Transcript | Ask Unladylike: Unvaxxed, Unfriended?

[UNLADYLIKE THEME SONG]

Cristen: Welcome back to Unladylike. I'm Cristen, and we are here for another edition of Ask Unladylike, where I open up the mail bag and the dms to answer your questions that Google. Well, Google will try, but I, I don't, I don't recommend it. And before we get to this week's set of brand new sparkling, dazzling, and, yes, enraging questions, I'm already coming in hot thinking about one of them in particular.

I wanted to share a fun fact follow-up From last Ask Unladylike where we talked about wedding culture and engagement rings and unlady Natasha shared: In Brazil, I'm half Brazilian. Both the man and the woman get engagement rings. They wear them on their right hands while engaged. Then symbolically transfer them to the left hands at the wedding.

So it's common for rings to be the simple, plain gold band that we think of in the US. As the man's wedding ring because of the influence of US culture, though this tradition is changing and engagement rings of the American genre are becoming more popular. Brazil is a very sexist country, but this is quite an egalitarian tradition.

And I love that fact from Natasha, except it's just another example of, of us culture ruining things. I mean, come on, what, what a beautiful, simple tradition of like, Hey, you know what? You are gonna get a simple band. You're gonna get a simple band. We don't have to worry about transporting them to the wedding. Something's gonna get lost. No, you're already gonna gonna be wearing them.

And then you just change the ring over to the other hand, and you don't have to  feel pressured to spend a bazillion dollars on a rock. Brazil, Come on, don't be like us. Please. Doesn't the world know at this point that you don't wanna be like us to put it in wedding terms? I mean, just say I don't, just say I don't.

And I do versus I don't actually brings us perfectly into our very first advice question of the episode. Kelly writes:

I have a question about a friend who had planned to come stay with us for a week and did not disclose in advance that she was unvaccinated. We didn't think to ask because she's the only friend we have who has chosen not to be vaccinated and we have a baby.

So we thought that we should ask her directly, but it just occurred to us to ask like a week before she arrived, and unfortunately we couldn't let her stay with us because we were not comfortable with exposing my baby to someone who was unvaccinated. And would've been traveling by airplane to come here.

When she arrived, she had made other plans to stay with other people in the area. We did end up going on a hike with her, and it was very awkward, and our relationship has really fizzled since then. We've had no contact. Essentially. I reached out by text a couple of times. I was really mad about the whole situation and that she would endanger the health and safety of our family like that.

And I don't know how she feels because she is not risk. Reciprocated or responded to my calls or to the few texts that I sent her. I feel like I wanna write her a letter. I don't know. I'm looking for some guidance and was wondering if you could help me puzzle this out a little bit and maybe the best way to go about this.

She's a dear friend. She was unefficient at our wedding, a very close friend of both my husband and I, and I'm really feeling the void of her friendship. And although I will always disagree with her choice to be unvaccinated, since we don't live in the same city, I'm not sure that it needs to be a problem for our friendship.

This was, I feel like, such a, Hot, hot, hot debate in 2021 and has cooled off somewhat this year. But Kelly's question really grabbed my attention cuz it made me wonder like, oh yeah, like what are the friendships like that have gone through the vaccination divide? And there was a widely publicized survey last year, which found that one in seven Americans said they would end a friendship over vaccination status.

And I have a feeling that all of us probably know someone, or maybe we have been the person who has either threatened to end a friendship or a family relationship, uh, or has completely cut off ties because of, because that person was unvaccinated and what I don't know from Kelly is whether there was any conversation at all about why your friend is unvaccinated, because a question for the group back to you all on ladies, is whether there is a difference — ok, just go with me here — between someone who is unvaccinated and someone who is anti-vax.

Obviously, anti-vaxxers are gonna be unvaccinated, but not every unvaccinated person is gonna be an anti-vaxxer because there are also health reasons for just one instance that a person might not want to or might not be able to get vaccinated.

Obviously, that at least didn't come up with Kelly and her friend. and I ask though about the distinction between unvaccinated and anti-vax, not because I am some anti-vax apologist. Listen, I am a head to toe, fully Pfizer boosted and blessed unlady over here, but Kelly. From what I hear, you don't want this friendship to end over the vaccination and especially now that pandemic threats like the, the immediate threat has diminished for the general public, I would say, listen, I'm not, I'm, I'm not Anthony Fauci alright.

Don't, don't alert the, don't send the CDC on me, ok. But in current semi post-pandemic-ish moment. Is there more room for some nuance here in terms of these, these friendships that clearly hit a wall in the thick of things and now what? Because I would guess that there are plenty of Kelly's out there who had the vaccine disagreement with a friend, it caused a major rift. Now things are opening back up and you miss your friend, and maybe you're asking yourself like, oh shit. Well, was it wrong to have potentially ended this whole relationship because of a vaccine? And I cannot give a blanket answer for that.

Again, because there are gonna be different reasons why some people are not vaccinated, and if you are a good friend and a close friend, I would hope, Kelly, that you all had some kind of a conversation around her reasons for not being vaccinated, and I'm honestly not . And I'll play a little bit of devil's advocate on your friend's side, because I gotta tell you, Kelly, you say in the email that you and your husband didn't even think to ask her about, uh, the vaccine because it turns out she's the only one of your friends who's unvaccinated.

Now, Kelly, I'm also, I don't know that you can maybe know that for sure, but if you are the person who is inviting someone into your home to spend time and meet your new baby, it's your responsibility to make sure that that person is safe to come into your home and be around your kid. Your friend, like it or not, whether it sucks or not, is not living for your new baby.

And could there be a chance that your friend thinks that you think she is just recklessly out here catching Covid and coming to bring it to your, your child, which I'm sure she is not like I, I think that there is just a lot of unspoken tension happening here and maybe she needed to cool off. Maybe you needed to cool off.

Clearly y’all were not getting through to each other whenever you saw each other in person, But short story, long. If you want this friend in your life and you feel the void, you gotta give her space to feel how she's feeling, first of all. And it sounds like she's feeling not very into you and beyond that, you need to have the uncomfortable conversation and hash, hash things out and see what's what from there, because until you are able to get uncomfortable with each other, I think the friendship is effectively over and whatever you do, don't tell her that the va that that, in that, in retrospect, maybe it's okay that she's unvaccinated because y'all are long distance anyway.

Because if I were, if I were having been booted from your house during a. I don't know that I would be all that happy to hear it. So Kelly, I understand your desire to wanna keep your child safe and to keep yourself safe and your husband, and I also think that it's possible to do that and build in some room for a little extra compassion and empathy.

And even yes, maybe, maybe, maybe some benefit of the doubt. The doubt to motivations, not the doubt to vaccine. Efficacy folks. Okay. It's not what I'm saying.

So please y'all, unladies, I am so curious to know who has experienced this, who is going through this — hello@unladylike.co or hit me up in DMs cuz I know y'all are gonna have thoughts and you might be mad at me.

Let's get out of the pandemic hell hole and into patriarchy. Hey, one frying pen into another, shall we? Okay, this next question comes from an unlady named Lydia. Lydia writes:

“I am currently a junior in college majoring in computer science. Shout out women in stem. Hell yes, if you don't know, 80% of computer scientists are males with females making up roughly 20% of the profession.

College has shown this to be true, and I am usually in a class of 20 to 40 students and almost every time I am the only woman. I love coding and feel mostly confident in my career choice as the topic gets me excited, but the numbers go against me. I'm worried employers won't take me as seriously or possibly reject me just because a man is equally as qualified.

That being said, how do I approach this field with confidence? How do I go into this career knowing there is a huge wage gap? I may be underappreciated and I am significantly less likely to advance in my career than men. The closer I get to graduation, the more anxious I get about my degree choice.

Oh, Lydia.

Ok. First of all, I just wanna validate your feelings and anxieties and what ifs you are on the precipice of this major transition in your life and questioning all of these things is understandable and healthy and , and probably you might just be a little worn out from three years of college outnumbered by all those computer science dudes.

So I feel you, Lydia. I feel. So hard, and I don't mean to sound glib, but when it comes to those very real sexist patterns in the workplace, yes, it very much applies to computer science and most of the STEM fields, but it's also kind of everywhere, even. Even in female dominated industries, like say social work, quote unquote pinked color jobs, men still tend to get promoted and paid more than women.

So some of this is fundamental baked in patriarchal Sexism through and through, and now might also be a great time for some kind of anti-capitalist awakening because whatever you do, please just do not, Do not start working for a company that calls itself a family. They are not your family. And take Amy Puller's advice instead and treat your job like a bad boyfriend cuz he's not thinking about you as much as you are thinking about him.

And that is, that's really just triggering way too many memories for me in this very moment. Now, Lydia, your core question was, How do I approach this field with confidence? And that word confidence really jumps out because in the odds and 2010s and the girl boss feminism of it all, the lean in era, there was so much conversation and frankly, still is about the gender gap in confidence that if only women walked into male dominated workplaces with as much confidence as men. 

If we just projected, kind of fake it till we make it, then that can push us ahead and break all of the glass ceilings, hopefully with gloves on so we don't cut the shit out of our hands and be careful to not take on too much of that kind of girlboss feminism. The whole bootstrapping, you can do it. Hustle, hustle, hustle, like it's all in you. A very individualist approach, especially to careers and jobs because. Again, a lot of these issues are institutional and we're also talking right now about gender in a vacuum. I mean, there are, there are all sorts of identity layers to this that can complicate.

That math and those odds that you're seeing stacked up against you. So remember , remember to not just blame yourself for feeling maybe unprepared for what's ahead because you sound to me, Lydia, like someone who is kind of clear eye going in saying, Hey, I really love to do this and I know it's probably gonna be challenging because there is a a lot of bullshit that I'm gonna probably encounter.

And that is so good to know going in. It is smart to go ahead and, uh, the sooner you can learn that the work world is not a meritocracy, the better. And when it comes to the confidence piece of it, get this. More recent research on gender and confidence in the workplace has found that even if women walk in, you know, projecting as much self-confidence as men rating themselves as, as confidently as men do, it does not equally transfer to power and influence in the workplace.

Now for men, The more self-confidence they project, the more that is correlated to influence for women, the more self-confidence they project, not necessarily more influence. Because you know the factor for women that weighs more than projected or apparent self-confidence is perceived warmth. The women who have the most power and influence in these workplaces, are the ones who are perceived as the nicest and the warmest and the most approachable.

So again, so Lydia, my ultimate advice to you is to reconsider whether confidence is what's missing for you, because I think what you are seeing, what you what, what awareness is bubbling up in you right now is all of the institutional bias and bullshit that is baked right into these systems. All the confidence in the world, my unlady friend is not gonna make that any easier To navigate, what will make it easier are things like seeking employers that have salary transparency.

Looking at places where you have diverse leadership from the top, and also be sure to talk to people, women specifically, who are entry level. Fortunately at this point, there are more ways that you can parse out what a supportive workplace and more supportive workplace, a healthier workplace might look like and things like that where there are clear goals, salary transparency, things like that is really what you wanna look for, rather than just constantly looking to yourself and us all collectively perpetuating this myth that confidence is a cure all.

Man, I'm sounding really contrary this episode, but I'm gonna go with it.

Oh, speaking of confidence, y'all, eh, if, if I sound worked up now, wait till the end of this question because Sarah wrote me a letter that has me spinning. And since we are, you know, we're having so much fun in hyper male dominated industries, we're gonna stay in that space. But whereas Lydia is coming in entry level, Sarah has established herself. She has made it. Hell yes, but guess what, friends? Uh, the patriarchy doesn't disappear. Here we go. Sarah writes:

“I work in a heavily male dominated industry. Surprise, the craft cocktail industry. Mm. Well, I would never generalize all the men in my field. I've met quite a few who don't know how to deal with a woman that neither wants to fuck or mother them.”

And I just want, I, I just gotta say that again because Sarah, that is such a perfect line.

“I've met quite a few who don't know how to deal with a woman that neither wants to fuck or mother them.”

I could already hear the sounds of unladies typing out, typing out their stories of that. Ok.

“I have a rather rarefied skill set and get somewhat frequent mentoring requests. This is fine. I'm happy to share my knowledge with those who are interested. What's not fine is the amount of mothering I'm expected to. I believe mentoring is about professional development, not unconditional love and personal support. I do try my best to support my colleagues, both professionally and personally, but the amount of pushback I get when I try to set personal boundaries is astounding.

For instance, some of my colleagues have actually referred to me as mom when I remind. That I'm not their mom, That I'm not anyone's mom. They tend to get really offended. They object that this is coming from a place of love and respect, and I should appreciate it, but I don't, instead of respecting my boundary, they complain about how I have hurt and rejected them.

Is this just me? It can't be right. How can I mentor without moming? Thanks for listening to by TED Talk.”

Sarah. Oh, Sarah. This email made me so mad. Who the fuck called you Mom? Oh God. Like that one really sent me an in in larger. Corporate workplaces, women getting stuck in middle management is something that is a theme that has come up before on ask on Ladylike and middle management is really where, uh, something that I've heard called Corporate Mommying tends to happen where women get sandwiched into these support roles where they're both like managing.

People from below, but also having to manage. All this shit that's happening from people above them. And it can kind of be the worst of both worlds and you often end up just cleaning up other people's messes, hence the mommying. Now what Sarah is describing in this far more insular craft cocktail industry world sounds, sounds like a microcosm of that maybe.

Um, and I am so sure, Sarah, it is not just. You and my hot take advice on this is don't mentor these dudes. If someone cannot get through their heads, why it is just not appropriate to call you mom, to address you as mom. They're not gonna be the kind of mentees who are teachable that you want to spend your time on because you, Sarah, you are investing your time into them and.

I read this email over a couple of times yesterday and I kept getting angrier and angrier. Not at you, Sarah. Not at you at all. My even hotter take is, Sarah. This is, This is your time. You are giving them for free. Women with ratified skill sets. Like you, Sarah, successful women are constantly getting asked for their free time, and I tell you what, if men are asking.

For your unpaid labor and emotional labor on top of that? No. No. If you want to provide professional development opportunities, maybe there is some kind of webinar, for lack of a more exciting term, that you could put together some kind of paid course that you could. Set up that you can tell those guys, they can go take after they pay $250 to soak up your masterclass genius.

But to me, if you wanna stop being their mom, stop giving them your time. Like the, the one thing that I don't know is how many of these men are lateral to you or even potentially more powerful than you in the industry where like, these are relationships that you want to maintain. For your own professional development, but if these are just people who are coming up and sucking you dry, Sarah, save yourself.

Mix a drink and forget about 'em, which I know is so much easier said than done. But Sarah, if, if anything, I hope that my anger on your behalf well maybe be some encouragement to reclaim your time reclaim. Your time because anybody who wants you to mom them needs to get a fucking grip before they find a mentor. Period. God, I'm so mad, so mad.

My final question slash piece of advice is, are there up and coming women and non-binary folks who could really use some mentorship and also role modeling, like I think that there are, are ways like that, that you can feel fulfilled in your mentoring and also help create a healthier environment in this industry. Cuz again, you know, if, fuck, you're not a mom, you're not their babysitter I'd I say, last call for those fellows, cut 'em off, if you will. T

hose are all the cocktail puns I have.

[AD BREAK]

CRISTEN: And finally we have a question from Letitia. Letitia writes:

“For the last year, I've been grappling with when to stop the hair dying process and just accept my natural salt and pepper look. At 38, I transitioned to a lighter base, so my demarcation line wasn't so obvi. Now at 39, I'm considering taking the plunge and just stopping all together.

The lighter base helps, but who am I kidding? My husband and daughters say, I'm too young. Society says I'm too young, But I am so sick of the three hour, $200 plus trips to the hairdresser with roots that grow out so fast and just don't lie. Am I still dying for society? My husband? Or myself. Should I start going every four weeks or just stop already?

Thanks for your consideration. Your almost secretly gray listener, Letitia.”

Letitia, if you have not listened to last year's unlady, like three parter on hair, which includes an episode about hair color, and yes, going gray, I highly recommend you do that. And from one. Semi-secret salt and pepper gal to another.

I feel you on the, the back and forth, you know, before I had any grays coming in. It's so easy to say, Oh my God, like I'm a feminist, and why? Why would I keep dying my hair? And you know, that's the thing about feminism and aging. The older we get, the older we realize like. Uh, that, uh, that it, that it can be a little more complicated than that for me.

The person who insists, well, I shouldn't say, he doesn't tell me what to do with my hair because I think he knows better than that. Uh, but the person who seems the most aghast every time he, he takes in my graying hair anew is my husband. Just kidding. I would divorce him. It's my dad. My dad, who has been fully gray as long as I can remember, and he's about a head taller than I am, so he is at just like the perfect eye line to be able to get just like the full scope of my grace. He can see gray I can't even see, and I swear to God, y'all, every single time I see him, he will look at me with. It's like it frightens him when he notices like the light catches it and he's like, Oh my God, you're, you're so gray.

And I think I've talked about this before on the podcast. If I have, I'm sorry to repeat myself. Um, all of this to say that kind of pressure is real. Like even though I can laugh about it and like, yeah, it's my dad and. He, he and my mom have very antiquated notions of how a, a woman should look. At the same time, I always leave, you know, checking myself in the, the rear view mirror as I'm pulling out the driveway, peeling out racing to leave, I'm looking at myself being like, Well, do I look like a, a ghoul? Am I frightening?  In the way, you know, my, my dad seems to react.

It's easy. It's easy for it to get in, get in our heads, and it's also change and it's a different look. And there is nothing flattering about the growing out process and Letitia. My advice to you since you asked for it is why not stop cold weather is coming up and it's gonna be winter hat season.

What better time, Leticia? I mean, I don't know what kind of climate you're living in. Um, also, I could just probably assume that , it's gonna be unseasonably warm, but allegedly winter hat weather is coming and that could be the perfect time. To quit spending that money and spending that time and going back and forth and just finally give yourself the chance to find out a, what your hair looks like as it grows out.

Because it might be a more flattering pattern of gray than you realize and maybe gives you a little bit of room to feel more comfortable in your gray space. in your vibrant, your gray vibrancy before springtime rolls around and it's time to take that wool hat off. And show the world your silver crown, although who knows, New Year's might come and you say, I hate this and I wanna dye it back.

And the thing is, Letitia, that's also fine too. But I think you wanna find out what it's like not dying it. And I think you should give yourself a chance. And if your husband and your daughter. Keep ragging you for it. You need to set up a sexism jar. It's like a swear jar, but it's for any time they tell you that you are to this or to that to do whatever with your hair.

They have to go and put $75 in the sexism jar. Um, and yes, your child included, uh, so she might need to get a job. And maybe they will learn to keep their opinions to themselves. And also, you know, for your daughter, it could be a college savings fund!

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CRISTEN: Ok, unladies, that is all of my advice and now it's time. For yours. Are you someone who has gone through the vaccination friendship breakup and you have advice for Kelly, or maybe you are an unlady in STEM, maybe you are an unlady in comp Sci specifically, who might have some words of wisdom for our listener, Lydia, or any other?

I would also love, love, love to hear from any unlady in the craft cocktail or wine and bev industry who might be able to speak more directly to the mom of it all. I would love to know any of your thoughts, your hot tips, your brilliant insights. You can email the show at hello@unladylike.co. You can also DM me @unladylikemedia on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and yes, a little place called TikTok.

And if you love Unladylike and want to support the show, there are two ways that you can do that. You can first, please, please, please go on to Apple Podcast or Spotify and give Unladylike five stars. Rate and review us. It makes a huge difference for people finding the show. I cannot emphasize that enough. Please go. Give me, give me your five stars. Give me your kind comments. Actually, you don't even have to leave a review, I don't think. You can just say five stars, and I'm outta here.

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Unladylike is a Starburns Audio production, written and executive produced by me, Cristen Conger. Rebecca Steinberg is our senior producer.Katherine Calligori is our associate producer. Engineering and post production is by Ali Nikou. Our music is by Flamingo Shadow, Amit May Cohen and Sarah Tudzen.

And til next time…

CRISTEN: And who the fuck called you mom?!