Transcript | Ep. 123: Ask Unladylike: Late Bloomers with Forever35

Kate: I still feel like there's a constant experience of figuring out who the hell I am. And it's always changing. And I don't know if that is late blooming or the or the experience of like re-blooming. Is that a thing? Am I a perennial kind of flower or am I an annual? I don't know.

Cristen: I'm going to go ahead and say that reblooming, yes, is a thing.

Caroline: Yeah.

Cristen: I mean.

Kate: OK, let's rebloom

[theme music]

Cristen: Hey y’all and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Cristen.

Caroline: I’m Caroline.

Cristen: Caroline, how are you blooming today?

Caroline: Oh, so fluffy and bright. How are you blooming?

Cristen: You know, I feel like maybe I’ve lost a couple petals on the floor, but hanging in there! Hanging in there. So, this episode is another installment of Ask Unladylike, where we answer y'all’s advice requests, and today's big theme is not blooming plants, per se, but rather timing. The timing of life.

Caroline: Yeah, you know, dealing with feeling like you’re too late to life milestones or you know too early for aging. And we have the perfect experts to help us answer your questions: Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, co-hosts of the self-care podcast Forever35.

Cristen: Speaking of timing, Doree JUST put out a new book about these very ideas called Thanks for Waiting: The Joy (& Weirdness) of Being a Late Bloomer.

Doree: Now, kind of looking back, it does feel like turning 40, which I think when you're 25 seems like 85, actually feels like the beginning of like the life I was supposed to lead and the person I was supposed to become. I'm like calmer. I'm more confident in myself. I just feel like I'm looking at the world differently. And I guess that's kind of why I view myself as a quote unquote, late bloomer.

Caroline: Cristen, I’m hovering right here at 37 and a half, and I’m optimistic that Doree is right — that maybe I still have some time to fully bloom!

Cristen: Hard same. So first up, we’re going to talk to Doree and Kate more about their own late bloomer learning experiences. Then we’ll get into some questions from Unladylike listeners.

Caroline: Well, Cristen - what are we waiting for?!

Cristen: NOTHING! Let’s cue the music and get to it!

[stinger]

Cristen: All right

Caroline: Well, Doree and Kate, thank you so much for being here. We are so excited to talk to you all today.

Doree: We're excited to be here.

Cristen: So we are narrowing in on the concept of being a late bloomer and sort of all of the the milestones of it all. So question for each of you. Do you identify as a late bloomer?

Doree: Well, I mean, I wrote a book about being a late bloomer, so I guess I do. But it was something I hadn’t like fully wrapped my head around for a long time until one day in my late 30s, I was sort of like huh like it was like I looked around and I was like, oh, wait, that person has a baby. That person has a baby. Like- the baby thing. I had been in a pretty serious relationship in my late 20s and early 30s, and we broke up when I was 33. It, you know, for a while it seemed like we were going to get married and then we didn't, obviously. And after that I felt a little bit at sea. I felt like I didn't want to be a person who was like desperate, quote unquote, to get married, I had this like real deep-seated fear of being perceived as desperate, which I think is like patriarchy, obviously, but at the time I couldn't fully identify that. And I had internalized a lot of bullshit about being like the cool girl, which did not really do me any favors when I was dating because I was never like fully myself, because I was always trying to be someone who I thought the other person wanted. Like I was trying to be this, like, projection that, like, didn't exist. And it took me a while to figure that out and and cope with the pressures that I was putting on myself to, you know, meet someone and get married and have a baby and like, you know, nothing nothing works out exactly the way you - you plan, and that was also something that I had to come to terms with, right, like. The loss of control can be pretty scary.

Kate: I had always kind of growing up and into my early 20s, identified maybe not as a late bloomer, but as someone who didn't know what they were doing with their lives and who - I just never really had a clear sense of who I was. And I also, in my early 20s, wasn't doing a great job of, like managing my finances. And I was - I was, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do for a career. And I - I just for the first quarter of my life, I - I felt like everybody knew who they were and what they wanted to do and who they wanted to be, and also that it felt like every person I knew had a passion or a thing that they were good at. And I think like, I was passionate about stuff, but I never really knew my thing until I was 22. And I tried improv comedy for the first time and it felt - it was literally - not to sound too cheesy, but it was like coming home to myself. It was like, oh, this is the thing I'm built to do. And I had never had that experience in my whole life. It felt like, you know, like my friends who were like 12, they all had their things. And I just was kind of like bumbling along. And I think a lot of that was created by this kind of achiever culture that's so prevalent and also the pressure that's put on kids to like have these, you know, activities and skills that will then go on your college application. You know, there was just this constant pressure to know these things about yourself at a young age, and I didn't. And so in that regard, I felt like such an outsider, like such a black sheep of the world. And - and in hindsight, I wish I had known that that was OK.

Caroline: Did y'all ever feel like growing up there were moments or milestones that you were behind on that like classmates or peers or friends were like already hitting? And how did that make you feel?

Doree: I always felt like other girls had gotten this memo about, like how to be a girl that I had just kind of missed. And I felt this especially acutely at sleep away camp. It was - it just felt like there were all these girls there who were my age. And, you know, the first summer I went, I was 9. So I was young. But, you know, they were like putting on lip gloss and like, you know, teasing their bangs because this was the 80s and like loudly announcing which boys they had crushes on, and I was like, oh, OK, you know, this is what we're doing, I guess. Like it was all so foreign to me and I - and I was just like, oh, I guess that's like what happens? And then I do think I always felt not just like behind, but also sort of like a little clueless.

Caroline: Yeah, I I sympathize, like to this day, I literally don't know how other people dress themselves.

Kate: I mean, same.

Cristen: Well, let’s get into some advice, because I think this is an excellent panel for the questions we have today.

Cristen: The first one is from a long-time listener and late-bloomer named Camille. And Camille writes, "Ultimate late bloomer here. I am a 33-year-old cis-het Black woman who has never really dated and is still a virgin. I otherwise have my shit together. No kids, obviously. Stable health care job, my own car, and an apartment without roommates. Every year, I think this is the year I'll start dating. One of my goals for 2020 was to seriously look at how to put myself out there. And then the pandemic happened. I tried online dating, pre-pandemic and during, and I find it intolerable.It seems like everyone on the Internet is ready to sleep with each other once the pandemic is over. So do you have any suggestions on how to get out there? I think I would be able to deal with the virginity aspect if I met someone I liked. But first I would have to meet someone I liked. Any help would be greatly appreciated.”

Doree: OK, I have a lot of thoughts about this, and this is also something that I do write about in my book quite a bit, because the dating piece of the puzzle was something that took me a while to figure out. And I think the first thing to just like understand is that very few people like online dating. It’s hard, it takes up a lot of time, you're meeting strangers, you're constantly putting yourself out there. But I tried to kind of like - one thing we talk about on Forever35 a lot is reframing the narrative. And I did try to like reframe the narrative around dating. And one of the ways I did that was really lowering my expectations of what I wanted out of the date. Which is not lowering my standards or or, you know, becoming like super cynical about it, but just saying, like, I'm not going into this thinking, I'm meeting the man I'm going to marry. I'm going into this thinking like I'm going to have a drink with someone who could be an interesting person and I'm going to have an interesting conversation with them. And I noticed that that really, like, calmed me, because when you put so many expectations into one date or one meeting with someone, like you're just setting yourself up for disappointment, right? Like, there's almost no way that that one person can fulfill those expectations that you've set up. And so I would suggest viewing online dating as just like a way to meet some interesting people. So that's one thing. The other thing is, like the way to start dating is to start dating. Like I - I did find that as I went on more and more dates with more and more people I became better at just like having conversations with strangers. And I also got better at, like, figuring out who I liked. You know, I was so worried that people were going to reject me that I didn't even think about, like, wait, what if I don't like them? That, like that almost didn't even cross my mind. It was more like, oh, my God, is this person going to like me? And then as I went on more and more dates, it was like, well, wait, I can - like I have I have agency here. I can decide if I don't like someone like this is also up to me, and I think, I honestly do think it's a situation where, like, quantity influences quality. So good luck. I know this is so hard.

Kate: Doree, you've also talked about how you went through a time where you said yes to like everything.

Doree: Yes.

Kate: Like yes to going out with friends, yes to going to a concert, even if you were, like, not into it. Yes to dates with people you might not date. And how that kind of opened up opportunity for you to both like have new experiences, but also meet people you might not have met.

Doree: Yes. And I thank you, Kate, for reminding me of things that I wrote in my book that I forgot about

Kate: That’s what I'm here for. I'm your hype person.

Doree: It's a it's good practice to take yourself out of your comfort zone because then you find that like your comfort zone shifts and the things that used to scare you so much don't scare you as much anymore. I think another difficult thing about online dating is that it almost allows us to be too picky because we're presented with all of this information before we even meet someone. So you can eliminate someone as a possibility of going on a date because like they had a typo in their online dating profile, whereas like maybe if you had just met them in real life, you would have liked them.

Cristen: And I'm just going to add, Camille, you sound like a catch.

Caroline: I know.

Cristen: So, I mean snaps to you for having all of your shit together.

Caroline: Camille, you have an apartment with no roommates.

Cristen: I know.

Kate: Yeah.

Caroline: That's I can't even say that right now. So good luck, Camille.

Cristen: We’re gonna take a quick break. When we come back, Kate and Doree help listeners navigate the pregnancy pressure cooker.

Caroline: Stick around!

[midroll ad 1]

Caroline: And we are back! All right so, our next question is from Metty, who is dealing with polycystic ovarian syndrome and pregnancy pressure. So Metty writes, “I suffer from PC OS, the main symptom that it has gifted me with is the difficulty of getting pregnant. As women, we are taught from a young age that we are meant to have children. But when that cannot happen, it fucks with you. I'm not talking just physically, but also mentally, spiritually and sexually. I've been trying to conceive for three years. Not only has it thrown me into a whirlwind of depression, but it makes me feel like less of a woman. This way of thinking has taken over my entire being and has depleted a lot of the confidence I once had. I tell myself that it is society that has ingrained this definition of womanhood in my brain and that I am an amazing woman with or without children. But every month when my period comes, that little voice wins and makes me feel less than. Why does our societal definition of a woman always have children in it? Am I the only one that feels like less of a woman because of the difficulty getting pregnant? How can I deal with the pressure from society and from within?”

Kate: Oof. That is really hard. Just want to first say that we see you, because that is so unfair in so many ways to to have to go through that. I don't have experience personally with infertility, but I do have experience as a woman in which there is a constant I mean, constant pressure to conceive, to lean into the being a parent. And I think, Metty, I think you are - sound so aware of what you are experiencing, which is so important, like you are already doing the hard thing, especially acknowledging the kind of bizarro, like puritanical pressure women are under to just get knocked up as if it's something that all bodies who have a uterus are going to be able to just do. It's so unreasonable. I think ultimately you can only give yourself grace because it's not going to come externally. So I think you're already doing it. I would hope that you're able to see like to give yourself, you know, a pat on the back for already navigating how shitty this is.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, my husband and I struggled with infertility for a few years before I got pregnant with my son, and I mean, that was why I started a podcast about it, because it is super lonely and there is like a weird amount of shame and stigma associated with it when there shouldn't be. It's - it's just like our bodies, you know, it's just a thing. It's a fact. And and. Some people have more trouble than others, and I am just here to say like. I would like anyone who's struggling with infertility to give yourself the gift of allowing yourself to not feel shame around it. There's so many people who are also struggling and it's not something to be embarrassed about so I just want to say that, um. And I know it's hard for a lot of people to talk about publicly, but there are so many resources for people who are going through infertility. And I found it really comforting to talk to other people who are going through infertility. And so that might be something that you want to seek out.

Cristen: And one thing that I would also add is giving yourself the gift of of grace around, you know, the shame and stigma surrounding infertility, but also as I hear her kind of rationalizing, like I know in my head, like I know that this is patriarchy. I know that it's bullshit. Like also give yourself grace in that realm to feel how you're feeling. You know, I think sometimes, like with I know with my own feminism, I can find myself in similar, you know, going back and forth in my head of, like, almost beating myself up a little bit of like, well, I shouldn't feel so bad about this because I know, you know, I know that this is all this all social construct and patriarchy. But the fact of the matter is like it feels shitty and it's OK. And I think that that's also something that you can you can give yourself too, of validating those - those feelings and the pressure that is - is very real and that you're experiencing. And you're definitely not alone.

Doree: Yeah, and and it's also like it's OK to want a baby. Like, if you want a baby, you want a baby, like and if you don't, you don't, that's - and that's fine. I felt this way also about wanting to get married. I was like, wait, it's just the patriarchy telling me that I want to get married when in fact, like, I did want to meet someone and fall in love and get married. And like, that's OK.

Kate: As Caroline said, when Caroline and Cristen were guests on Forever 35, “Two things can be true.”

Caroline: I was just thinking that!

Doree: indeed. Indeed!

Caroline: We can be boiled in a patriarchal stew of bullshit, but we could also want to get married and have babies. And that's fine.

Kate: Yes. Amen.

Cristen: OK, so sort of staying on theme a little bit, our next letter comes from Sarah who writes, “I turned 32 this year, and my husband and I still don't know if we want kids.” Oh, sorry. I'm just already relating. Sarah, I hear you. OK, here we go. “We both go back and forth, surprisingly, at the same time. I don't know what the fuck that means, but we just aren't sure. We can't really afford to freeze my eggs or adopt right now. And who knows if we'll be able to afford adoption in the future. But I'm nervous about my so-called biological clock running out if I actually do wind up wanting kids in the future. There is also unspoken pressure from both sides of our family. So there's that too. Surprising, I know, haha. I know this is one of the ultimate conundrums of life, but do you have any tips on how to at least deal with those feelings?”

Kate: I have thought a lot about this as a person who has written about parenting a lot in my job, and my general advice would be, live your life as if you are not having kids. And if you firmly swing the other way, then I believe that you will figure it out or you will find a way to experience what it means to parent in a different way. Like, for example, I have friends in my life who have decided not to have children and they are really active in my kid's lives from afar. They have found ways to have those kinds of relationships or experiences without having it be a child that is considered, quote unquote, their own. And really, I think looking to people who have made the choice not to have kids just to learn more about it, because the story we most often hear is like we had kids, you know, like that's all. People are just bombarded with parenting stuff constantly. But there are so many people living fulfilled lives without children. And I think it's really important to kind of examine and celebrate that, and so if you can find examples of that to kind of help you navigate your decision making, I think I think that might help. I mean, it's very hard to separate the external pressure to have children from one's, or at least I found this, from one's own desire. Like its they become so intertwined. And I think it does not say anything about you to choose not to have children. I think it's a fantastic decision for so many people. And I say this as a person with two kids. Having kids is frickin hard. It's a ton of work. It's a ton of resources, financial stress. I mean, it's a lot. there is no shame in opting out of that at all. So give yourself - like know that you can make that choice and that it will be OK and that you will find other ways to find maternal or paternal fulfillment in your life elsewhere.

Caroline: Yeah, I - so I am someone who you know, I know I do not want kids. I have never wanted kids. But what I have heard is that there's never a good time to have kids. There's never like-.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: No.

Caroline: You don't wake up one day and you're like, oh my God, I have literally the perfect amount of money, energy, time, resources, family support, child care. Everything is perfect. Now's the time. Get pregnant! I've heard that's not a thing. So if you are on the fence, I don't know what it's like to be on the fence. So I cannot offer advice or perspective there. But as someone who is so far off the fence, I would say if that is part of your ambivalence, concern, fear, but otherwise, if time and money were no object and you realize, oh, I I still want a baby or a human in my life, maybe go for it? Parents, is that crazy advice?

Doree: I don't think that's crazy advice. I think there's almost never a quote unquote good time. What I was going to say is something that - some advice someone gave me when my husband and I were discussing whether or not to try for a second kid, which was to picture what you want your life to look like in 20 years. And like, what does that life look like? And if you're picturing like a house full of kids, then that might be a sign that, like, you know, you do want kids. If you if you picture your life with your partner on, like a farm with a bunch of dogs, then like maybe you don't want kids. But I think it's a useful exercise to kind of take yourself out of the intense pressure of the moment and try to think about future you and what kind of life future you would like to be leading. So maybe give that a shot and see - see where your mind takes you.

Kate: Well and the other thing is that as the previous listener, you know, really exemplified like you can mentally, like, make the dec - mutual decision to decide to try to have a child, but you don't know how it's going to go. It took me about a year to get pregnant with my first kid. The second one, it was like a day. We decided and that was like two days later, I was like, oh, shit, I guess we are doing this now. So that's what's so maddening about the whole experience. And - and I think the previous listener really spoke really profoundly to that. So, yeah, that's good advice. I like what y'all just said.

Caroline: We’re going to take another quick break.

Cristen: When we come back, tick tock friends, because it’s time to talk about aging and when menopause sneaks up on you

Caroline: Oh good, something simple and easy!

Cristen: Stick around!

[midroll ad 2]

Cristen: Ok friends, we’re back!

Caroline: Our final question is from Jennifer, who is struggling with some feelings about aging and menopause, and why did no one warn her? So Jennifer writes, “I became officially menopausal this past Valentine's Day. So now I am becoming a dried up old lady. Starting a couple of years ago, I've been thinking, who is that in the mirror? I am very close to 56. And people who don't know my age never think I'm this old. But the feelings I have about changes I see in my appearance and other physical changes blindsided me completely. It is my very femininity and self-identification in question. It is nothing short of mourning. I am too old to be what I thought I was, but too young to be that adorable, stylish old lady who still takes care of herself. I am stuck in between, and I feel guilty for being shallow and vain. Why can't I rationalize this away? How do I age without seeing myself as a shriveled and dried up old lady?”

Doree: This this is hard, and this I feel like this is something that I've really struggled with, even as we've been doing the podcast, and it does feel like a real both-things-can-be-true kind of situation where like we can simultaneously be grateful for the privilege of aging because not everyone gets to do that, and be sad about like the decay that is staring us in the mirror because it is sad to watch ourselves change. Right. Like, I don't want to take that away from anyone, like. It's weird to look in the mirror one day and not recognize the person staring back at you, and I think it's important for us to acknowledge that.

Kate: I think one thing that helps in this area is having the conversation, and so I'm really glad that this person asked because it's not talked about. And actually we were - we were we just interviewed Margaret Cho, and she made the point, like especially in Hollywood, like when women turn 35, they essentially disappear - like women actors - and then they reappear in their like late 70s playing like a quaint grandma. And everybody's like, oh, yay, they're back. But like this massive chunk of livelihood is just gone because it's this, quote unquote, like undesirable time when we're aging. And this is all again, these are just all like bullshit structures that we all see. And yet we also have to allow ourselves to - to feel them. Like, I also think it is OK to do things to your body if you want to change it, like your face, if you want to go talk to a dermatologist about Botox or injectables or lasers or whatever, and that's something you want to spend money on and it will make you ultimately feel better and your daily existence will be enhanced, then who am I to stop you? You know, like, go to town. Those things, even though we - we're conditioned to both believe they are superficial and bad and also necessary and everybody's like, you know, you can't you kind of can't win either - either way. So that's like that's your decision. And that all that stuff is out there if you want to financially invest your money in it.

Caroline: And I would say, too, that her - her fears about not only feeling, being, looking older, but also like losing her femininity.

Kate: Yeah

Caroline: Jennifer, I feel like that's not you - that's not a you problem. That's like a society-at-large problem.

Kate: A hundred percent.

Caroline: Because you are no less you, you are no less a woman just because you've hit a certain age or you started menopause or whatever the aging and hormonal milestone might be. I am sorry that we live in this culture where that is a thing, where so many of us are made to feel less than because of how we look, or the way we're aging, or that our bodies have either started or stopped doing something. And I think that the idea of talking about it is the right one. I think - I feel like we do talk about menopause and perimenopause more than definitely in my mom's generation. It was always meant to feel like this scary, secret, horrible thing that is inflicted upon people. And I feel like we're going more towards a place where we can talk about it as a fact of life, because it is.

Kate: I also think, first of all, yes, to everything that you just said, Caroline, and I think finding other people in your life or a smaller communities, so not like the world, but where your femininity, which is important to you, is embraced and celebrated, whether that's with your sexual partner and intimacy, like whether it is in like a dance class or whatever, whatever it looks like for you individually, like you haven't lost that part of you, even though we are conditioned to believe that we have. And I do think aging is also is very empowering, and if you you know, like just because we're told that it's not doesn't mean that it can't be so.

Doree: Yeah, this is like the eternal struggle.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: And I feel like it's also hard when, again, it's one of those things where I feel like I'm constantly telling myself to not be, you know, ashamed of aging. And then that pressure that I put on myself to not be ashamed of aging just like makes me more stressed.

Kate: Yeah. Then you feel bad.

Doree: Yeah. So I don't know. It's tough. We see you.

Kate: And also - it's also utter bullshit that conversations about perimenopause and menopause, these things are not studied because no one cares about the health of - of women. Like, it's just - it's such bullshit. So even by questioning it and thinking about it, like you are making a change because it's - it's this thing that like if you have this body, you are probably going to go through at some point in your life. Half of our society is going through it, sweating and hot flashing and having all these physical issues. And it's and it's like all these other things, like having menstrual cramps or whatever it is, miscarriage, that that we have been conditioned to do silently. And it's.

Doree: Yeah

Kate: So unfair. And so I just want to commend you for calling bullshit on it.

Cristen: Yes, And I would also like to call back to the earlier concept you introduced of re-blooming you know, I went back and Jennifer, in your very brief email to us, the word old came up five times, and I totally get that. But I also - to me, it was telling of old in the sense of - old in a negative sense. And I wonder if maybe reframing this new phase that you're entering in away from becoming an old lady, but maybe you're just re-blooming, and that sounds kind of exciting. But maybe this is also super easy for me to say because I'm 36, but at the same time, I feel like I'm old. And so I'm also just telling myself to do this while - while giving this advice to you. And I'm really glad that you wrote in to ask us about it, because I think it's a conversation too, that like I just think we need to be having more because the age struggle and the sexism of it all is it's total bullshit. I'm excited for your re-blooming. I mean, you sound pretty fabulous.

Kate: I mean, have we ever heard a woman referred to as a silver fox?

Cristen: God no.

Kate: That's always given to like older men with gray hair. But like this kind of like hot aging is never celebrated in - with women when it should be so start. You know what? If you're going gray claim Silver Fox as your own.

Cristen: For some reason, the - the first silver - lady silver fox that came to my mind was Janet Yellen. Well, Janet Yellen.

Caroline: What the fuck?

Kate: Janet is a silver fox.

Doree: I was thinking Helen Mirren.

Cristen: Yes. Yes. There we go, legit legit silver

Doree: But, you know, Janet Yellen works.

Cristen: She does. She's hustling.

Cristen: You can find Kate on instagram @katespencer, Doree @doree — with two Es! — and of course, subscribe to the Forever35 podcast. While you’re at it, be sure to pick up a copy of Doree’s new book, Thanks for Waiting, AND check out their new column for InStyle called The New Age.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Michele O’Brien is our associate producer. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Caroline Ervin

Cristen: And Cristen Conger of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week...

Deanna Cook: I feel like sometimes people underestimate the power it is to not be discriminated because of your hair. I feel like sometimes people think, oh, it's just hair, but it's like it's really not it really is a part of people's identities and it is so important in schools and workplaces for honestly everyone.

Cristen: We are talking to twin sisters Mya and Deanna Cook. They were banned from all sorts of high school activities — all because they wore their hair in box braids. That episode is the first in our 3-part series on head hair! We’ll be talking hair discrimination, hair color and hair loss.

Caroline: You don’t want to miss that series! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Cristen: And remember, got a problem?

Caroline: Get Unladylike.