Transcript | Ep. 115: Calling Bullsh*t with Mazie Hirono

Sen. Hirono: I think that righteous anger is not an out of control kind of an anger, because I think I express an anger, but I don't think anybody would say I'm out of control. When I used to call Trump a grifter, a liar, a misogynist. I was very serious when I said those things.

Cristen: We refer to it here on Unladylike as productive rage.

Sen. Hirono: Yes. I think that's a really good way to describe it.

[Theme music]

Cristen: Hey y’all, and welcome to Unladylike. I’m Cristen.

Caroline: I’m Caroline, and today, we're harnessing our productive rage with Sen. Mazie Hirono from Hawaii. In 2012, Hirono became Hawaii’s first female senator and the first Asian American woman EVER elected to the Senate. She's the only immigrant currently serving in the Senate and she just came out with a new memoir called Heart of Fire: An Immigrant Daughter’s Story.

Cristen: Caroline, the senator is also the highest ranking government official we have had on Unladylike. I mean, do we need a security detail now?

Caroline: I think that’s how that works, yeah.

Cristen: During her 50-year career in politics, Hirono has made a name for herself championing issues like public healthcare, workers' rights and immigration.

Caroline: She also emerged as a fierce opponent of the Trump administration. Take for instance, Brett Kavanaugh's Supreme Court hearings in 2018. When asked about whether Christine Blasey Ford should be allowed to testify, here's what the Senator told ABC News.

[ABC News clip]
Sen. Hirono: We’re not consulted at all. I would like to have us come together, figure out what is the best way to proceed. Not this seat of the pants stuff. And the latest being a letter from the Chairman to the Democrats saying we have done everything we can to contact her. That is such bullshit. I can hardly stand it.

Caroline: The senator’s communications director said, ummm. You just said bullshit on TV.

Sen. Hirono: I said no, I said BS. He said no, you didn’t. Oh ok. These are not scripted moments from me, by the way. Before I go on camera, I certainly because I'm a Democrat, which means that I have to be very prepared right. We're very analytical that way, we have to have our facts straight and all that. But that doesn't mean that I want to get up and not say, “This is such bullshit, I can't stand it.” So I realized that it was it was something that people welcomed somebody who would get up and say those things in a very straightforward what I would call a very plain way. During the pre-covid time, I would be traveling. I'd be in New York or wherever I am, people would come up to me and thank me for how I speak about the things that they cared about in ways that they thought about. And I realized how it was important for me to speak out, and especially for people whose voices are not heard in the halls of Congress.

Cristen: Speaking out has gotten folks listening — and talking. Esquire magazine has hailed her as "a Legitimate Badass of the Senate. The Daily Dot tallied up 11 Times Mazie Hirono Had Zero Fucks to Give, and The Cut published A Running List of Every Time Sen. Mazie Hirono Called BS.

Caroline: She’s also been calling BS on anti-Asian racism and violence: Her COVID-19 Hate Crimes Act just passed the Senate with only one opposing vote. She and Sen. Tammy Duckworth also successfully lobbied the Biden White House to increase AAPI representation in the administration.

Cristen: And that barely scratches the surface of all that Sen. Hirono has accomplished and how she became a political force to be reckoned with.

Caroline: A quick note that our audio quality is a little less than crystal clear in some moments of today's interview. Our mics picked up a bit of a hum in Senator Hirono's office - lets just call it the buzz of democracy at work!

[Stinger]

Caroline: At 73 years old, Sen. Hirono has spent the vast majority of her life in public office. She served in the Hawaii state house, went on to be the lieutenant governor of Hawaii. Then, after three terms as a US Representative, Hirono won her historic seat in the US Senate.

Cristen: She chalks up her success to her mother and the dogged determination she role modeled. When Mazie was 8 years old, her mother fled from Japan to Hawaii with Mazie and her brother to escape their abusive father.

Caroline: Well, in your memoir, you write, “My deep emotional connection to my mother is the current that has driven my entire life. Everything I have achieved is a testament to her fortitude.” How so?

Sen. Hirono: She had so much courage, and I have said publicly as well as to my mom, I - there's nothing I can do that matches what you did and the courage it took for her to escape from my father, abusive marriage and to bring three children. That just doesn't happen in Japan. And so it took tremendous courage, and she had to do it all. She had to plot to do it. My father never found out we had left the country, by the way, that was how negligent he was, until many years later when he happened to ask, oh, where's my family? Because my mother had been with my grandparents who raised me, my maternal grandparents who raised me in Japan from the time I was 3 to the time I came here. So tremendous courage. And we come to this country. We have nothing. We didn't know anything about social safety net or anything. My mother just worked hard. We had very little material things. But what I saw was just tremendous determination. That is the heart of fire, tremendous determination, and she never whined, and she never complained. She just went about doing what she needed to do to support us. How can I not be affected by a woman like that? And she stood up for herself, and the really wonderful thing is that she never imposed what I would call sort of stereotypical expectations of me, not once did she ever say to me, “When are you going to get married and when are you going to have children,” not once. Can you imagine?

Cristen: No.

Sen. Hirono: I mean at a time when women my age, we were all supposed to get married and have children and whatever. My mother totally changed my life by bringing me to this country. So she is my she is my guide. And and now that she's gone and I think of all the the the quiet strength that she had, but she would stand up for herself. She would vocalize. And and so I I am her daughter.

Cristen: Well, OK, so since this is unladylike, we have to ask you about The Feminine Mystique.

Sen. Hirono: Oh, yes.

Cristen: So this, of course, is a classic in the feminist canon. And in your book, you really emphasize its importance in your life. How did you come to read it and what effect did it have on you?

Sen. Hirono: I read it in college. Literally a light bulb went on my head because up to that point, in spite of the fact that I was raised in what I would call a nontraditional household with a very, very brave, unusual mother, I still was not immune from the the what I would call the dominant culture's expectations. So until I read that book, I thought, well, I'll get my bachelor's degree, I'll get married. I’ll have children. I read that book. A light bulb went on. I thought, what the heck am I thinking? And so at that point, I decided, why should I expect some guy to take care of me?

Caroline: How did the realization feel at the time, that light bulb moment and how did it - how did it eventually factor into your political ambitions?

Sen. Hirono: That light bulb that went on my head, I decided that I was I wasn't going to take the path of getting married, that I in fact, for a long time getting married and having children were not my top priorities. And then as I got more involved in politics, that's where I wanted to make a difference. And of course, by the time I was elected to office, I was in my early thirties. And so I just wanted to do a good job there, and I and I knew that if I had taken another path, maybe I wouldn't be doing all of that. And it was really important to me to give back in that way. But one of the funny things is that at 40, I announced to my staff, I think I'll get married now. We all had a really big laugh about that.

Cristen: I love that. And I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I will say that was one of my favorite lines, because I was like, yes, of course at 40 like you’ve you've lived a full life. You know what you want by this point, like

Sen. Hirono: I thought maybe I could handle getting married. Maybe I could pay a little attention to that, although I knew that I could not marry any person who was not supportive, understanding and did not importantly compete with me because I had had that already.

Caroline: Right. Yeah. You need someone who. Yeah. Not only doesn't compete with you, but but understands.

Sen. Hirono: Yes.

Caroline: Sort of the rigors of the job and that you're not going to be home cooking dinner every night.

Sen. Hirono: Oh gosh no.

Cristen: The senator DID eventually marry a couple years later. She and her husband, Leighton, have been together now for more than 30 years

Caroline: Hirono's feminist awakening prepared to to find a true life partner. It ALSO helped her endure the sexist slings and arrows of politics. But once she made it into the Senate, she learned that even staunch feminists can buy into racial stereotypes...

Cristen: In your memoir, Heart of Fire, you cite some of your personal experiences with being racially stereotyped, and one story in particular really jumped out, so could you tell our listeners the story about this kind of confrontational moment that you had with former Sen. Barbara Mikulski when you were hoping to get a seat on the Appropriations Committee?

Sen. Hirono: I want to start by saying that I am very fond of Barbara and we are friends. At that time, when I wanted to be on the Appropriations Committee, which she chaired, I was on the floor of the Senate, and she started to talk to me about how I should behave a certain way. I needed to be more this or more that. And at that time I was on the floor of the Senate. I wasn't going to get into a big argument with her. But after that, she, as the dean of the women, would occasionally bring all the women bipartisan to her hideout and we'd talk. But after one of these events, all the Democratic - many of the Democratic women senators that sat in her hideaway to continue our discussions and she started in on how, “Yes, like I said to Mazie” — something like this — said that, you know, “She needs to speak out more” or whatever. And I just looked at her and said, “You know, you don't even know what it took for me to get here.” And I said basically that “I have not busted my ass to get here to be lectured by you.” I'm paraphrasing, but it was like that, and she apologized immediately, but it showed me that because as an Asian person in the culture that I came from, I was not particularly vocal. I was always very determined, but I just didn't have to be so vocal about it. And I think that there were certain stereotype notions about me as an Asian, as an Asian woman that came to the fore. But she never went there after that. And in fact, she said, “I don't - I don't know what I was thinking when I said those things to you.” And she said that after it became very clear that I was not some meek Asian person, I began to speak out quite strongly against the Trump administration and their mindless cruelties.

Cristen: And well, I also want to note that I especially wanted to ask you about that moment, not because - not to pit - try to pit you two against each other, but it seemed like in the way that you describe it in your memoir, you were really taken aback because here was this woman. She was the longest serving woman in Congress and a trailblazing feminist. And yet she was still perpetuating, you know, these these kinds of stereotypes. And I was curious. In that moment. Why it did kind of feel so stunning to you.

Sen. Hirono: What I recognized was that she had some notions about me that were, in my view of very stereotyping and that I had encountered that quite frequently among some of my other colleagues, and so that I know that they don't think of me that way now. In fact, I just had a conversation with some of my male colleagues and I said, had you ever before me ever had to deal or experience a Japanese, an Asian colleague? And and these are really progressive men. And they had not. So along I come and so.

Cristen: Why did you ask them that question?

Sen. Hirono: Because I was curious to know if they - we were talking about stereotypes and the sex role stereotyping that most women have to deal with in our country. And when you're an Asian woman, there is that element of it and the sexualizing of Asian women. I think that certainly manifested itself in a tragic way with the Atlanta shootings. So I just asked them, by the way, have you guys ever before me had any experience with a Japanese colleague? Well, of course not, because I'm the first Asian woman to ever get elected to the Senate. You know I've always said that we should not judge a book by its cover, because I have always been - there have been many times when I was judged by my cover and I've been relatively quiet in the way I get things done, but very determined. And that in an arena where being vocal and aggressive and confrontational is rewarded, that is the sort of the stereotypical male model of leadership. And I know for a fact that there are a lot of women who don't who aren't that way, who are very, very effective. So I hope that we also begin to change the notions about what makes a leader a leader.

Cristen: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, we’re rewinding to Hirono’s start in politics and why some of her male colleagues in the Hawaii legislature nicknamed her the Ice Queen.

Caroline: Stick around.

[Stinger]

Caroline: We’re back with Sen. Mazie Hirono.

Cristen: Well so, as a Japanese American growing up in Hawaii, as you write about in the memoir, you you were not a racial minority. And I'm curious how you think that experience impacted the arc of your political career vs. had you grown up on the mainland where you would have been a minority?

Sen. Hirono: Well, in Hawaii, there is no racial group that is in the majority. That has a lot to do with why we get along. Oh, there is racism in Hawaii, but generally if they kind of keep it to themselves because you know the aloha spirit and those are things that we aspire to. I think on the mainland there was a lot more overt discrimination against the other. And so I'm really glad to have been in a place like Hawaii where we really support other races. We eat each other's foods. There's you know the metaphor is a plate lunch, which everybody in Hawaii knows what a plate lunch is, but it consists of this from one racial group. I mean, you can have chow fun or something. You can have kalbi from the Korean culture. You can have rice and all of that mixed together in a mixed plate. That is Hawaii. It's a mixed-plate plate lunch.

Caroline: Sen. Hirono’s sense of community growing up in Hawaii helped shape her political ambitions. When she first got to college, she thought she’d become a therapist or social worker. But working at a summer camp for low-income native Hawaiian kids completely changed her perspective. The issues that kids and their families were facing didn’t have simple fixes — they were systemic.

Cristen: There was also the Vietnam War. Throughout high school and into early college, Hirono had actually supported it, but the antiwar movement and the atrocities happening on the ground in Vietnam changed her mind.

Sen. Hirono: I began to question our country. And so I also protested the war and I began to think of a political engagement as a way to make social changes, but never as a candidate myself, though. It took me quite a while to become a candidate. It took maybe 10 years after I started - I ran my first campaign in 1970 and I did not run for office myself until 1980. And by this time I had gone off to law school after spending five years out of school after I got my B.A. I went back to school because I decided I'm going to stay in the political arena, I needed more credentials. A lot of women think that way - that we usually have to bring a lot more to the table in order to be deemed credible, I suppose. And the good thing is that women these days don't feel that way. And that is a good thing. So off I went to school, and I did not run for office myself until I had my law degree.

Caroline: Yeah, we do want to hear more about your time in law school at Georgetown. because the biggest challenge that you cite from that time was coming from this nonconfrontational atmosphere of Hawaii, and you sort of collide with this much different culture of speaking and engaging at Georgetown. So so how was it different, and how did you grapple with that difference?

Sen. Hirono: Well, I always knew that there were a lot of people who were more vocal than I was. And so, of course, law school that's writ large, a lot of competitiveness and vocalizing and all of that. And so that that is definitely not a comfortable thing for me. So I spent a lot of my time hoping never to be called on. But one group that I did - I gave a lot to was the program that I was in. They had a program that was a semester program that worked on actual real life situations. And there, I really put a lot of myself into it because it was real. I wasn't just sitting around intellectualizing or whatever on cases and all that. These were actual things I worked on. And so I was very good at it. And the professor who headed that clinical program said that Mazie would have had the highest grade, but she just refused to participate very much in the seminar portion. And so he gave me a B plus. He said I would have given her an A, but for that you know part. But by the way, Georgetown has has honored me with the recognitions at the alumni events and all that. And my one of my classmates, who is a big Georgetown supporter, he looked at me, he said, “Mazie” — as they were giving me this award — and he said, “you know, we thought that our classmates” — generally males — “we thought they would follow in their fathers’ footsteps in Congress.” And he said “It turned out to be you.” And I said, still waters run deep. Do not judge - basically do not judge a book by its cover. But a lot of women and certainly an Asian person like me, we've encountered low expectations often.

Cristen: That was definitely the case in 1980, when Sen. Hirono won a seat in the Hawaii State House. She was one of just 10 women in the legislature.

Caroline: Were you prepared for the sexism you encountered there? Because, I mean, you had to deal with people calling you the Ice Queen.

Sen. Hirono: Well, I didn't mind that actually, being called the ice queen. That that made me laugh. This is something that a lot of women experience, and how do you deal with it? And also, I realized that just because I had a law degree didn't mean that they were all going to listen to me. So I learned to be very strategic in how I went about things. But I had a reputation in the state legislature as being a very tough legislator, and I was very effective. I may still hold the record for getting more of my bills enacted into law, at the time that I ran for lieutenant governor and governor, that was the case. So I was very good at what I did witout playing what you call the political game of just trading, horse trading and all that. I sought to convince people to my way of thinking by knowing my subject more probably than the - my colleagues and persuading them that they should come along with me. And a lot of times they did.

Caroline: Yeah, you could say that Sen. Hirono was pretty good at what she did. During her time as a state representative, she got more than 120 bills enacted into law. Her success rate depended on forming alliances, especially with the other women in the House - much to their male colleagues' chagrin.

Sen. Hirono: Women are very strategic in how we get things done. And so that means that we're really smart about how we can get things done and realizing that a male ego can be a very fragile thing. Ha! It makes me laugh. And this is one of the reasons that I write in the book that when I first was elected to the state legislature, we wanted to push through a lot of bills that we knew that women and families in our state wanted. But the guys wouldn't really vote for it. And I said, we're going to start a women's caucus. And there were they said, well, why do you want to do that? Don't you want to work with us? Why do you want to separate yourself? And you know, we said, well, OK, but as our bills continue to not get passed, I said we're going to start the bipartisan women's caucus. And we did.

Cristen: With their powers combined, that caucus expanded the rights of women and children. They amended Hawaii’s rape law and helped create a fund for survivors. They increased tax credits for childcare. They also boosted job security for employees who took family leave.

Caroline: For the next 20 years, Sen. Hirono plowed ahead in Hawaii politics. She went from state rep to Lt Gov. She lost a race for the first time when she ran for governor. But pretty soon, she set her sights on Washington — specifically, the seat in the US House of Representatives formerly held by trailblazing Rep. Patsy Mink.

Cristen: In 2006, you ran for and won the late Patsy Mink's congressional seat. She was the first woman of color elected to Congress and is best known for spearheading Title IX. She was a total Unladylike icon. And one of one of my personal favorite anecdotes about her was from 1970 when apparently a Democratic colleague of hers insisted that women could not be president on account of the raging storms of monthly hormonal imbalances. And she went on the record basically calling this person out and pointing out how - what nonsense that was. And I just love to see it because it was also happening at a time when, like, I think it was probably a pretty radical statement for her to to make. So I just had to ask what what kind of a role model was Patsy Mink for you in your political career?

Sen. Hirono: She was a very strong person who actually had a more supportive reputation nationally than she did in Hawaii because she was very vocal, very confrontational, that was not necessarily rewarded in a woman in Hawaii. I can tell you that. Patsy was a - I find her to be such an inspiring person because she was so far ahead of her time.

Cristen: When Sen. Hirono became the first Asian-American woman elected to the US Senate in 2012, she said: “I know I stand on the shoulders of those who came before me. I stand on Patsy’s shoulders.”

Caroline: We’re going to take a quick break. When we come back, Sen. Hirono tells the men of America to shut up and step up.

Cristen: Don’t go anywhere.

[Stinger]

Sen. Hirono: I was on the floor of the Senate not too long ago. I was talking with Dick Durbin and I had a - we were coming up in the Judiciary Committee on a bill that I wanted. It was my bill, and we were going to mark it up in committee. And he said that the Republicans are going to have all kinds of amendments. What do I want to do with them? And I said, you know, under normal circumstances, we would try and work it out. And but I said “These are not normal circumstances, so fuck them.” And Dick Durbin said, “I hate it when you use technical terms that I have to look up.”

Cristen: We’re back with Hawaii Sen. Mazie Hirono. And yes, she just dropped an f-bomb on this podcast! Pretty soon after the 2016 election, Hirono earned a reputation as one of the Senate's most outspoken critics of President Trump and his Republican cronies.

Caroline: Even stage 4 kidney cancer couldn't hold her back. In 2017, while still recovering from intensive cancer treatment, Hirono made sure she was back in Washington to save the Affordable Care Act, which she had helped draft — and lambast her Republican colleagues for their failed attempt to kill it.

Cristen: In Heart of Fire, you write about how a lot of your career instincts towards politeness and civility sort of just fell away during the Trump administration. And.

Sen. Hirono: Yes.

Cristen: At one point you write, “In doing so, I have had to shed all the expectations others may have placed on me as an immigrant, a woman and an Asian-American.” Was that a conscious sort of metamorphosis?

Sen. Hirono: Well, no, because I've always considered myself to be a very determined person. And even during my time in the legislature and otherwise, I would say things that would take people aback. And so there you have it. But it wasn't the kind of vocalization that I came to the fore with Trump because, one he is the biggest bully of them all. And I really dislike bullies. And I recognize that, you know, you have to stand up to them. Trump is a misogynist and admitted sexual predator. He's a liar and he should resign. That was in 2017, relatively shortly after he got elected, I’d say. And so that was that was a breakthrough to show that. And and I realized how important it was for someone like me to use the avenue that I had to speak up and speak out. And so I just speak cleanly. I call him a liar. I don't say he stretches the truth. You know, I tell Bill Barr you should resign. And every once in a while, I swear, kind of often. I say, I you know, I've said to people, look, with all the horrible things from this Trump administration and the constant assaults and the body politic, if you don't - if you're not moved to swear once in a while, you're not paying attention.

Caroline: That’s for sure.

Caroline: One of the moments where Senator Hirono spoke off the cuff and people listened was during Brett Kavanaugh's Supreme Court confirmation hearings in September of 2018. Hirono was one of the 22 members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. That put her front and center for the proceedings.

Cristen: Then as soon as Christine Blasey Ford's sexual assault allegations became public, the press immediately focused on Hirono and her three female colleagues on the Judiciary Committee. All of a sudden, it was oh, what do the WOMEN think about all of this?? How will the WOMEN respond to it??

Caroline: The senator was having none of it.

[News CLIP]
Sen. Hirono: Guess who’s perpetuating all of these kinds of actions. It’s the men in this country. And I just want to say to the men in this country, just shut up and step up. Do the right thing — for a change.

Cristen: That hot take went viral.

[CLIP - news clips waterfall]

Caroline: Lindsey Graham even called back to it during one of the Kavanaugh hearings.

[CLIP]
Lindsey Graham: I know I’m a single white male from South Carolina and I’ve been told I should shut up. But I will not shut up...

Cristen: Senator, that sentiment of shut up and step up so perfectly encapsulated this ongoing problem of especially when we talk about MeToo, and issues around sexual harassment, assault and sexual violence, it is considered a quote unquote women's issue, and women are the ones who get asked about it. And senator, you can probably hear the frustration in my voice.

Sen. Hirono: Oh, yeah we women should be sick and tired of having to explain stuff, you know, that men should take responsibility for.

Cristen: I just

Sen. Hirono: Well, for one thing, I'd like men to I'd like men to stop behaving this way. And then if they do, they should clean up after themselves, but they don't. And so these are and I'd like to see some changes there. And I'd like guys to decide that they’re not gonna act this way. But it's one of the reasons that with the me MeToo movement that I decided that there's such a there was going to be a backlash on me too movement. And they it's hard enough for women to come forward and and talk about their terrible experiences. But all of that was going to there is going to be a big push back. And I remember when Trump said, oh, yeah he fears for his sons. And, I just thought, oh, my - well, I think I swore, but. I said, my gosh, you know, as though as though women sit around cooking up allegations against men, we have other things to do. But that was what was in his statement, that he's so scared now for his sons, who probably, if they take after dad, God knows what they're up to. So we need to be continue to continue to have to contend with this kind of behavior. And we just need to call it out.

Caroline: How does having a Democrat in the White House affect your approach to speaking out and speaking truth to power and holding that power accountable?

Sen. Hirono: I'm so glad that we now have a president, a vice president who are caring human beings. At a time when that AAPI community feels under siege and very vulnerable, that President Biden has spoken out in no uncertain terms. So it is a relief that we don't have to have a president who has empathy, who cares, who speaks to that. And I will I will speak up against though in disagreement with the things that Joe Biden does to a group of us, met with him yesterday and he said, if you disagree with me, you should let me know, and and I will take him up on it. And in fact one of the areas that's come up is having to do with refugees, and he is not going to allow the number of refugees that he had originally said he would allow into our country. And refugees are a different category than asylum seekers. They've already been vetted. And there are groups in our country who are prepared to help the refugees come into our country and to be able to live and work in our country. But he is going back to a very low number. He's going back to Trump's numbers. And so he will hear from me and from others that he needs to do better.

Cristen: President Biden apparently DID hear that criticism. Soon after we interviewed Sen. Hirono, the White House announced it would raise the number of refugees allowed into the country. But as of this recording, they haven't confirmed by how much.

Caroline: Well, senator, those are all of the questions that we had written down for you. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you would want to emphasize for Unladylike listeners?

Sen. Hirono: I think it is really important for women to speak out and they don't have to be they don't even have to speak in complete sentences, because sometimes I think I don't speak in complete sentences. But the feeling is there. The message is definitely there. And it is important at a time like this to especially for the AAPI community to speak out. And they are. I've never seen so many AAPI people on TV and on news in my entire life than now. I think it's especially important for women to not be afraid of their what you would call the productive rage and also not to fear being disliked. I have a whole cadre of Fox News people who totally dislike me. Doesn't bother me.

Cristen: Well senator, we do ask all of our guests this one final question. What is the most unladylike thing about you?

Sen. Hirono: Well, considering that I don't even care about being ladylike or not, but I don't go out of my way to rage at people or anything like that. Probably that that I swear to people, to their faces.

Caroline: And we appreciate that you do.

Cristen: Yes

Sen. Hirono: Yes, I would say especially to people who deserve it. I mean, I don't randomly swear at people. It's quite focused.

Caroline: Exactly. It's focused, it's directed. It's intentional. Senator, thank you so much for making the time to talk with us.

Sen. Hirono: Thank you. It's been fun.

Caroline: Yeah this has been so much fun.

Cristen: You can find Senator Mazie Hirono on the floor of the Senate lolzz! Her memoir Heart of Fire: An Immigrant Daughter’s Story is out now and available at your local bookstore.

Caroline: You can find us on instagram, facebook and Twitter @unladylikemedia. You can also support Cristen and me by joining our Patreon; you’ll get weekly ad-free bonus episodes, listener advice and our undying love at patreon.com/unladylikemedia.

Cristen: Nora Ritchie is the senior producer of Unladylike. Gianna Palmer is our story editor. Shruti Marathe transcribes our tape. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzin. Mixing is by Andi Kristins. Sound design and additional music is by Casey Holford and Andi Kristins. Executive producers are Peter Clowney, Daisy Rosario and Unladylike Media.

Caroline: This podcast was created by your hosts, Cristen Conger

Cristen: And Caroline Ervin of Unladylike Media.

Caroline: Next week …

Laurie Santos: We'd do much better in life and even perform better at work, as parents, whatever, if we gave ourselves a little bit more self-compassion, you know, the simple act of kind of being mindful of where you're at, recognizing that you are a human and part of your common humanity is to not be perfect all the time and to kind of give yourself a little bit of kindness and grace, you know, the same kindness you would get from your best friend when you call them and tell them you're burning out, they wouldn't be like, well, push yourself harder. You know, they'd be like, take a break, dude. I'm like, let's go for that manicure. Whatever you need to kind of do that for yourself.

Caroline: We are bringing you our second installment of Ask Unladylike. This time we invited on special guest Dr. Laurie Santos and host of the podcast Happiness Lab to chat about toxic positivity and how to emerge from the pandemic with our happiness intact.

Cristen: You don’t want to miss this episode! Make sure you’re subscribed to Unladylike. Find us in stitcher, spotify, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Caroline: And remember, got a problem?

Cristen: Get Unladylike.