climbing was important to me and told me that one day I would have a family and that sports wouldn't mean very much.

Cristen: No!

Kyra: Yeah, really did not sit well with me, even at 12 years old. And so I think I just stopped listening at that point. When we left this doctor, I told my parents, I was like I don't wanna see him, I don't like him, I don't want to go to the doctor like we need to find a different guy.

Caroline: Luckily, the next surgeon they went to was super supportive. He told Kyra he was confident that she would climb again. So, Kyra and her parents decided to go ahead with the spinal fusion.

Cristen: For the surgery, her doctor fused 10 vertebrae in Kyra’s back - running from the base of her neck to the bottom of her rib cage.

Kyra: So the original doctor wanted to fuse from T2 all the way to L2, which would have been 12 vertebrae. And this doctor said that that was unnecessary and that it would actually probably yeah decrease quality of life and so or more than fusing 10 vertebrae and leaving a slight curve. So that's why he I still have a 25-degree curve in my back, whereas if I had gone with the original doctor, he probably would have completely straightened my curve. But that's unnecessary.

Caroline: After the surgery, Kyra had to take four months off from climbing. She had to relearn how to sit up with basically a rod running through her back. Even now, certain twisting motions like putting on a seatbelt can be really challenging. But overall, the surgery was a success.

Kyra: But I actually think the surgery came at quite a good time for me. I think a lot of kids take sports too seriously at that age and then they burn out. And I think I was maybe approaching that time where I could be burning out on the sport. And so I had climbing taken away from me with this back surgery. And it made me just really appreciate how much it meant to me and how much I love doing it. And when I was able to come back, I haven't stopped for more than a week for vacation, I think, since then. And that was in 2010.

Cristen: For most of her climbing career, Kyra’s fused spine hasn’t slowed her down. But as the sport evolves, it’s forcing her to confront her mobility issues in new ways.

Caroline: Right, and by evolving, we’re talking about changes in how routes up the wall are laid out.

Kyra: Climbs have gotten a lot more subtle. And so you need to do these like really minute movements on the wall that involve, like twisting your hips and like you know putting your body in these really awkward positions. And because I can't bend the same way as other people, I have to find usually riskier ways of doing the same move. But it's usually quite frustrating because I'll be on the wall and I know what I want my body to do, and it just can't do it.

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, Kyra heads to the Olympics, and gives us a peek into elite-climber psychology.

Caroline: Don’t jump off!

Cristen: Unless you got a harness!

Caroline: Or crash pads, yeah.

[stinger]

[CLIP - Olympics announcer]

NBC: Hello and welcome to day 14 of Tokyo 2020. It is a massive moment for climbing, which made its debut at the Olympics this week, and by the end of this session we will have our first women’s climbing Olympic champion

Caroline: In Tokyo this past summer, sport climbing was part of the Olympics for the first time ever. Kyra’s performance in 2018 and 2019 events secured her spot in what was supposed to be the 2020 games. When she finally made it to Tokyo, Kyra’s combined score in the qualifiers put her in 11th place - which meant she didn’t advance to the finals.

Cristen: On the bus back from the event, Kyra took to Instagram. She said that while she was disappointed with her results, “I am, and forever will be, an Olympian.” A few days later, she got even more personal.

Caroline: You posted this really poignant caption on Instagram underneath a photo of you looking like you're having just an absolute blast on the wall. And you say in the caption that, like, you want to stay focused on that feeling, the joyous feeling, because you'd been struggling with feeling like something you couldn't control was holding you back. So what did you mean by that? Like, what did you feel was holding you back?

Kyra: With my back surgery, it is an invisible disability that I have. And I actually qualify for paraclimbing with the back surgery that I have and the lack of mobility that I have because of it. And I think what's really hard about it for me is I have this really kind of intense personality of banging my head against something until I'm able to do it, which I'm like totally good with being able to do. And that one just feels like. I can't bang my head against it in order to get better. So, like, if if I can't do a move because I'm not strong enough to pull through on the move, I'm like, OK, I can do one-arm pull-ups. I can, you know, weight train. I can do all these things so that I can get better at this. And that's sick. Like it's like this cool and exciting prospect of like being able to get better at something. Whereas if I get on a move and it like I just need to be able to bend and I just can't. It's not an exciting feeling. And it's just something that I'm going to have to come to terms with because it's just kind of a reality of my situation. And I think there are things that I can get better at around my back and around this limitation that I have. But yeah, it's a little bit harder to wrap my head around than than other things.

Caroline: So I’m curious, what are some of the must-have attributes of a successful climber? I mean, like, physical, yes, but but also mental.

Kyra: I think what you see on social media is people just doing climbs, being successful, whatever. But for every climb that you see on social media, like, you know, there was like 10 to 20 falls that went into it a lot of times. And that can be really hard on your ego if you're not used to that, I think. And so that's something that's really important, I think, in climbing is the ability to like both learn from failure and not let it destroy you. And like finding the little wins. So like sometimes the win that you have in training is that you got closer to doing a move and not even that you did it. A lot of climbers are quite tenacious for that reason as well. Like we're able to just beat our head against a wall. And then it's also a little bit masochistic for sure. I think, like, your skin on your fingers just gets absolutely terrible sometimes, like you're bleeding out of, like three or four of your tips. But it's also just it's really good if you have a kind of an ADHD personality because it's always different. You never are going into the gym and doing the same thing over and over again. Which is is really satisfying, I think. You can kind of go in and choose your own adventure every time.

Caroline: How has working with a sports psychologist changed your outlook or your approach to what you do?

Kyra: Yeah, so.. she’s helped a lot. I think something she recently brought up and this was post Olympics, actually, was the fact that I am putting myself in these scenarios. So like, it is a choice that I'm doing competitions, that there is this possibility that there will be a move that just totally screws me over. Like and that is a choice that I'm consciously making to because I love competitions and I love doing them and I love the training for it and everything else. And so that's just something that will come along with that, which is just true. It's like my reality. And that's something that actually really helped me reframe it all. We've also I mentioned it, but the present focus aspect of competing and staying present in the moment. And so, you know, if there is a move that's really hard for my back or really hard for me, just maybe not related to that, you know, not thinking about, oh, like what if all the other climbs are the same way or blah blah blah blah blah, like saying present in the moment. And then as soon as I'm past that climb, I'm present into the next moment and climbing on the next climb. And whatever reality is on that that problem like or was on the previous problem is gone. And so now it's focused on this next thing.

Cristen: How how long did it take you or what did it take to really cultivate that presence on the wall?

Kyra: It was shockingly easy to apply once it was told me in such like simple terms, I guess. It's kind of obvious that you want to be focused on what you're doing while you're doing it. But it really just took somebody kind of telling me, like, oh, you should be focused on what you're doing while you're doing it in order to do it. The other thing that I think really helped is not like punishing yourself for having those thoughts. So, like, if you're on the wall and you're thinking like, oh, if I do this, I'll win, you don't wanna be like, oh, no, I shouldn't think that. You want to be like, OK, now bring it back. Like I'm doing this move now instead of panicking about the fact that you did have that thought.

Caroline: Over the past couple of years, Kyra’s used her platform to call for greater inclusivity and diversity in the sport she loves.

Kyra: Climbing has been just something that's really changed my life for the better. And I think the more people that can be introduced to that and have that same connection with both nature and sport that climbing has, I think would just be better. You know, it's it's just good for for people, I guess. And I would love for more people to have access to it and have the ability to do it.

Cristen: But not surprisingly, that’s easier said than done.

Kyra: Climbing is definitely a super privileged sport. The thing I always hear is that, you know, like the outdoors doesn't discriminate. People can go outside no matter what. And that's just not true. You know, there's areas that are really dangerous for certain, for people of certain races to go, especially climbing areas. There's like some in the deep South that like, you know, people would be really uncomfortable going like there's Confederate flags around, things like that. And so that's something that we can really work on. I think back in the day climbing was like quite the White Boys club. And so names of climbs were really disrespectful and not inclusive at all. You know, there's some really sexist ones. There's some really racist ones. And so changing those names, making sure that they're not published in guidebooks and stuff is really important.

Caroline: OK y’all. The deal with route naming is that, usually, the first people to climb the route get to name it. And with a less-than-inclusive history, you wind up with names like — no joke — Kitty Porn (that’s kitty as in kittycat), Third Reich and Slavery Wall. It’s not exactly a welcome sign.

Cristen: Good grief. And then there’s money — I mean, yes, you could just wander into the woods, but you’ll probably want a couple hundred bucks worth of necessary accessories like helmets, shoes, chalk and chalk bags, bouldering pads, and all sorts of other pricey equipment to keep you safe. And even going to a climbing gym will still run you around 15 or 20 bucks a pop, not counting equipment.

Caroline: But a lot of people are working to make climbing more inclusive and accessible. On the financial front, there are a bunch of grants out there to fund excursions. And there’s one gym in Memphis that’s pioneering a pay-what-you-can model.

Cristen: Women and nonbinary climbers have also been banding together. For just a couple examples, a collective called Flash Foxy has grown from an Instagram account to hosting its own women’s climbing festival. There’s also Brown Girls Climb, which started as a small group in DC and now has eight chapters around the country.

Caroline: And the growth of paraclimbing has allowed folks with visual impairments, amputations, and other disabilities to get up on the wall too. USA Climbing is hoping to get paraclimbing included in the 2028 Paralympics.

Kyra: Climbing is for everybody - like you can climb these really steep overhanging, really difficult climbs. You can climb top rope on really good holds. There's so many options and there's so many levels that you can do it at. And so anybody like athletic, not, whatever - like whatever your size, shape or athletic ability, you can definitely climb like you are able to do it, it's something that's really natural for for humans, I think, and. Like you can find enjoyment of it and you can kind of do it however you want, and so I think the more people try it, I think the better. And that you can do it.

Cristen: You MUST go watch Kyra on Instagram at kyra_condie (spelled c-o-n-d-i-e). Plus, if you want to hear from more Olympians, check out our interview with Team USA Weightlifter Mattie Rogers. That episode is called How to Lift Heavy Shit.

Caroline: If y’all wanna get in touch with us, you can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll not only get our undying love, you’ll also get weekly ad-free bonus episodes like our recent recap of LuLaRich, the documentary investigating leisurewear MLM LuLaRoe. Get it over at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week...

Vernice: So imagine you are 27 and 28 years old. And this is where you start and you literally are starting at the beginning. And there you are and all this information is unfolding on your desk, and it's your data and your analysis, along with everybody else at the Commission for Racial Justice and... I did not know then that we were busting open this conversation about environmental justice.

Caroline: We are chatting with environmental activist Vernice Miller-Travis. Vernice teamed up with a group of grassroots civil rights leaders to identify -- for the FIRST time -- how toxic pollution and systemic racism are deeply entwined in the US.

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